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-   -   Schengen rules have changed (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/schengen-rules-have-changed-122641.html)

MBLittle 24-03-2014 10:25

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Another thing that I'm getting from EU citizens is that if it was easier for them to stay in the US longer, they'd be OK with exempting US vessels from Scengen. Is that fair to say?

Is it really that hard to obtain a visa for the states? Harder than it is to obtain a visa for each particular EU country someone wishes to visit(which won't cover all of the EU)? If given a visa from the federal government, are you not allowed to travel to ANY state, which is quite different than EU visas?

Seems to me that an EU visa for certain countries like OZ, Japan, US, Canada, etc that covers all EU partners would be an easy solution. One that doesn't put any more possibility of illegal foreign immigration more than a US visa would.

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goboatingnow 24-03-2014 10:27

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MBLittle (Post 1500745)
I'm confused. Maybe in reading wrong or reading into it.

But this post makes me think that if a cruising vessel spent 60 days in Greece and then 60 days in Italy before heading off for 60 days in Spain, that the Italians simply won't care that you spent an extra 30 days in their country, but Spaniards will turn you away because you've maxed out the 90 day max.

Is that basically what you said? Again, I could be confused.

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The on the ground experience, is that maritime immigration will not generally look through your entry and exit stamps trying to work out where the 90 days started. BUT they could.

Often in several cases, immigration just restamped the schenegen visa back into the passport , starting the 90 days again without looking for the previous entries.

Airports tend to be more anal.

Since you aren't required to get exit stamps per say and often they are difficult to get ( even the entry stamps are difficult to get ) , then many maritime immigration are a bit easier on cruisers, as they know the issues.

Unfortunately that doesn't prevent you from running foul of an officious type. But to date to my personal knowledge, "innocent" overstays by yachts have resulted in verbal warnings ( on exit), I know of nobody that got the dreaded " Entry refused" stamp or a big fine. There have been some instances of that in Greece amongst backpackers and also Austria and Germany.

What I meant was that don't use up over 90 days in any one country , i.e. say 60 , 60 , 60 etc. as I said often they just look at their own countries admission dates and not Schenegen as a whole .

Unfortunately, increasingly its tightening up.

dave

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 10:38

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MBLittle (Post 1500751)
Another thing that I'm getting from EU citizens is that if it was easier for them to stay in the US longer, they'd be OK with exempting US vessels from Scengen. Is that fair to say?

Is it really that hard to obtain a visa for the states? Harder than it is to obtain a visa for each particular EU country someone wishes to visit(which won't cover all of the EU)? If given a visa from the federal government, are you not allowed to travel to ANY state, which is quite different than EU visas?

Seems to me that an EU visa for certain countries like OZ, Japan, US, Canada, etc that covers all EU partners would be an easy solution. One that doesn't put any more possibility of illegal foreign immigration more than a US visa would.

Sent from my LG-E980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

There was "interesting " political sniping thats resulted in various 90 days rulings, It was a long beef of the EU that the US exempted certain EU countries via the US visa wavier and didn't excempt others, The EU has for long argued that the EU should be treated as the same across the community.

When the Schengen agreement was signed some of those issues set the decision to go with 90 days.

Where the uS to automatically grant EU visa waivers 6 months in the US, I think there would be significant pressure on the EU to reciprocate. SO write your congressman.

EU wide long stay visas, are a much harder nut to crack, primarily because immigration oversight by computer is very developed in the US ( and very overbearing, I mean we're finger printed remember!) . The EU would find it very difficult under its laws to develop the same draconian system as the US has. Hence long stay visas are now in effect "regional " visas. A EU wide long stay visa would simply require too many overarching surveillance systems.

Note today long stay EU country visas are very difficult to get, most are work or study type bias and unsuitable for cruisers.

Remember today, even under SIS II ( Schengen Information System II) , the EU does not maintain community wide data on you length of stay. Hence for example, Spain cannot electronically determine your stay in Italy. This is because data protection acts in various countries forbid the export of that type of personal data. There is a new system called EURSUR that is attempting to do this for African immigrants along the Med border.

SO long term EU wide extended stay tourist visas will most likely never come. There is also the issue of demand.


And Yes its difficult to get a B1 in the US and even now if you enter on a B1, immigration will not stamp you in for more then 90 days anyway ( even though you can technically reenter) .

I suspect if they could the US would discontinue issuing B1s for visa wavier countries. I certainly have had a hard time reviewing it, ( I wanted it for yachts)

Unfortunately theres no easy answer for the small handful of US cruisers

( Note Auzzies and especially NZers have special bilateral agreement's that predate Schengen and hence can stay much longer)


Dave

MBLittle 24-03-2014 10:57

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Thread drift warning:

As each day passes for us, the encumbrance of US citizenship surpasses the benefits of.

Also, side note, when I lived in England for 4 years, it seemed to me that most immigration concern was from African and Arabic countries. With such powerful bonds, I find it hard that the US and EU can't come to some semblance of a civilized agreement.

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sailorboy1 24-03-2014 10:59

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1500444)
So what happens to a cruiser if they overstay in the Med?


Let me rephrase, what could they and/or likely do?

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 11:02

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

With such powerful bonds, I find it hard that the US and EU can't come to some semblance of a civilized agreement.
You would think that , but I draw you attention to the huge furore thats the US demands on advance passenger notification created in Europe. The current US obsession with internal fortress US has created enormous difficulties in reaching such agreements. The US continually treats EU countries like parts of the third world. This then tends to bring on rebound actions.

9/11 had some very unfortunate effects, restrictions on travel being one of the major ones.

I don't see it changing any day soon. ( unless we all give Ukrainians free passage !)

dave

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 11:04

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1500770)
Let me rephrase, what could they and/or likely do?

immigration have of course, considerable powers, and constitutional protections are usually not afforded to"illegal immigrants"

SO, in extremis, jail,deportation, fines and permanent bans from the EU.

BUT that has not been the case for "innocent overstays", especially amongst nice white anglo-saxon types cruising expensive yachts, etc etc etc ,

of course the US could simply apply to join the EU, ( your social spending nows is about the same :sprint:) I mean we have half the friggin place in here already and Vald is pushing the rest in as fast as they can!!!.:popcorn::popcorn:
dave

beneteau-500 24-03-2014 11:18

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
I have to admit i have been sitting and laughing at this thread on how many times do we have to discuss what length of stay you can stay in Schengen countries, there are so many cruisers out there (non eu) who leave turkey and go across to greece and and sail around the Islands and then head up to Italy and where ever with out ever checking into that country i have a friend who since 19th of april last year has now spent 267 days in schengen countries and has been in Italy now continuously for past 94 days with out a problem no slap on wrists no fines no black marks in passport etc

Its a no brainer if you don't like the rules then go else where, where they suit you

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 11:27

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
I agree, and thats what I said, oversight in the EU of yachts is very minimal, Its the biggest sailing boat area in the world . Hence the practical situation is not as draconian as the rules would suggest. You just have to accept the ambiguity. Some can handle that, others want everything written down in stone.

Sail on

dave

sailorboy1 24-03-2014 11:32

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1500775)

BUT that has not been the case for "innocent overstays", especially amongst nice white anglo-saxon types cruising expensive yachts, etc etc etc ,

I don't really believe cruisers are doing "innocent overstays", I bet they all do it on purpose. While we don't seem to hear of a lot of people getting into trouble, if this is potential revenue to countries I would bet they are going to start looking to collect it.

So I'm not sure I would be willing to just go and ignore it.

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 11:41

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1500799)
I don't really believe cruisers are doing "innocent overstays", I bet they all do it on purpose. While we don't seem to hear of a lot of people getting into trouble, if this is potential revenue to countries I would bet they are going to start looking to collect it.

So I'm not sure I would be willing to just go and ignore it.

What is meant by innocent overstays , is that there is no intent to become an illegal immigrant. if you turn up overstaying , with your possessions in a sack, then the attitude is a little different.

The EU has a much less draconian immigration process then the US and especially in the Med on a sailboat boat , in countries like france, italy and spain, where you typically pull into a marina ( that has no immigration facilities) or anchor, there is effectively no control of "yachts"

Theres no revenue from chasing nice men in their yachts in reality and its not a big feature of daily life so to speak.

Quote:

So I'm not sure I would be willing to just go and ignore it
Yes thats the key, some do and live with it, and some want certainty, we don't do certainty very well !.


dave

Katiusha 24-03-2014 12:05

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Gentlemen,

It might be worth it for you to peruse the links I attached in the original post. The links talk about setting up an automated system for checking length of stay *upon exit*. While it's true that up to now in general officials closed their eyes on yachties, the automated system won't make this sort of distinction. Granted that most likely it'll be installed at airports and commercial passenger ports first, but how many of us fly during the course of our travels.

It pays to be careful.

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 13:28

Schengen rules have changed
 
I wouldn't quite worry about SiS 2 , VIS or EURSUR just quite yet. !! ( or tomorrow either ! )

Given the lack of a requirement ( with one or two exceptions ) for exit clearance for yachts I can't see two and two being added up to four any day soon ( or 90 either ) lol

Dave

ilCigno 24-03-2014 13:46

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1500807)
Theres no revenue from chasing nice men in their yachts in reality and its not a big feature of daily life so to speak.

Exactly. Technically, whenever we leave the inland waters of The Netherlands, we leave the Schengen area. As soon as we pass the sluice and head for sea, we have to bring our passports and a crew list. Officially we have to report (by telephone or any other way) at the customs office every time when we get in again. So far the theory.

In practice, some sailors bring their passports, most don't (except when sailing to another country, then it's required) and only very few carry a crew list. I have never heard of anyone ever report in at the customs. Most wouldn't even know where to report. Given the hundreds of boats who head out for sea in the high season, I think our customs officers are *very* glad that we don't. However, there are regular reports of yacht being checked by the Coast Guard at full sea, mainly to stop drugs trafficking. Mind you, I am not telling you that a non-Schengen yacht should not report in, but as said above, the rules are not enforced very strict.

There is an old Dutch saying for this situation: "The soup isn't always eaten as hot as it is served"

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 14:03

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
I think what many from outside the EU and especially those in the US, looking into the EU , perhaps see rules and ponder. What I think most don't realise, especially those that haven't visited the med under sail or in fact anywhere in Europe, is the sheer amount of boats and boat movements, especially in the summer. This is the planets biggest concentration of such vessels.

Hence,in reality, maritime authorities really don't want to be bothered, sure on occasion stuff happens, but often its related to something else.

Thats not to say you can fall foul, certainly you don't "wave things in their face" so to speak.

BUt the reality is that on there ground , these rules are not strictly enforced nor do the authorities want to. I mean have we actually ever had a first time account of a Schengen violation issue for a yachtie


dave

sailorboy1 24-03-2014 14:26

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1500912)
BUt the reality is that on there ground , these rules are not strictly enforced nor do the authorities want to. I mean have we actually ever had a first time account of a Schengen violation issue for a yachtie


dave


I believe we did have a thread last year, and it wasn't pretty! Seems all that is needed is to run across a port official with a hair up their rear.

I'm just trying to be informed and don't want to play roulette with it.

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 15:07

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1500931)
I believe we did have a thread last year, and it wasn't pretty! Seems all that is needed is to run across a port official with a hair up their rear.

I'm just trying to be informed and don't want to play roulette with it.

Then I missed it or did it happen ?

In my experience of clamp downs, its usually something else that caused an issue and it rippled into these types of things.

I mean think about it, In Europe , especially in the western med, if you actually can get a berth, you go into yacht marina, you do not enter a commercial harbour. In a yachts marina, the pleasant girl on reception thats a photocopy of your passport ( for ID), Your registration ( so they can determine your length to bill you ) and your insurance details ( cause the marina needs it). Of all the things that might stop you is actually the insurance!.

AT no point have you yet met an immigration authority. So unless you go off searching for him or her, you'll never likely actually check in. There you stay until the budget blows up ( 2-3 days) and you're of with a smile.

Half the time your on anchor in a bay, none is looking for your passport.

Yes if you want to stay for long periods then it can become an issue. But to cruise round the Med, The reality is as was pointed out a few posts ago, the people actually doing it are just laughing at this debate.


dave

monte 24-03-2014 15:50

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
some real world experience...

arriving in Portugal, not so likely yo be checked at anchor as other countries, but all marinas have a marina desk, and adjacent to the desk a full time immigration desk. They WILL check your foreign passport and they WILL count the days inside the schengen zone. They will also probbaly give you a lecture about how you have X amount of days left and if you overstayed I don't doubt they would eject you on the next flight along with fines, vessel impounding etc.

Arriving in Spain, the marinas don't have immigration on site but they are required to notify immigration. They will ask you to stay on board till the immigration officer arrives to check your documents. Spain is also more likely to board you while at anchor or sailing as they have a more on water staff and a lot of customs vessels patrolling the areas. Spanish officials generally seem very friendly and are mainly interested in completing there paperwork quota, unlike the Portuguese who seem very eager to bust someone.

French are somewhere between the Spanish and Portuguese and have a similar size customs fleet to the Spanish. You are very likely to be boarded at anchor or en route and they will check your documents. They will count your days inside the zone and explain how many days you have remaining.

Italians, much less likely to board you but some ports have a large immigration staff on site. They will board any foreign vessels and ask you to come to the office with documents and paperwork to check. They tend to argue among themselves about how the forms should be filled in, waving their hands about in typical Italian style. This can be a bit unnerving as its always in Italian or very broken English when they nominate the one with the best English to explain something or ask a question. Usually in the end they get frustrated and throw their paperwork in the bin..

After 2 seasons sailing in the Med I think we were boarded and checked about 5 times by the French, 5 or six by the Spanish, none by the Italians or Portuguese as they tend to handle things on land. I am positive if my documents weren't in order I would have been deported, probably with a 5yr ban from reentering the EU.

The first season we managed with a 12 month french visa which was difficult to get, but made easier as Jen is French. The second season we went to Croatia after 3 months in France and Italy. This year is undecided but I will apply for a cart de sejour for France.

It really is a PITA but it is also worthwhile...

Applying from Australia for a 12 month visa is pretty difficult as well. You have to fly to Sydney after making an appointment, then a meeting in France, Doctors checkups, and 1000 euro later you might have a Visa.

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 16:56

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

After 2 seasons sailing in the Med I think we were boarded and checked about 5 times by the French, 5 or six by the Spanish, none by the Italians or Portuguese as they tend to handle things on land. I am positive if my documents weren't in order I would have been deported, probably with a 5yr ban from reentering the EU.
Jeppers, I haven't seen that many boardings at sea in the Med in 20 years sailing there. I anchored in bays for days with cruisers I know hadn't checked in, no-one bothered.

I cant remember the last time Ive seen a immigration desk at a marina in france, Ive never seen an Italian one, despite been all over the place, Spain often has no-one too. Ive not seen any Spainish on-water staff neither ( only close to major ports)

Yes in Portugal and in Greece, there are the remnants of rubber stamp officials everywhere. As also when you go into commercial ports, you do come in contact.

I find it hard to believe your experience is usual. did you piss someone off. talking to others I never seen a cruiser boarded as much as you.

Ive been boarded of Atlantic France a few times, but always cause it was off season and a yacht is suspicious and it was always drugs.

Portugal is a problem for paperwork in general, grrrrrr

Dave

monte 24-03-2014 17:57

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
1 Attachment(s)
Yeah Dave I think the major difference is the flag you are flying doesn't attract as much attention. We have an AIS transponer on board and I think that actually lessens suspicion from the authorities. At sea they can check our details without us even knowing and most people doing illegal activities wouldn't be transmitting vessel details and position. Ports closer to entry/exit routes tend to be more officious.

The Italian example I used was departing Otranto for Croatia is a large coast gaurd office that interrogated every new arrival, as well as Arriving in Italy from Croatia at Trani we had police, customs and coast guard all on board arguing among themselves about the legalities. Fortunately we had a lot of assistance from a local translator who knew more about the rules and regulations than the officials.

The last French boarding was sailing off the calanques they came alongside while we were en route, passed over a fishing net to take the vessel documents and after reviewing them told us they wanted to board when we arrived at our destination. They followed us for 45mins till we dropped anchor and came aboard for a quick inspection. They were nice enough and again explained the Schengen rules.

In most cases they have been friendly enough and we always have all our documents together in a folder with copies of all in case they request them, but I believe they are all well versed in the Shengen rules and wouldn't be so nice if they found you to be outside those rules.

We sailed the last 2 seasons from March to November, so averaging 2-3 boarding's per year isn't really much. We usually have a chat and ask about nearby anchorages etc. We probably anchor 80% of the time.

Portugal and Gibraltar were the only countries interested in our French dogs Pet Passport and vaccination certificates...

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 18:09

Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by monte (Post 1501142)
Yeah Dave I think the major difference is the flag you are flying doesn't attract as much attention. We have an AIS transponer on board and I think that actually lessens suspicion from the authorities. At sea they can check our details without us even knowing and most people doing illegal activities wouldn't be transmitting vessel details and position. Ports closer to entry/exit routes tend to be more officious.



The Italian example I used was departing Otranto for Croatia is a large coast gaurd office that interrogated every new arrival, as well as Arriving in Italy from Croatia at Trani we had police, customs and coast guard all on board arguing among themselves about the legalities. Fortunately we had a lot of assistance from a local translator who knew more about the rules and regulations than the officials.



The last French boarding was sailing off the calanques they came alongside while we were en route, passed over a fishing net to take the vessel documents and after reviewing them told us they wanted to board when we arrived at our destination. They followed us for 45mins till we dropped anchor and came aboard for a quick inspection. They were nice enough and again explained the Schengen rules.



In most cases they have been friendly enough and we always have all our documents together in a folder with copies of all in case they request them, but I believe they are all well versed in the Shengen rules and wouldn't be so nice if they found you to be outside those rules.



We sailed the last 2 seasons from March to November, so averaging 2-3 boarding's per year isn't really much. We usually have a chat and ask about nearby anchorages etc. We probably anchor 80% of the time.



Portugal and Gibraltar were the only countries interested in our French dogs Pet Passport and vaccination certificates...


Hmm maybe things have changed a lot in the last two years since I was there. ( two summers worth. Whereas recently it was quick deliveries) Of course flying various EU flags help, but I've never seen French board yachts like you mentioned, drugs yes.

There has been a massive flap on on France over threats that the Italians were going to let the illegal immigrants go into France. All the borders began reappearing

Still can't figure your experiences. I know for a fact several non EU boats that are " pushing " Schengen. Maybe it has tightened up.

But there even was a poster to this thread that , said they were all laughing at us, worrying.

Hmmm very interesting

Ps were you boarded in framce, by the Gendarme Maritime or the local police , both are present on the water as are the Douane ( customs ) ,The Italians don't like the Douane IMHO.

Dave


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monte 24-03-2014 19:18

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
In France by the Douane. Once in Les Sables as we were returning to port, and another in the Calanques as described. It surprised me they didn't want to board immediately as they gave us ample time and opportunity to flush any contraband we might have had overboard, but I think they were more interested in discussing Schengen. They had a quick search on board, but by no means complete. We did see an Italian customs boarding yachts anchored in Ponza but we weren't on board at the time so they skipped us.

ilCigno 25-03-2014 02:31

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
In Europe (at least in The Netherlands) the coast guard often has multiple tasks:
- police
- environmental monitoring
- monitoring of fishing
- monitoring ships traffic
- monitoring of ships equipment
- monitoring of oil and gas rigs
- border control and customs

Quite handy, only one check or boarding (if any) for a visiting yacht.

BTW, boardings and the subsequent search is performed on a risc assessment. If your boat shows no signs of drugs trafficking (e.g. vague story on itinerary, only men on board with no vacation luggage, food stored in upper lockers, sailed track does not match with story, general impression does not 'fit') the search will be quite superficial.

goboatingnow 25-03-2014 02:38

Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by monte (Post 1501193)
In France by the Douane. Once in Les Sables as we were returning to port, and another in the Calanques as described. It surprised me they didn't want to board immediately as they gave us ample time and opportunity to flush any contraband we might have had overboard, but I think they were more interested in discussing Schengen. They had a quick search on board, but by no means complete. We did see an Italian customs boarding yachts anchored in Ponza but we weren't on board at the time so they skipped us.


Ah the Douane , funnily I don't beleive they have any immigration role, my understanding is that is the baliwick of the gendarme maritime, but talking to people they often board on one pretext when looking for something else.

I've had them aboard on drugs interdiction from time to time

Maybe there has been a clampdown in the last two years. Somebody's been naughty perhaps and that's spurred a bit of on water inspection

Dave

jckb 25-03-2014 05:53

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1500444)
So what happens to a cruiser if they overstay in the Med?

This subject is covered in some detail in Immigration and Customs rules for EU, Schengen and other countries | JimB Sail . This stuff is reviewed monthly. If you see errors or disagree, add a comment to the page. Dave, "Goboatingow", helped in its earlier incarnations!

I guess you're referring to non-EU crew, rather than a non-EU boat.

The only times you're likely to be caught out are if there's some boating or police incident, or if you try to exit the country by "approved means of transport" - ie, airlines or ferries.

Also, there's quite a big difference depending whether or not you have a valid entry stamp (an overstay) or no entry stamp (illegal immigration!).

Also, within Schengen and EU, the authorities pay far more attention to non-EU registered boats than they do to EU registered boats. Also, they track boats at sea in border areas (S Spain, Sicily, Dodecanese) much more closely than in other areas.

As already noted, Italy is lax in its controls. Also, Greece does not always book non-EU boat crews into the country; they assume you are spending all nights aboard. Several US crews have been fined when attempting to depart by air - without entry stamps to Schengen they were assumed illegal immigrants! Moral - make sure you have an entry stamp before trying to fly out of Schengen!

As Katy warned, the Schengen-wide database reporting is becoming ever more efficient, though still very leaky at the moment.

JimB

Katiusha 25-03-2014 06:36

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

French are somewhere between the Spanish and Portuguese and have a similar size customs fleet to the Spanish. You are very likely to be boarded at anchor or en route and they will check your documents. They will count your days inside the zone and explain how many days you have remaining.
Quote:

Yeah Dave I think the major difference is the flag you are flying doesn't attract as much attention.
Our experiences mirror Rob's. We're flying non-EU flag, we don't charter, but we were boarded by French four times in two months we were sailing there last year. They did politely remind us how many months were left of our VAT-free status and how many days until the end of our Schengen. We were anchoring in Cote d'Azur in the beginning of high season.

It would seem as if they're slowly ramping up on enforcement. But maybe we just attract this kind of attention (a couple with a baby?).

Nikki S 25-03-2014 17:33

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
re Monte's comment: "
YEs I would fly directly to France, no paperwork needed and you will automatically have 3 months before you need to depart or arrive in Italy "

That would be ideal for us, but is that really the case? That would give us 90 days shengen + 364 days in Italy (90 of which can be spent in other shengen countries). Im concerned if we go to Italy via France (and maybe spain) that it may cause issues when we finally arrive in italy..... or try to leave italy....

Does anyone have experience with this situation?

beneteau-500 25-03-2014 22:39

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
in 21 yrs of living full time in the eu on an aussie passport i have never had a prob and good see some one from my part of the world ( rosebud )

svBeBe 26-03-2014 00:40

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1500706)
....snipped.....


And please tell me exactly how it's affecting those 6 people.

Dave

Under the Schengen rules in effect prior to the rulings changed effective 18 October 2013 that Katiusha originally posted in this thread, it was perfectly legal to enter a Schengen country for a day to start a 'first entry' of a 180-day period, of which one was allowed to be within Schengen countries for a total of 90 days, each subsequent entry being labeled 're-entry.' At the end of that 180-day period, one was required to be outside Schengen countries at midnight of that day. The following day one could again check into a Schengen country to begin a second 180-day period, during which one would be allowed to be within Schengen countries for a total of 90 days. This allowed a back-to-back period of 89 days of the first 180-day period followed by 90 days of the second 180-day period. That was established with the Bot case in either 2005 or 2006.

The 6 people in this marina planned to follow what was the law up until 18 October 2013, as they had no knowledge of the rules being changed at that time (Thanks to Katiusha for informing us!). All 6 planned the back-to-back periods (as previously allowed) and cleared into a Schengen country for one day to start their first 180-day period. Marinas for next winter have already been paid; flights back to home countries have already been purchased for the required minimum 90 days out (which would have been during that second 180-day period). So, what do these people do now? Forfit the marina fees? Forfit the airline ticket costs? Go to unsafe Tunisia? I'm sure you have a simple answer. And, after all, it is their own fault for not finding out about the changes in Schengen rules even though they all researched this last summer.

Judy

chuckr 26-03-2014 02:13

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
[QUOTE=svBeBe;1502068
Go to unsafe Tunisia? Judy[/QUOTE]


Judy -- how do you know Tunisia is unsafe???? Be there??? or what?? I happen to winter over here and it sure is a heck of a lot safer than almost anyplace we have been in over 6years of cruising --- we have traveled inland over 4,000km and the people have been friendly and helpful -- it is simply a wonderful country and very safe
it is obvious from your posting that you have no idea what you are talking about
and YOU OWE THE PEOPLE OF TUNISIA AN APOLOGY --

and i am not a muslim nor tunisian -- i am a evangelical christian and an american
and we plan to winter over here again next year

next time before you post i suggest you check your facts

Nikki S 26-03-2014 03:12

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
...obtaining longer stay visa in individual EU country is a joke. We certainly could not do it for Italy.

Judy[/QUOTE]

Hi Judy,
was there any reason given for why you could not get Italian National (long stay) Visa? (we are just about to apply for one)

Nikki S 26-03-2014 03:19

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beneteau-500 (Post 1502051)
in 21 yrs of living full time in the eu on an aussie passport i have never had a prob and good see some one from my part of the world ( rosebud )

Thanks Beneteau-500.
Do you get long stay Visa's, or what/How have you managed 21 yrs full-time? Have you left in that time? (BTW we're even closer to Rosebud now, in Dromana, temporarily, until moving to our Nauticat in the Med)

goboatingnow 26-03-2014 04:59

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

I'm sure you have a simple answer. And, after all, it is their own fault for not finding out about the changes in Schengen rules even though they all researched this last summer.
Im impressed someone was taking note of the Bot judgement. Very few people knew about the "loophole"

dave

goboatingnow 26-03-2014 05:03

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Katiusha (Post 1501424)
Our experiences mirror Rob's. We're flying non-EU flag, we don't charter, but we were boarded by French four times in two months we were sailing there last year. They did politely remind us how many months were left of our VAT-free status and how many days until the end of our Schengen. We were anchoring in Cote d'Azur in the beginning of high season.

It would seem as if they're slowly ramping up on enforcement. But maybe we just attract this kind of attention (a couple with a baby?).

My in-depth experiences comes from 2 years ago and several summers before that , ( since then its been single voyage deliveries) It was spent in all the anchorages along the Cote D'Azure and italy and parts of spain. It was extremely rare to see on water French activity in boarding yachts, Occasionally the Maritime police would arrive , but they were mainly checking commercial vendors licenses. ( ski boats, ice cream ladies etc) . Douane now and again, and they were mainly focused on channel Island boats !


It would seemed to have changed in the meantime, wonder what caused the crack down


dave

goboatingnow 26-03-2014 05:07

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Yeah Dave I think the major difference is the flag you are flying doesn't attract as much attention.
I find it hard to believe the "authorities" pay too much attention to the colour of the rag out the back ! I mean from time to time I fly , various warranted club ensigns etc, which must confuse the heck out of them. Doesn't seem to get me boarded.


dave

LJH 26-03-2014 05:33

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by svBeBe (Post 1502068)
Under the Schengen rules in effect prior to the rulings changed effective 18 October 2013 that Katiusha originally posted in this thread, it was perfectly legal to enter a Schengen country for a day to start a 'first entry' of a 180-day period, of which one was allowed to be within Schengen countries for a total of 90 days, each subsequent entry being labeled 're-entry.' At the end of that 180-day period, one was required to be outside Schengen countries at midnight of that day. The following day one could again check into a Schengen country to begin a second 180-day period, during which one would be allowed to be within Schengen countries for a total of 90 days. This allowed a back-to-back period of 89 days of the first 180-day period followed by 90 days of the second 180-day period. That was established with the Bot case in either 2005 or 2006.

The 6 people in this marina planned to follow what was the law up until 18 October 2013, as they had no knowledge of the rules being changed at that time (Thanks to Katiusha for informing us!). All 6 planned the back-to-back periods (as previously allowed) and cleared into a Schengen country for one day to start their first 180-day period. Marinas for next winter have already been paid; flights back to home countries have already been purchased for the required minimum 90 days out (which would have been during that second 180-day period). So, what do these people do now? Forfit the marina fees? Forfit the airline ticket costs? Go to unsafe Tunisia? I'm sure you have a simple answer. And, after all, it is their own fault for not finding out about the changes in Schengen rules even though they all researched this last summer.

Judy

Like the 6 people you mention, this has affected me as well and I have had to re-plan my 2014 cruising that was based on an early first entry for back to back periods at the 6 month point.

While we all put a lot of effort into planning, we must remember that we must be adaptable as there are many events that can influence them (political, health, weather etc). Yes it can be frustrating.

The marina and the airlines may allow reservation changes, for a fee. Perhaps planning a road or rail trip outside the Shengen area could be an option (Croatia, Romania and Bulgaria before they join Shengen, Serbia etc.).

Personally, I never purchase airline tickets more than 30 days in advance and I frequently purchase one way tickets for flexibility even though it may cost a few dollars more.

LJH 26-03-2014 05:44

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by monte (Post 1501028)
some real world experience...

arriving in Portugal, not so likely yo be checked at anchor as other countries, but all marinas have a marina desk, and adjacent to the desk a full time immigration desk. They WILL check your foreign passport and they WILL count the days inside the schengen zone. They will also probbaly give you a lecture about how you have X amount of days left and if you overstayed I don't doubt they would eject you on the next flight along with fines, vessel impounding etc.

Arriving in Spain, the marinas don't have immigration on site but they are required to notify immigration. They will ask you to stay on board till the immigration officer arrives to check your documents. Spain is also more likely to board you while at anchor or sailing as they have a more on water staff and a lot of customs vessels patrolling the areas. Spanish officials generally seem very friendly and are mainly interested in completing there paperwork quota, unlike the Portuguese who seem very eager to bust someone.

French are somewhere between the Spanish and Portuguese and have a similar size customs fleet to the Spanish. You are very likely to be boarded at anchor or en route and they will check your documents. They will count your days inside the zone and explain how many days you have remaining.

Italians, much less likely to board you but some ports have a large immigration staff on site. They will board any foreign vessels and ask you to come to the office with documents and paperwork to check. They tend to argue among themselves about how the forms should be filled in, waving their hands about in typical Italian style. This can be a bit unnerving as its always in Italian or very broken English when they nominate the one with the best English to explain something or ask a question. Usually in the end they get frustrated and throw their paperwork in the bin..

After 2 seasons sailing in the Med I think we were boarded and checked about 5 times by the French, 5 or six by the Spanish, none by the Italians or Portuguese as they tend to handle things on land. I am positive if my documents weren't in order I would have been deported, probably with a 5yr ban from reentering the EU.

The first season we managed with a 12 month french visa which was difficult to get, but made easier as Jen is French. The second season we went to Croatia after 3 months in France and Italy. This year is undecided but I will apply for a cart de sejour for France.

It really is a PITA but it is also worthwhile...

Applying from Australia for a 12 month visa is pretty difficult as well. You have to fly to Sydney after making an appointment, then a meeting in France, Doctors checkups, and 1000 euro later you might have a Visa.

My experience

Portugal - they count the days over six months looking for multiple entry and exit stamps. Cruisers that overstayed in Horta a couple of years ago were fined, albeit only 1 Euro per day each.

Spain (Canaries) - marinas report your entry and you are expected to visit immigration for a stamp, even if it means renting a car to travel to a port of entry. Officials came along side to check on us, but did not board.

MBLittle 26-03-2014 09:04

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
So, let's pretend I still don't get it.

You can be in schengren for 90 days out for 90 days in for 90 days out for 90 days. Meaning 6 months a year, 3 months at a time?

Sent from my LG-E980 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

chala 26-03-2014 09:26

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by hellosailor (Post 1500103)
Actually cruisers have nothing to do with the problem. I know folks who have taken motorcycle trips in Europe that lasted more than 90 days. Backpackers. Hikers. All kinds of folks who were doing a low-budget "grand tour" of the same kind taken since at least the 1800's.
90 days may help keep out the gypsies, tramps, and thieves...oh wait, that's so PI now these days, isn't it? Still...cutting off all tourism at 90 days surely isn't going to stop illegal immigration. Or be the best way to address it. (Doesn't work in the US, either.)

You are right and think what it does to the income of peoples that depend on the high-budget “grand tour”

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1500113)
As a person who regularly flies from a EU non Schengen area to an EU Schengen area, I just wish the UK and Ireland would cop themselves on and join, and I could kiss passport control goodbye.

And all this peoples waiting in France to move into Great Britain would be able to enter freely?

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1501149)
There has been a massive flap on on France over threats that the Italians were going to let the illegal immigrants go into France. All the borders began reappearing

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1500773)
The US continually treats EU countries like parts of the third world.

And so are some other EU countries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoppy (Post 1500727)
Schengen is not about the bloody foreigners, its about making life easier for us EU citizens.

Obviously the Swiss did not see it that way.


Quote:

Originally Posted by monte (Post 1501028)
Applying from Australia for a 12 month visa is pretty difficult as well. You have to fly to Sydney after making an appointment, then a meeting in France, Doctors checkups, and 1000 euro later you might have a Visa.

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1500758)
Note today long stay EU country visas are very difficult to get, most are work or study type bias and unsuitable for cruisers.

( Note Auzzies and especially NZers have special bilateral agreement's that predate Schengen and hence can stay much longer)

So what are these special bilateral agreement's that predate Schengen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1500799)
if this is potential revenue to countries I would bet they are going to start looking to collect it.

So I'm not sure I would be willing to just go and ignore it.

Wise

File:Supranational European Bodies-en.svg - Wikimedia Commons

K_V_B 26-03-2014 09:46

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chala (Post 1502350)



Obviously the Swiss did not see it that way.




The Swiss did not vote against Schengen. The free movement of people within the EU, EEA and Switzerland has nothing to do with Schengen. The UK for example is not part of Schengen, yet EU citizens (and at the moment the Swiss still) can freely move there...

Schengen was not primarily about making things easier for EU citizens. Crossing borders was already trivially easy, even before Schengen. I rarely had to show my passport when entering Switzerland before that country joined Schengen. Schengen is not about migration.

Schengen is firstly a common visa policy. It is intended to make life easier for visitors to Europe. An Indian or Chinese coming to Europe now no longer has to apply for visa to France, Germany etc...

That is why Switzerland joined as well. Tourism from China and India is increasing, and Switzerland didn't like the idea of tourists avoiding it only because doing so doubled he red tape involved.
And it solved the embarrassing problem of people being taking of the Paris - Venice night train in the middle of the night because they didn't have a Swiss visa...


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