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Lojanica 15-05-2014 16:00

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 (Post 1542106)
Thanks to you guys doing the analysis for sticking to your guns in spite of some pretty harsh criticism from a few who really have tried to shut down every analysis thread along the way. I've learned a few things, and that has value. I'd rather learn from forums like this than through experience, though I learn plenty that way, too.

It's not about knocking someone else -- it's about looking at an event honestly to see if there is something the next guy can do to be better prepared.

Agreed. Let's start a new thread entitled "Revel Stoke" the story of a timbered passage. Then no toes get stepped on. Leave out guns, religion, single versus mono, and manufacturer's references and it ought to be good for 100 posts. But with a little reality show qualities it skyrockets......

boatman61 15-05-2014 16:01

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
[QUOTE=minaret;1542075]
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61;1541998New folk always seem to estimate ETA's on hull speeds of their boats.. however these are speeds under 'PERFECT CONDITIONS'.. most times you'll be happy if you average 100-120nm/day on a long passage... 32ft to 54ft..[/SIZE
[/FONT]
Panama to Marquesas took me 37days on a 54ftr... a friend of mine crossing at the same time as me took 54 days in his 36ftr..
Folks.. the boat will only go as fast as the conditions permit so don't make assumptions all will be peachy coz you say so..



Any exceptions to that rule, in your opinion? You know, like, multi hulls?



450 gallons diesel, 540 water here. Tanks just cleaned and tested. ;)

My last trip proved multi's are not immune to things happening to screw things up..
Good call on the 'cleaned and tested'.. lost dog knows how many gallons of diesel and water into the bilge on the OZ trip.. all the tanks were shot..

Jim Cate 15-05-2014 16:10

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Not sure what this proves, but in our previous boat, 36 ft LOA, 29 ft LWL we made the passage from Cabo to Hiva Oa twice. First time 21 days, second time 19 days, about 3100 miles logged. Neither trip had any significant motor time. Crew was Ann and I (We were younger then!).

Passage times are highly dependent on two factors: the winds that you actually encounter (not what the pilot charts say they will be) and how hard you drive your boat. The former is out of your control, the latter is not. Slowing the boat, or deviating from the desired course for comfort will increase the time, sometimes to a surprising degree. Eric's slow progress was likely due to both less than ideal wind conditions for his boat, and trying to ease things for crew comfort... easy to see this from his comments.

For folks trying to predict passage times, Evans Starzinger has posted on CF (and I think documented in their website) some guidelines for realistic predictions. IIRC it comes out something like 2/3 times hull speed for an average... check it out.

Jim

mbianka 15-05-2014 16:48

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Not much has been said about the rescue team that climbed aboard Rebel Heart other than well deserved accolades from Eric and his family and many of us who add to appreciate their efforts. I know they train for these things but, it just seems incredible when you think about it.

1) Parachute drop an inflatable with an outboard from an airplane.
2) Rescue crew also jump from said airplane at an altitude high enough to parachute.
3) Hit the water hopefully close to the inflatable with gear.
4) Lose parachute, swim with rescue gear to inflatable in rough seas.
4) Get on inflatable and hope the outboard starts.
5) Pick up other rescue personal still in the water and then head to Rebel Heart.

Just seems to me that there were so many places things could have gone really bad and these guys could have been left floating 900 miles out in the ocean. Making their feat so much more amazing. :thumb:

JPA Cate 15-05-2014 17:10

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I remember when we were planning the trip from Cabo to the Marquesas, one which we have done only twice, Jim knew that leaving from further south in Mexico would give one a longish period of lighter airs than we wanted to chance (about a week), and this was in a boat that could sail well in light airs.

Now, I'm wondering whether a Cabo departure point would have given the RH a significantly better wind angle? This question really relates to choice of boat, and all the heavy displacement Taiwan built double enders seem to me to be at a disadvantage in the light wind strength situations. And it would seem that if you're planning on running a water maker, you would need a lot of "extra" fuel, especially if you "need" to motorsail, for comfort or to maintain a previously calculated minimum days' run, which means either added tank capacity or jerry jugs on deck, which we've never done (just the one of water lashed in the cockpit).

Maybe, if one has a heavy displacement boat, you'd want to think a whole lot about what light air sails could move your boat satisfactorily off the wind in the 10-15 knot of wind speed range, if you want to make the Mexico to Marquesas run. [ To SailorBoy1, Mexico to Marquesas is probably the most logical stepping off point for north American west coasters who intend to cross the Pacific or circumnavigate. Its main disadvantage is that you have to go back up to Cabo if you've been enjoying the mainland, upwind and up current.]

Ann

chall 15-05-2014 17:16

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate (Post 1542125)
Not sure what this proves, but in our previous boat, 36 ft LOA, 29 ft LWL we made the passage from Cabo to Hiva Oa twice. First time 21 days, second time 19 days, about 3100 miles logged. Neither trip had any significant motor time. Crew was Ann and I (We were younger then!).

Passage times are highly dependent on two factors: the winds that you actually encounter (not what the pilot charts say they will be) and how hard you drive your boat. The former is out of your control, the latter is not. Slowing the boat, or deviating from the desired course for comfort will increase the time, sometimes to a surprising degree. Eric's slow progress was likely due to both less than ideal wind conditions for his boat, and trying to ease things for crew comfort... easy to see this from his comments.

For folks trying to predict passage times, Evans Starzinger has posted on CF (and I think documented in their website) some guidelines for realistic predictions. IIRC it comes out something like 2/3 times hull speed for an average... check it out.

Jim

Thanks Jim. That is good information and advice.

Terra Nova 15-05-2014 17:32

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy (Post 1542058)

The preventer attachment likely had been compromised.

A problem like this comes up--it would be wonderful to have instant web access.

MarkJ 15-05-2014 18:16

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbianka (Post 1542144)

Just seems to me that there were so many places things could have gone really bad and these guys could have been left floating 900 miles out in the ocean. Making their feat so much more amazing. :thumb:

I agree with you. Those guys must be off their rockers! Hopefully they get something to pin on their chests because its a pretty damn brave thing to do... :flowers:

I've done a couple of parachute jumps including one into water and it wasn't fun... And that was into a lake curtesy of the army. I'd never do it again lol

You'd be a bit pissed off if you landed 900 miles out and the outboard didn't start :D

savoir 15-05-2014 19:24

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541825)
You still don't get it smack daddy. You can pontificate all you want about "issues" but you still haven't separated the infinite symptoms you find in stories from the overarching root cause, that which you can truly benefit from. That is why I can guarantee, lay down money, you will make serious errors in the future. You aren't preparing yourself in the correct way.

And the correct way is . . . . . . . ?

Mycroft 15-05-2014 19:37

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
The only think I would like, and that word is "like" NOT "demand", would be a nice long post, (hopefully in its own thread), from Eric on the lessons that he has learned from this episode.

What would Eric have told his pre-voyage self? THAT information would help the rest of us would-be passage-makers.

Jim Cate 15-05-2014 19:39

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 1542200)
I agree with you. Those guys must be off their rockers! Hopefully they get something to pin on their chests because its a pretty damn brave thing to do... :flowers:

Too right! However, I think that they train to do this sort of thing with an added complication: folks shooting at them! This may have seemed easy to them... maybe!

Jim

Snore 15-05-2014 20:44

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Finally decided to catch up on this thread...

@Rebel Heart- thanks for having the balls to be straight and honest. That candor helps everyone learn, not easy being in your spot. Noth'n but respect for that.

@ the naysayers- you guys must be desk jockies. Anyone who has worked at-risk jobs understands the value of a good failure analysis. And that is exactly what 90% of the thread is.

@ Smack and others- thanks for doing the research and asking the questions.


For the rest of us another big lesson- be careful what you post. Posts do come back to bite ya!

thuss 15-05-2014 23:09

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Eric, FWIW having done similar length passages in the pacific on almost the same boat (HC 38), I'd set off with my wife and young kids (and have) and would have pulled the epirb right when you did. I'd call in help and ditch our boat in a second to go with my daughter if she needed serious medical attention.

If I'm ever in the same situation I sure hope I won't be that ******* husband that thinks staying with the boat is more important than staying with the family.

You're a role model, not for living the dream, but for making the hard choices (which are the ones that really matter)!

Pelagic 15-05-2014 23:16

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
+1 that should never be in doubt

Jimbo485 16-05-2014 00:28

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Why didn't he accept Atoll's offer to sail the boat to land?

minaret 16-05-2014 00:40

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbo485 (Post 1542351)
Why didn't he accept Atoll's offer to sail the boat to land?




More importantly, why didn't he thank Atoll for making it? I assure you it was not in jest, his bags were packed...

Jimbo485 16-05-2014 01:05

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Alex would have had RH in tip top condition by the time they saw the Marquesas appear over the horizon.

atoll 16-05-2014 01:41

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbo485 (Post 1542363)
Alex would have had RH in tip top condition by the time they saw the Marquesas appear over the horizon.

lol,not the first time i have sealed up deck leaks with canvas,wood strips and a few nails!

i did recieve a pm from eric thanking me for the offer,though unsure as to wether the base commander in san diego passed it on to eric at the time as an option.

the catamaran that we proposed to use to get there however made it in 16 days ,panama-nuka hiva averaging over 200 miles a day!

Jimbo485 16-05-2014 01:50

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Nice run. Took us 17 days.

mbianka 16-05-2014 05:09

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate (Post 1542247)
Too right! However, I think that they train to do this sort of thing with an added complication: folks shooting at them! This may have seemed easy to them... maybe!

Jim

No doubt. Still with Eric's boat in Force 5 conditions it was no swim off the beach for the rescue crew. 18 to 24 MPH winds, 6 to 9 foot seas. I was thinking in those conditions if I untied my dingy and let it drift away from the boat say 100 feet and then jumped in the water in with a lifejacket and a pack of gear and attempted to catch up with the dingy and climb aboard. I doubt if I'd ever make it. Yet, that's the first step for these guys after they hit the water. Amazing!

minaret 16-05-2014 06:45

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by atoll (Post 1542368)
lol,not the first time i have sealed up deck leaks with canvas,wood strips and a few nails!

i did recieve a pm from eric thanking me for the offer,though unsure as to wether the base commander in san diego passed it on to eric at the time as an option.

the catamaran that we proposed to use to get there however made it in 16 days ,panama-nuka hiva averaging over 200 miles a day!




That's good! Glad to hear it.

Spleen 16-05-2014 07:00

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mbianka (Post 1542443)
No doubt. Still with Eric's boat in Force 5 conditions it was no swim off the beach for the rescue crew. 18 to 24 MPH winds, 6 to 9 foot seas. I was thinking in those conditions if I untied my dingy and let it drift away from the boat say 100 feet and then jumped in the water in with a lifejacket and a pack of gear and attempted to catch up with the dingy and climb aboard. I doubt if I'd ever make it. Yet, that's the first step for these guys after they hit the water. Amazing!

Yes, the one experience we had (and nothing of the scale of the rescue obviously) was when we rented a cabin on a lake with a dock and the 14 foot John boat came untied as a windy thunderstorm was approaching and DH jumped in thinking he could swim (not a strong swimmer) to the retreating boat, hop in and bring it back. Well, of course you can imaging the lightening, winds, small whitecaps on this smallish lake (probably a reservoir) and it was clear the boat was outpacing DH by a lot. Thank goodness a neighbor saw all of this and in the lightening, got his boat, rescued DH and then brought him to our boat and towed it back.

This story reminds me of how we, who are happier on water than on land, are indebted to each other. We help before we are asked, we rescue our fellow boater when in trouble and we pass it on when we can after we have received the help. I think about times when we came upon beached marsh fishermen, stuck on a sand bar with one who had cut his foot badly on something, where it took a good two hours to try and get the boat undone when we had to give up and let the guys try the next day when the tide came in. I remember when, as noobs, we ran out of gas on Lake Pontchartrain in New Orleans (duh!!! Slaps forehead) and required a towing from a guy who clearly was trying to make a quick run for that last cast of the night and instead had to help us get back to the dock.

In that note, I dare say (suggest, ask) that Eric help us out by giving a meaningful thought process of everything in retrospect because of this debt we have to each other. In the circle of us helping others and others helping us, it seems wise to have an account of what could have been done differently, both for the sake of the ones who will follow the coconut run and for those who may need to divert to help another boater. I think it would be a form of Eric "paying it forward"...

Absolutely my experience and stories are on a significantly much smaller scale than those crossing oceans... But the points are the same....

My thoughts on this...

Spleen 16-05-2014 07:22

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snore (Post 1542283)

@ the naysayers- you guys must be desk jockies. Anyone who has worked at-risk jobs understands the value of a good failure analysis. And that is exactly what 90% of the thread is.


For the rest of us another big lesson- be careful what you post. Posts do come back to bite ya!

Yes, good failure analysis... Exactly.

And on the second note about be careful what you post... Yesterday I was googling "sail boat + roll over" and some posts from CF came up. I was reading them and came across this post from years ago from Rebel Heart: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ting-7845.html

"I broached once in San Diego harbor in my old Ericson 32. Totally freaked me out. Didn't lose the mast or roll over, but someone saw the keel come out of the water and my boom was wet. She recovered nicely. Rounded up into the wind, and slammed back upright again.

Man, that freaked me out big time."

Sometimes, I guess, the learning curve is steep....

captain58sailin 16-05-2014 07:35

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
There is a huge difference between failure analysis and blame laying, judgement passing, or criticism thinly disguised as inquiries about what went wrong. Good failure analysis is essential to preventing a future recurrence of the same incident. I like the philosophy of "fix the problem, not the blame". I have a feeling that RH will never have that type of problem again.

SaltyMonkey 16-05-2014 07:37

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snore (Post 1542283)
@ the naysayers- you guys must be desk jockies. Anyone who has worked at-risk jobs understands the value of a good failure analysis. And that is exactly what 90% of the thread is.

This isn't an airplane review with a limited commercial exposure. There are thousands of boats, each design different, each owner different, each situation different. You can list till your eyes pop out of your sockets, and think you have analyzed and learned something, but next round the dice will spin and something else will need to be listed, and you won't be any closer, any better from it. Its non-deterministic and non-linear.

You're missing the bigger meta-problem which you need to work on, where you can actually make a difference and stem this re-accurance. It takes training and discipline and its hard work but it can be done. This has not been addressed in this thread. This *might be addressed in your mentioned post risk situation but it hasn't been even brought up.

And btw, just a reminder that this was originally about the NPR program. And the bail still came down to the baby's health.

weavis 16-05-2014 08:08

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by captain58sailin (Post 1542563)
There is a huge difference between failure analysis and blame laying, judgement passing, or criticism thinly disguised as inquiries about what went wrong. Good failure analysis is essential to preventing a future recurrence of the same incident. I like the philosophy of "fix the problem, not the blame". I have a feeling that RH will never have that type of problem again.

Im not sure I understand.
Can you tell me what the problem was?

captain58sailin 16-05-2014 08:29

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Maybe I am reaching too far back. I wasn't referring to the most current posts. If I am out to lunch, I apologize. I have seen several statements of fact here that have been twisted and distorted in the interpretation and restated as fact. Hell I am probably totally out of line, wouldn't be the first time.

weavis 16-05-2014 08:45

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by captain58sailin (Post 1542585)
Maybe I am reaching to far back. I wasn't referring to the most current posts. If I am out to lunch, I apologize. I have seen several statements of fact here that have been twisted and distorted in the interpretation and restated as fact. Hell I am probably totally out of line, wouldn't be the first time.

HI Cap

Its not even that I disagree with you. I think if a problem is known then a solution can be applied. I dont think for one second you are out of line. I do see though that no one moves on in their lives until they recognise, accept and change certain attitudes or behavior and learn what they didnt know before to prevent a situation from happening again for the same reasons.

In all this chat and static, are we refering to "Rebel Heart" (the boat that is no more), or are we looking for reasons why the boat is no more and the events from way back that led to the culmination of the voyage when circumstances collided?

goboatingnow 16-05-2014 08:47

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I dont think now there is much point in this debate, There remains considerable confusion as to exactly what happened to the boat ( as opposed to the other events). now its just:deadhorsebeat::deadhorsebeat:


dave

robert sailor 16-05-2014 08:53

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Don't like to but I agree with Dave.

SaltyMonkey 16-05-2014 08:53

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis (Post 1542589)
In all this chat and static, are we refering to "Rebel Heart" (the boat that is no more), or are we looking for reasons why the boat is no more and the events from way back that led to the culmination of the voyage when circumstances collided?

We are looking at the whys not the whats, and the whys go back much further and deeper than a ubiquitous list of physical bullets, and these have not been discussed.

weavis 16-05-2014 08:57

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
This is not an official enquiry. This is a voluntary discussion by the captain of the vessel that was abandoned open to all, and as such hard questions have been asked.

With it NOT being an official enquiry, absolutes do not have to assessed. There is no material evidence to examine. The boat has gone. There is recollection and notes made and a series of events recorded, which all came together in the known outcome.

I have read and re read this thread several times. I have discussed with experienced professional mariners the actions they would have taken in certain conditions, and they agreed independently on certain tactics and methodology.

I have 'some' boat building experience, but also asked professionals who are experts in their field what they thought. I found out my surmises were wrong…

One of my colleagues here gave a medical opinion regarding childrens illnesses and quoted percentages based on studies. It is not my place to agree or disagree, but merely to consider what I would do in making my choice and whether or not his comments would affect my choice.

I looked at the preparations made to make the boat ready for a world cruise. I looked at the captains sailing experience and I looked at the crew members who would be on this trip.

I am responsible for my life. Part of the natural survival instinct for man, is to evaluate situations that we voluntarily place ourselves in.

Even before ANY voyage begins, and I am crew, I ask myself some questions.
  • How much experience does a Captain have in handling boats?
  • How much experience does he have in undertaking the particular cruising that is being proposed.
  • What kind of personality is he or she.
  • Is there arrogance on display.
  • How much planning for the worst scenario has been undertaken?
And the big one........ Do I trust this person based on everything I know with my life?

Im not going to place a judgement on what went wrong in the events that unfolded. I dont know what really happened. This discussion did not answer any of the questions.

It is not unknown for humans to be economical with the truth, be it personally or in order to survive the rest of their life, its just the way it is. As humans we lie to ourselves more than we lie to others, and that is a whole other subject in itself.

Eric has explained from his perspective what happened. It may or may not be the whole truth. It however, is his truth and he will stand by it because that is what he sees. We have to take him at his explanation because as Rich Borens said, "he was there".

For the rest of us, with our experience of life, our abilities, our individual expertise, our suspicions of circumstance, our natures....... we will form an independent opinion based on all we have observed. It may be wrong, but it is where we will stand.

Im not seeing the outcome of this trip as the ‘problem’. It was the end of a series of events that started a long time ago.

Even though Eric did everything "RIGHT" in the combination and circumstances at the end, it didn’t matter.

Some decisions and attitudes lead a person down a path that are only one way. There are no “if onlys” and “ I could have done it except for………..’ You get one shot at this life thing and you gotta make a choice.

I don’t know Eric the same I don’t know people I read about in books or watch on TV. I see actions and results of actions. It doesn’t affect ME in any way. It does however make me think about attitudes, motivation, personality and preparation, and how MY projects and outcome depends on these things.

Unless we learn to be totally honest about ourselves and our real abilities, which are much MORE than whatever situation we find ourselves in (boat handling or knowing seafaring protocol aside) - the lesson will not have been learned and will happen again and again.

9 out 0f 10 mishaps happen for personality traits. Impatience, anger, sadness, disappointment, fear, arrogance, tiredness, lack of knowledge etc.

Its not for me to discuss publically what conclusions I have drawn regarding the episode, and frankly the only one who cares is me because it is not about this situation, it is about making sure that I do EVERYTHING possible to avoid being in the SAME situation given the same circumstances.

It doesnt mean I wont be shipwrecked....... It means it wont be these circumstances that got me there if I learned from This episode.

For that lesson, I am grateful to Eric and relieved for them all.

It is part of the human nature always to judge others very severely and, when the wind turns against us, always to find an excuse for our own misdeeds, or to blame someone else for our mistakes.

There is no need to blame Rebel Heart collectively for anything. Now they need to inwardly reflect and work it out what went wrong.

Many have given pointers here. Its up to them to take on board the hardest criticisms and see if………….. just if there is validity in the comments.

SaltyMonkey 16-05-2014 09:14

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis (Post 1542598)

Im not seeing the outcome of this trip as the ‘problem’. It was the end of a series of events that started a long time ago.
...

Unless we learn to be totally honest about ourselves and our real abilities, which are much MORE than whatever situation we find ourselves in (boat handling or knowing seafaring protocol aside) - the lesson will not have been learned and will happen again and again.
...
9 out 0f 10 mishaps happen for personality traits. Impatience, anger, sadness, disappointment, fear, arrogance, tiredness, lack of knowledge etc.

Thats it. You got it. Look inward. :thumb:

Prairie Chicken 16-05-2014 09:36

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Thanks Weavis. Well said.

oldragbaggers 16-05-2014 09:48

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Excellent post, Weavis. This is the heart of the matter.

SaltyMonkey 16-05-2014 10:08

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers (Post 1542625)
Excellent post, Weavis. This is the heart of the matter.

Brilliant post. Meta-thinking :thumb:

Paul L 16-05-2014 10:56

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis (Post 1542598)
...
9 out 0f 10 mishaps happen for personality traits. Impatience, anger, sadness, disappointment, fear, arrogance, tiredness, lack of knowledge etc.
...

This seems to be devolving into some meta-physical philosophy debate. I don't know where this 9 out of 10 statistic came from. Crew fatigue is a major component of many accidents at sea, if not most. But tiredness isn't a personality trait.
RH took more risks than most that attempt this passage. They ended up on the bad side of those risks. Whether it is 1 in 10 or 1 in a 1,000, when you end up on the 1 side of the equation it isn't good. 1. Taking a child so young was a significant risk. 2. Taking crew that did not have passage experience was a risk. 3. Having the only crew majorly engaged in caring for two young children was a risk. Many Pacific passage makers accept risk #2 and a fair number risk #3. Only few do risk #1. RH has stated that the boat condition had little effect on the final decisions. I mostly accept that as reasonable, although things may have been different if more reliable communications had stayed in place. Since they would have been communicating with stateside medical, I suspect the typically overly cautious medical personnel would have continued to encourage the evacuation, so the outcome may not have been any different.

weavis 16-05-2014 11:11

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul L (Post 1542660)
RH took more risks than most that attempt this passage.

Paul. I think you answered your own question.

Spleen 16-05-2014 11:30

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Someone (sorry, I can't remember who) brought up the point that this age group of RH's kids' ages is probably the best age to take kids on a passage (in THEORY) because this is the age at which they are most dependent and happy with family and family alone.

This was a good point and I give points for it.

HOWEVER, as a parent, the risk vs. benefit ratio for that idea vs. what could happen, to me, is outweighed in favor of the "too risky" (and as played out in reality), especially given the point that one/two crew had to deal with the kids as opposed to doing duties on deck.

(Insert smilie beating horse)

I personally barely feel comfortable with bringing small kids on the Robalo, even when it is a 20 minute "put put" around sheltered water for them to say they were on a boat. Too much can happen and I don't enjoy the continual watching of the kids and the unease it causes ME. :devil: I realize my boat has no cabin where their boat did. Theirs is a lifestyle and mine is a hobby.

This is not a judgement of them, merely stating my opinion that it is risky to bring that age of the baby on a long passage. I think about her rolling around the cabin and think about how many calories she was burning just existing for those 900 miles and I start to think about how toddlers don't have that much reserve to sustain that rate of calorie expenditure (and illness, which is why babies can get very sick very fast)..... Toddlers burn a lot of calories anyway but they sleep hard to restore themselves and the baby (Lira?) couldn't get solid sleep either...


Just seems like maybe they didn't think that far about this particular topic.... It is a good point for others to think about who are thinking about bringing small children on extended trips.

SaltyMonkey 16-05-2014 11:35

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul L (Post 1542660)
This seems to be devolving into some meta-physical philosophy debate.

Weavis implied psychological in what he said. Nothing meta-physical about any of it. Mind and body are the same.


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