Cruisers & Sailing Forums (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/)
-   Our Community (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f129/)
-   -   Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged) (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f129/call-for-help-this-american-life-merged-125942.html)

SaltyMonkey 15-05-2014 06:23

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
You still don't get it.

You can list all sorts of "obvious" facts but you're still missing the bigger picture.

This is especially clear when you read the certain so called "experts" and "circumnavigators" here who have made incredible mistakes (yes this is true) and still don't get the bigger picture. The root cause for all these sailing issues has not been addressed in this thread. You will continue to list the obvious and miss the root cause, on others people stories and in your own.

If this appears cryptic it really is not. All these perpetual problems only lead to one generalization.

Spleen 15-05-2014 06:51

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I hate that I am going to be called a troll or a one hit wonder-- truth is I have been following this story since the rescue and I have been fascinated with it. We are inshore and coastal motor boaters-- I hope to stick around since I found this forum.

I read several passages of Eric and Charlotte's blogs and I have poked around on his Facebook page. I get that he is tired of the press, but what bothers me (if I may be bothered) is that I have never seen him state something he did wrong or should have done differently. (Aside from a sort of flip "I wouldn't have left the dock...")

I think these threads would die quicker if he would just admit something, like should have had another deck hand, or hammocks so the small kids wouldn't have been bounced around so much (have any of you read the parts about the baby not sleeping for days because she was literally rolling around all over the place and they had to stuff her in a car seat (I think) and wedge her in the dinette?) or tested the boat somewhere other than Sea of Cortez.

I think it is obvious the boat was full of rot. I'm also curious, because I don't think Eric has stated, where the kids were when the boat supposedly rolled.

It seems like some of you just want everyone to assume (because it has been assumed since the beginning??) that Eric in some way screwed up, as many sailors will. Ok. That is fine, but Eric is very young to have experienced the worst possible scenario (aside from loss of everyone and the boat) for a boater and, thus, it seems important to dissect the situation to find the most likely things that happened. It is interesting.

I get that Eric is sensitive about this and seems to be tired of the detailed questions. I do feel like he has been slightly evasive in his answers, but I also know from experience that when you are inputting plenty of stimuli and are exhausted, you do get a little foggy on things.

I hope this thread continues because I personally find it worthwhile and interesting. I think Eric means well and is a dreamer (as plenty of us are) and looks at the possibilities but I also think he is young and foolish and didn't do due diligence with his boat inspections and repairs. It's not judgement-- some people are this way. He is lucky it all worked out and he was rescued and yes, calling for help was the correct thing to do.

I'd like to see him admit something he wished he had done differently, would do differently in the future or some sort of meaningful introspection of the situation. I haven't seen this.....

LakeSuperior 15-05-2014 07:06

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I'll post this question again since it may have been missed with the interest in boat rot.

The other question I had was related to logistics. From earlier posts there seemed to be not much fuel carried, 30 or 40 gallons as I thought I read you had taken a tank out of commission.

Since you were going slower than planned, 900 miles in 11 days with 2000 miles remaining how was your fuel margin to run the water maker for the remaining 22 plus/minus days? Did you have backup water tankage? Did you feel there may be an up and coming issue with this?

bob_77903 15-05-2014 07:19

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate (Post 1538329)
"Judge not, that ye be not judged also."

Ann

:popcorn:

smackdaddy 15-05-2014 08:11

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 1541736)
...Some of those wanting to close the thread down think there is nothing to be learned. Why then are some of the most experienced people on the forum - whose who have sailed most and 'know' most - still think there is a need to learn from this incident?

Mark - as usual, spot on. And you (and a couple of others) should know. You've done it.

From what I've been able to see, I think you hit the nail on the head here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 1541736)
The sick child, the family situation, and the voyage were difficulties enough without having to look at another situation. The decks.

In the dry climate of LA and San Diego the minor leaking every time it rained would have appeared a small problem - "all boats leak". And the lack of good, deep, ocean passages for crew training and boat "shakedown" - a term I hate - would have meant the deck problem didn't show itself.

If we think that there was that much water coming through a rotted deck each day whilst on a broad reach (not close hauled) then those little leaks must have been numerous, or extensive.

In the "quarter" argument Eric avoided answering, directly, where EXACTLY was the water ingress. Actually two part question, where was it you tried to fix, and, were there others. He did say at the deck hull joins, but only the "quarter" not where on the quarter. (it opens a myriad of questions: was the water going through the deck there or further forward and flowing under the teak above the ply to the quarter?) This isnt a criticism of him as he was probably getting more than exasperated at the line of questioning and didnt see the relevance.

If theres a small constant infow every time a wave comes on deck, and the knowledge that the deck is teak on ply, one may deduce after 900 miles that the boat may not last the full 3,000 miles! And then when a big bang happened and the in-flow increased to 70 gallons per day one would really begin to cast their mind back on the integrity of the whole untested deck.

It would certainly appear that this boat was not sound. RH, for whatever reason, is unwilling to provide details...and the details he does provide keep changing (e.g. - he says he was hove to then says he was on broad reach, he says he could have kept going for 3 weeks then says they were running out of water, and now we shouldn't take what he's presented on his blog as all that accurate because he's got secret details that throws that stuff into doubt, etc.).

The reason this is an extremely valuable case study is, as has been mentioned above a couple of times, the never-ending "bluewater boat" debate has taken a new turn here. Hans Christian is always held out as a boat you want to take across oceans. But the reality is - these are old boats and old brands...and there is very real potential danger in that alone.

I have been trying to get some detail on why the deck failed to the point of threatening the lives of the crew (notwithstanding the child's sickness). We've looked at chainplates, solar panels, preventer blocks, deck attachments, etc. Something that was on "the starboard quarter" that would have ripped out causing this hole. So I was looking into the preventer issue. And here is a pic of how RH had his preventer rigged in previous passages:

https://therebelheart.com/resource/Wi...ileId=21035502

Granted, this is the opposite tack from what RH mentions at the time of knockdown, but I've watched his videos and he had the same setup seen here on that opposite tack. As you can see, there is nothing anchored on/to the "starboard/port quarter" cap-rail track, stanchions, lifelines, etc. The preventer line runs forward. So, assuming he was configured as he was usually configured, it certainly doesn't appear that anything got ripped off the deck in this area causing the structural failure.

Furthermore, RH says that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 1538706)
The vertical stanchions were still in the deck, so I don't think it wrenched the deck if that's what we're talking about. Oddly enough, the outboard was actually off it's bracket as well (starboard side), so you can imagine the amount of heel and wave energy you'd need to dismount an outboard that was clamped onto a piece of wood on the rails.

A few days earlier I had lazily put the fishing rod lanyard onto the outboard when I removed my fishing pole, and the outboard in the morning was just gliding around in the water by a piece of thin dacron.

So the forces involved here - even according to RH - certainly didn't appear to be enough to rip any of the hardware out of the deck. And even though it knocked the OB off the mount, it wasn't enough force to break "a piece of thin dacron".

So where does that leave us? If you take his blog at face value - it appears to leave us with a structurally unsound deck that started failing the first time it was truly tested...900 miles off-shore. The forces in what RH describes as merely moderately rough were enough to start pulling this old "bluewater boat" apart.

Unless RH wants us to completely discount his blog posts, there is no question this boat had serious rot issues. And it is clear that the deck had either been incorrectly built (no composite as described on other like boats) or modified by someone to exacerbate the rot issues.

So what's the lesson here? I think there a TONS of them. But one of the biggest - at least to newbs - should be that the old "bluewater" brands are not inherently safe for bluewater passages. Many of them, like this one, are very old boats. And you have to be ready to completely rebuild entire sections of the boat if there's ANY question of its integrity to achieve the level of safety you believe you're getting with such a boat. "Leaky teaky" is no joke in the middle of an ocean.

My personal takeaway (or agenda) from this is that I think I'm a lot like RH. I'm currently preparing for some off-shore cruising by doing many of the same projects he did. So I'm carefully looking at what he did and how - and what his expectations were as he went through things (at least according to his blog). I'm doing this so that I can hopefully make better decisions for myself - and not miss something big. More importantly, I've become much more willing to call in expert help - and not be too much of the DIY guy I usually am when I get in over my head. It's not worth it.

Will I still screw up? Sure. I'm definitely no expert myself. I'm just trying to see where I can minimize the impact of my screw-ups. That's what learning is all about. And from this incident I am absolutely paying more attention to the structural integrity of my boat (among many other things). My agenda is not to bash RH - it's to learn from him. Period.

So, in conclusion...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541742)
You still don't get it.

blah...

If this appears cryptic it really is not.

It's not cryptic, monky. It's just wrong.

Saltyhog 15-05-2014 08:11

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 1541736)
I just wanted to thank Smackdaddy and fryewe and the others who have pushed the thoughts on this sinking along in the face of some pretty hostile response from some forum members, and to thank Eric for some good answers to questions.

Some of those wanting to close the thread down think there is nothing to be learned. Why then are some of the most experienced people on the forum - whose who have sailed most and 'know' most - still think there is a need to learn from this incident?
Jim and others who have done this particular passage, Mexico or Panama to Marquesas, all know that it is the longest passage, (or is St Helena - Caribbean) and often done reasonably early in the cruising life.
When I was doing it it gave me the heebie geebies. Right in about the middle of the passage the boat is 3,000nms from any mainland and still half that to some pin-prick of an island without marine facilities, even the closest shipping lane is over 1,000nms away (China to Panama). Its the only time I have felt the real emensity of the earth. In the middle of a big, empty, vast ocean. I was at the wheel (AP on) and just wondered what would happen if I fell over and broke my leg. The answer could well have been death from something so simple.
Fortunately the feeling left by the end of that watch, but the point is EVERYONE must feel it.

If everyone was lost on Rebel Heart there would have been a Coronial (or other) investigation, but because, thankfully, everyone was saved the is no investigation except for the inquiring minds on some lame interweb forum. In my mind this thread is an excellent example of what we can do to educate the new people, the advanced sailors, and the ones who have been there done that... because none of us have 'been there' for everything.

The sick child, the family situation, and the voyage were difficulties enough without having to look at another situation. The decks.

In the dry climate of LA and San Diego the minor leaking every time it rained would have appeared a small problem - "all boats leak". And the lack of good, deep, ocean passages for crew training and boat "shakedown" - a term I hate - would have meant the deck problem didn't show itself.

If we think that there was that much water coming through a rotted deck each day whilst on a broad reach (not close hauled) then those little leaks must have been numerous, or extensive.
In the "quarter" argument Eric avoided answering, directly, where EXACTLY was the water ingress. Actually two part question, where was it you tried to fix, and, were there others. He did say at the deck hull joins, but only the "quarter" not where on the quarter. (it opens a myriad of questions: was the water going through the deck there or further forward and flowing under the teak above the ply to the quarter?) This isnt a criticism of him as he was probably getting more than exasperated at the line of questioning and didnt see the relevance.

If theres a small constant infow every time a wave comes on deck, and the knowledge that the deck is teak on ply, one may deduce after 900 miles that the boat may not last the full 3,000 miles! And then when a big bang happened and the in-flow increased to 70 gallons per day one would really begin to cast their mind back on the integrity of the whole untested deck.

As I said, I had the heeby geebies out about there (on the Galapagos -Marquesas run), but my boat was sound, Nicolle was loving it and no children on board.


So yes, I think there is a lot we have learned, a lot of conjecture that has been useful to have, a lot of food for thought for everyone from those who circumnavigated, or blown many of the oceans to those who have not bought their boat yet, and to even those who can't sail, and those dreamers who enjoy reading to exercise the muscles of their imagination.

We must all imagine likely and unlikely scenarios so we maybe better equipped to handle them when we are at sea... even if our voyage is only off the coast by 2 miles.... remember that man killed just last week in Long Island Sound on a 3 hour cruise.

So, once again thanks to those who have usefully added to this thread, and to Eric for his input. I feel we maybe all just a little bit safer for it.


Mark

Excellent post! :thumb: I'm one of the more inexperienced people Mark alluded to. It's really good to know what some of the more troubling challenges folks have suffered through and how (or if) they worked through them. I think a lot is in the mindset at the time. Vicariously experiencing the problems and challenges can do a lot to improve your own expected response in similar circumstance. I do think there is a lot to be learned here.

mbianka 15-05-2014 08:25

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jangann (Post 1540355)
One thing I think they should be commended for is calling the CG way before things were really bad. Lots of people wouldn't do that. Getting on the Sat phone, calling and appraising the CG of what was going on, probably quickened the response to their EPRIB signal greatly, as the CG already knew they were on the edge of trouble. A lesson for us all.

Long live the cruising family.

Not only that but, the Navy Rescue crew also may have also known what they were heading into. No doubt they are trained for a wide range of circumstances. But, knowing the situation on board ahead of time may have prepared them better for what they were flying and swimming into. Namely that the primary patient was a one year old child and they could make sure they had the proper medicines and dosages for a child that size instead of say just adults.

On another aspect of the Rebel Heart saga. I've been wondering if the only person who might be enjoying this cruise might have been the three year old daughter. I'd be curious to hear her account. :) Too young and naive to know what was really going on and how bad the situation really was. Her take might be interesting if she has one.

SaltyMonkey 15-05-2014 08:27

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by smackdaddy (Post 1541811)
It's not cryptic, monky. It's just wrong.

You still don't get it smack daddy. You can pontificate all you want about "issues" but you still haven't separated the infinite symptoms you find in stories from the overarching root cause, that which you can truly benefit from. That is why I can guarantee, lay down money, you will make serious errors in the future. You aren't preparing yourself in the correct way.

SV THIRD DAY 15-05-2014 08:34

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
So here is how the speculation and rumor mill works:

We go from a little info and a few photos to jumping to the conclusion that the deck was rotted away, the boat wasn't sound for sea, and heck...everyone knows those damn HC's are rotting piles of crap.

It's how it works on the internet, take a little piece of info, build a story line around it, and then based on a speculation storyline come to a gospel conclusion. I have to say this is halarious to watch.

See experts HAVE to be experts even if they don't have the data, facts, or info in front of them to know what they are talking about. Eric (who was there remember) said the Rot in the photos of his blog post wasn't an issue in the incident, yet now the verdict has been reached that the boat was unfit for sea, rotting away and boom, now anyone looking to buy a HC will be told:

"**** you can't buy a HC...remember Rebel Heart was lost at sea due to deck and hull/joint Rot".

It's gotta be true...I made it up and read it myself in a online chat room.

Having used this thread to dodge my own boat projects by reading I think every post, I have no idea where people could have gotten the impression that anyone was suggesting shutting this thread down...because I can't find it. What people have complained about is the tone taken by some posters as if they were running the Salem Witch Trials.

Spleen 15-05-2014 08:44

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
This is the Internet equivalent of sitting around the local java hut discussing and speculating about a sea rescue.

I don't see claims to the contrary...

goat 15-05-2014 09:12

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate (Post 1541500)
Is anyone else here curious about smackdaddy's putative boat? and his agenda here?

He is the one who brought up the chainplate location question and posted the chartlet of the boat claiming to not know where the starboard quarter was. The ways he's developed his participation here makes me wonder whether he's a writer, using this thread to mine info, or has some other hidden agenda?

I'm pretty sure Smack's just wondering if he'd be better off with a steel "Brent Boat" :whistling: ;)

cwyckham 15-05-2014 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541825)

You still don't get it smack daddy. You can pontificate all you want about "issues" but you still haven't separated the infinite symptoms you find in stories from the overarching root cause, that which you can truly benefit from. That is why I can guarantee, lay down money, you will make serious errors in the future. You aren't preparing yourself in the correct way.

So why don't you tell us the big secret?

Is it 42?

smackdaddy 15-05-2014 09:27

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goat (Post 1541842)
I'm pretty sure Smack's just wondering if he'd be better off with a steel "Brent Boat" :whistling: ;)

Don't get me started you cheeky bastard. Heh-heh.

NRosenthal 15-05-2014 09:27

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
So I own a 30 year old cold molded boat. Yup, ply wood decks over wooden frames. No fiber glass on the interior surfaces. Ok every surface is saturated with west epoxy, just sayin’.
Guess I better walk away from this girl. Not up to offshore sailing.
But wait, the boat doesn’t leak, bilges are dry (dust, need to vacuum). Dry even when breaking water all over the decks.
Now I think back to a boat I sailed to Hawaii and back in the late 70’s. Plank on frame, laid teak decks (not over plywood), and oh yes she leaked. Decks leaked, hull leaked, we pumped every 3 hours the whole passage. Crazy youth!
So based on some opinions, should I just walk away from my current boat and buy a plastic one?
Bone dry 45’ blue water boat for the taking please inquire, will trade for Hunter or equal.

smackdaddy 15-05-2014 09:50

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NRosenthal (Post 1541849)
So I own a 30 year old cold molded boat. Yup, ply wood decks over wooden frames. No fiber glass on the interior surfaces. Ok every surface is saturated with west epoxy, just sayin’.
Guess I better walk away from this girl. Not up to offshore sailing.
But wait, the boat doesn’t leak, bilges are dry (dust, need to vacuum). Dry even when breaking water all over the decks.
Now I think back to a boat I sailed to Hawaii and back in the late 70’s. Plank on frame, laid teak decks (not over plywood), and oh yes she leaked. Decks leaked, hull leaked, we pumped every 3 hours the whole passage. Crazy youth!
So based on some opinions, should I just walk away from my current boat and buy a plastic one?
Bone dry 45’ blue water boat for the taking please inquire, will trade for Hunter or equal.

You crazy? No way you're getting my Hunter, dude.

But there was a particular Hunter 49 that came through an F10-F11 off Cape Horn with nary a scratch. I think their bilge might have even been dry. You might look into that one.

SaltyMonkey 15-05-2014 10:00

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cwyckham (Post 1541847)
So why don't you tell us the big secret?

Is it 42?

because you're not ready to believe.

take another guess.

oldragbaggers 15-05-2014 10:15

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541871)
because you're not ready to believe.

take another guess.

Oh.....I am so confused......

captain58sailin 15-05-2014 10:22

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
HCs have always had a rep for being a strong vessel. I have a 37 year old boat (gasp!), and I have every confidence in her. I may be proven wrong in the future, but I don't think so. That is not to say if one of the crucial systems fail, that I won't be in trouble. Trying to diagnose what failed at this point is just mental self gratification. The family survived, the Captain made the right call and they all came home in one piece. I believe if RH gets the time to reflect on what went wrong and look at it from all angles without self recrimination or guilt, he will be able to learn what really happened and learn from it and go on. As for the rest, you cannot fill a cup that is already full, so there is nothing to take away from the experience.

sailorboy1 15-05-2014 10:29

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
I ain't no expert. The lessons I'm taking away from this whole thing is:

- don't out into the open South Pacific in an old wooden boat with rot and leaks
- don't go out into the open South pacific with real young children
- don't go out into the open South Pacific as your first major crossing
- don't sail out in the open anywhere and not sail conservataly to keep stress on the boat low
-don't get in a hurry to leave or arrive at a port
- don't post on forums and be critical of others sailing adventures unless you are proven to be better
- be careful of how much you allow people into your life on forums and blogs
-regardless of how well someone writes and posts in a forum it doesn't mean they really know anything (that applies to books people like to quoter about all the time)
-while it is great to overcome fear and take off on a big voyage, there should still be enough fear remaining that you don't forget that you should have lots of it
-there will almost certainly be bad luck during a trip

I originally was willing to put this whole thing down to bad luck. But the more I read and think about it makes me believe it was a poor boat and sailing choices combined with bad luck. I also feel that a lot of past trash posts from Eric now seem hypocritical.

europaflyer 15-05-2014 10:37

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541725)
I feel very sad if you didn't already know all of this already, which can stand alone without any incidents you imagine.

This also goes for all the addendum's others are attaching.

There is nothing profound or different in anything you all list.

Oh help... clearly my sarcasm was far too subtle for monkeys! :D My point was that the only 'lessons' from this were things we all should know anyway, mainly because Eric did things pretty much by the book. Yes, of course leaky teakys can leak and if that's news to anyone then they have some learning to do. People have made far greater voyages in far leakier teakier things than Hans Christians, so no criticism meant here or in my previous post.

europaflyer 15-05-2014 11:01

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
But perhaps, as others have mentioned, the real lesson is that absolutely anything you post online can be used against you later... so be nice. And I try, really I do. :D

SaltyMonkey 15-05-2014 11:56

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by oldragbaggers (Post 1541877)
Oh.....I am so confused......

ask me offline

cwyckham 15-05-2014 12:02

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1541871)
because you're not ready to believe.

take another guess.

Definitely has something to do with the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then.

May His Noodly Appendages ever caress your sails!

cwyckham 15-05-2014 12:09

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1541881)
I ain't no expert. The lessons I'm taking away from this whole thing is:

- don't out into the open South Pacific in an old wooden boat with rot and leaks
- don't go out into the open South pacific with real young children
- don't go out into the open South Pacific as your first major crossing
- don't sail out in the open anywhere and not sail conservataly to keep stress on the boat low
-don't get in a hurry to leave or arrive at a port
- don't post on forums and be critical of others sailing adventures unless you are proven to be better
- be careful of how much you allow people into your life on forums and blogs
-regardless of how well someone writes and posts in a forum it doesn't mean they really know anything (that applies to books people like to quoter about all the time)
-while it is great to overcome fear and take off on a big voyage, there should still be enough fear remaining that you don't forget that you should have lots of it
-there will almost certainly be bad luck during a trip

I originally was willing to put this whole thing down to bad luck. But the more I read and think about it makes me believe it was a poor boat and sailing choices combined with bad luck. I also feel that a lot of past trash posts from Eric now seem hypocritical.

I agree with some of your take-aways and not others. I wanted to pick up on one point, though, that has come up a few times. It seems some people believe that Eric was sailing too fast and that one needs to be super conservative offshore.

First, his progress was pretty bloody slow overall. Not saying it's his fault, could have been the conditions. But he wasn't rocketing along by any measure.

Beyond that, though, I think that a prudent sailor keeps their speed up as much as possible without overstressing the boat or the crew. This is not a less is more situation. Extending the length of the passage will leave the boat exposed to risk for longer. That's risk of injury, sickness, storms, etc. When a climber crosses below a rockfall hazard, they do so as quickly as possible. The same principle applies.

In addition, most people have a bit of a love-hate relationship with crossings. It often leans towards hate the longer one is out. I will push my vessel as hard as I can to get there just for my sanity, as long as I'm not exhausting anybody or endangering the vessel.

Wind River 15-05-2014 13:07

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1541881)
I ain't no expert. The lessons I'm taking away from this whole thing is:

- don't out into the open South Pacific in an old wooden boat with rot and leaks
- don't go out into the open South pacific with real young children
- don't go out into the open South Pacific as your first major crossing
- don't sail out in the open anywhere and not sail conservataly to keep stress on the boat low
-don't get in a hurry to leave or arrive at a port
- don't post on forums and be critical of others sailing adventures unless you are proven to be better
- be careful of how much you allow people into your life on forums and blogs
-regardless of how well someone writes and posts in a forum it doesn't mean they really know anything (that applies to books people like to quoter about all the time)
-while it is great to overcome fear and take off on a big voyage, there should still be enough fear remaining that you don't forget that you should have lots of it
-there will almost certainly be bad luck during a trip

I originally was willing to put this whole thing down to bad luck. But the more I read and think about it makes me believe it was a poor boat and sailing choices combined with bad luck. I also feel that a lot of past trash posts from Eric now seem hypocritical.


I am no expert either, far from it, and since I can offer no relevant sailing experience to this, I have this thought.
I wonder where this thread would be if Lyra didn't get sick, but all the same boat breaking events happened and Eric limped Rebel Heart all the way to the South Pacific Islands like he implied he likely could have.

Would we be taking away lessons like:
- Prepare yourself and your boat the best you can and go for it.
- Sailors can overcome adversity when properly prepared.
- Don't implicitly trust your Sat phone or the provider.
- Don't dream your life, Live your dream. (Thanks Bob)
- You can be young and go cruising

I'm sure there are many more. This reminds me of a little of the closing argument in the movie "A Time to Kill". Instead of "Now imagine she is white"....substitute "Now imagine Lyra didn't get sick."

Would this change anything for you if (making the assumption) Eric completed his crossing in spite of these boat breaking events?

boatman61 15-05-2014 13:21

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior (Post 1541780)
I'll post this question again since it may have been missed with the interest in boat rot.

The other question I had was related to logistics. From earlier posts there seemed to be not much fuel carried, 30 or 40 gallons as I thought I read you had taken a tank out of commission.

Since you were going slower than planned, 900 miles in 11 days with 2000 miles remaining how was your fuel margin to run the water maker for the remaining 22 plus/minus days? Did you have backup water tankage? Did you feel there may be an up and coming issue with this?

This has nothing to do with Eric.. tho' some may see it as a sly pop at him.. but I don't do sly..:whistling:
This post above is a very good point for Newbie Voyagers to consider..
New folk always seem to estimate ETA's on hull speeds of their boats.. however these are speeds under 'PERFECT CONDITIONS'.. most times you'll be happy if you average 100-120nm/day on a long passage... 32ft to 54ft..
Panama to Marquesas took me 37days on a 54ftr... a friend of mine crossing at the same time as me took 54 days in his 36ftr..
Folks.. the boat will only go as fast as the conditions permit so don't make assumptions all will be peachy coz you say so..
In 2001 I did a 47 day non-stop SMX to Salcombe with 200litres tankage.. I still had 30+ left when I arrived..
I run a tight control on water at sea.. Baby Wipes to keep your body odours under control.. and a solar shower with 3litres twice a week.. be surprised how clean and un-smelly folk are away from land.. unless they've a glandular problem.. the 'Need for a Shower' is a combination of habit and 'civilized' paranoia..
Treasure your water.. lack off it will kill you in days.. lack of food a couple of months.. on the Pacific run rain is very rare till past the Marquesas and halfway to Samoa.. so don't bank on rain catchers.. they only work if it rains..:p
The best and cleanest way to catch rain I know is raise the boom to 75 degrees short of level using the topping lift and belly the sail a bit.. then hang a bucket at the goose neck.. some tubing and your jugs tied together underneath will allow you to siphon 1 litre a minute in a decent tropical rain squall..:thumb:

Nice post MarkJ... RH has been and gone.. nothing said will change whats done.. but those yet to come have much to learn from others mishaps..:whistling:
including mine..:p

weavis 15-05-2014 13:35

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 1541998)
a solar shower with 3litres twice a week..

Good Lord.. I couldnt possibly manage on less than 20 litres 2 x a day!!
Dont drink the filthy stuff... beer is good enough......:whistling:
A lot to be said for watermakers......... :thumb:

(I hide a couple of bottles of Evian water in my cabin in case of emergency.. Like when the Guinness runs out and there is only Bass.... )

Target9000 15-05-2014 13:48

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 1541998)
Nice post MarkJ... RH has been and gone.. nothing said will change whats done.. but those yet to come have much to learn from others mishaps..:whistling:
including mine..:p

“Learn from the mistakes of others. You can’t live long enough to make them all yourself. ” -- Eleanor Roosevelt

Steve W 15-05-2014 13:52

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Wind River, taking the sick child out of the mix is very interesting way to consider the remaining situation RH was facing, given the boat condition (rot, leaks, low power, small tankage, etc.) shown in the pics. If he makes it, he's a hero, if he doesn't....

sailorboy1 15-05-2014 14:00

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
To me if you take the sick child out of the mix and the boat makes it, every take away lesson I got from the trip still applies. But they still have the boat!

SaltyMonkey 15-05-2014 14:01

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis (Post 1542007)
(I hide a couple of bottles of Evian water in my cabin in case of emergency.. Like when the Guinness runs out and there is only Bass.... )

What else you hidin' in there and not sharing with your mates? Cadbury eggs? :D :D :D :thumb: :thumb: :devil:

weavis 15-05-2014 14:15

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey (Post 1542023)
What else you hidin' in there and not sharing with your mates? Cadbury eggs? :D :D :D :thumb: :thumb: :devil:

Shhh!!

atoll 15-05-2014 14:29

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
interesting to see how their web page has grown over the last month.
i guess any publicity is good publicity....if you want to be a kardasian...

18 april 2014

Webuka - Website worth calculator

Visitors daily :
1 781
-----------------------------------------------------------
Website market price
13 355 USD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly advertising income :
534 USD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alexa Rank of Rebel Heart - The Saga of the Rebel Heart :
224634
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Google PageRank of Rebel Heart - The Saga of the Rebel Heart :
2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Backlinks directing to Rebel Heart - The Saga of the Rebel Heart :
103


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
15 may 2014
Webuka Page Rank:
2.78
VISITORS DAILY :
daily visitors
1 855
WEBSITE MARKET PRICE :
website market price
13 914 USD
MONTHLY ADVERTISING INCOME :
monthly advertising income
557 USD
ALEXA RANK OF HTTP://THEREBELHEART.COM :
website global rank
215611
GOOGLE PAGERANK OF HTTP://THEREBELHEART.COM :
2
BACKLINKS DIRECTING TO HTTP://THEREBELHEART.COM :
backlinks
148
WEBUKA PAGE RANK:
webuka page rank
3.05

smackdaddy 15-05-2014 14:39

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Wow.

Someone pointed me to this thread:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post1332666

Where RH posted this on 6/9/2013 (while they were in Mexico):

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebel heart (Post 1332666)
Probably replacing it, I'm still on the fence. There are big sections of plywood (under the teak, above the beams) that are delaminated and can crumble in your hand. Maybe 10% of the deck, but of course in the hardest to repair areas.

To fix it I really need to pull deck fittings, pull the teak, and then epoxy/screw in new plywood to the beams, then lay up teak or glass-plywood over that.

The idea of putting the teak back down at that point just seems insane.

I stepped through his blog again from that date forward and don't see where any of this was ever repaired prior to their departure. As a matter of fact, a photo at the end of November shows the teak decks still there. This explains a whole lot.

I really don't know what else to say - other than I think everything worked out very well for this family...all things considered. Thank God they're safe.

Wind River 15-05-2014 14:42

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1542021)
To me if you take the sick child out of the mix and the boat makes it, every take away lesson I got from the trip still applies. But they still have the boat!


I guess my point is there may have been an entirely different lesson plan to learn from and therefore different lessons to learn. Not trying to take away valuable lessons that are being inferred to have been taught.

Steve W - Yep, Hero or zero.

goboatingnow 15-05-2014 14:52

Call for Help/ This American Life
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by weavis (Post 1542007)
Good Lord.. I couldnt possibly manage on less than 20 litres 2 x a day!!
Dont drink the filthy stuff... beer is good enough......:whistling:
A lot to be said for watermakers......... :thumb:

(I hide a couple of bottles of Evian water in my cabin in case of emergency.. Like when the Guinness runs out and there is only Bass.... )


Bass , someone drinks that, I thought it was toilet cleaner

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

minaret 15-05-2014 15:07

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
[QUOTE=boatman61;1541998New folk always seem to estimate ETA's on hull speeds of their boats.. however these are speeds under 'PERFECT CONDITIONS'.. most times you'll be happy if you average 100-120nm/day on a long passage... 32ft to 54ft..[/SIZE][/FONT]
Panama to Marquesas took me 37days on a 54ftr... a friend of mine crossing at the same time as me took 54 days in his 36ftr..
Folks.. the boat will only go as fast as the conditions permit so don't make assumptions all will be peachy coz you say so..



Any exceptions to that rule, in your opinion? You know, like, multi hulls?



450 gallons diesel, 540 water here. Tanks just cleaned and tested. ;)

captain58sailin 15-05-2014 15:11

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
When cruising under sail, I always feel that anything over 100nm per day was a plus. Made the San Diego ~ Nuka Hiva run in 23 days, 2700 nm by our count.

letsgetsailing3 15-05-2014 15:49

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 1541736)
I just wanted to thank Smackdaddy and fryewe and the others who have pushed the thoughts on this sinking along in the face of some pretty hostile response from some forum members, and to thank Eric for some good answers to questions.

Some of those wanting to close the thread down think there is nothing to be learned. Why then are some of the most experienced people on the forum - whose who have sailed most and 'know' most - still think there is a need to learn from this incident?

Thanks to you guys doing the analysis for sticking to your guns in spite of some pretty harsh criticism from a few who really have tried to shut down every analysis thread along the way. I've learned a few things, and that has value. I'd rather learn from forums like this than through experience, though I learn plenty that way, too.

It's not about knocking someone else -- it's about looking at an event honestly to see if there is something the next guy can do to be better prepared.

downunder 15-05-2014 15:54

re: Call for Help/ This American Life (Merged)
 
[QUOTE=minaret;1542075]
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61;1541998New folk always seem to estimate ETA's on hull speeds of their boats.. however these are speeds under 'PERFECT CONDITIONS'.. most times you'll be happy if you average 100-120nm/day on a long passage... 32ft to 54ft..[/SIZE
[/FONT]
Panama to Marquesas took me 37days on a 54ftr... a friend of mine crossing at the same time as me took 54 days in his 36ftr..
Folks.. the boat will only go as fast as the conditions permit so don't make assumptions all will be peachy coz you say so..



Any exceptions to that rule, in your opinion? You know, like, multi hulls?



450 gallons diesel, 540 water here. Tanks just cleaned and tested. ;)

To be really salty and bluewater here you need to have an old timber vessel, preferrably no more than 36ft, no motor its a sailboat, minimal tankage(definitely not 540gals, hell not even 540L) with a few cans on deck and definitely not a watermaker.

Informative post Boatman.


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:35.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.