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-   -   Schengen rules have changed (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/schengen-rules-have-changed-122641.html)

Katiusha 17-03-2014 02:18

Schengen rules have changed
 
As of 18th October 2013, the method of calculating the days one can stay in the Schengen area, is changed: DGs - Home Affairs - What we do - ...Schengen, Borders & Visas - Border crossing


The main change is that


Quote:

contrary to the definition which was in force until 18 October 2013, the new concept is more precise by setting the duration in days, instead of months. Moreover, the term "from the date of first entry" which gave rise to many uncertainties and questions (especially after a judgment of the Court of Justice of the EU from 2006 (Case 241/05 "Bot)) has been dropped from the provision.

The notion of"any" implies the application of a "moving" 180-day reference period, looking backwards at each day of the stay (be it at the entry or at the day of an actual check) into the last 180-day period, in order to verify if the 90 days/180 days requirement continues to be fulfilled.
Also note that EC proposed a new Registered Traveller Program that would automatically enfource the new rules upon entering and leaving Schengen area. It is described at the end of Harmonising Rules and Procedures section of the webpage.


To make calculations easier, a “Short stay calculator” is now available from that same page. The User Guide for the calculator explains how the length of stay is calculated: https://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs..._manual_en.pdf

Note that the old definition ("3 months during a 6 months period following the date of first entry") continues to apply to citizens of Antigua and Barbuda, The Bahamas, Barbados, Brazil, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Mauritius, and Seychelles.

I have emailed noonsite and JimBSail to update.

monte 17-03-2014 02:24

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
thanks guys..hope all is well aboard Bliss :)

sailorboy1 17-03-2014 04:01

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Guess I don't get it, what practical difference is the change for a cruiser?

Katiusha 17-03-2014 04:52

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Instead of the 90 days in a 6 month period that started on the first entry, it is now a rolling period of 180 days.

This means that by the old rules you could set it up so you could spend 89 days, leave for 1 day, and come back for another 90, effectively spending 6 months in Schengen. Now this scenario doesn't work and you're limited to only 90 days.

monte 17-03-2014 04:52

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
the past rules allowed you to fly into europe for a day, fly out, fly back 3 months later, stay 6 months. The new rules have sewn up the loophole...Now its 90 days in, 90 days out..

monte 17-03-2014 04:58

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
jinx..

Nikki S 19-03-2014 21:30

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
So has anyone successfully got a long stay visa without having family or employment ? We are about to apply to Italy . Have to pick our Boat up from France in May, however (and we are currently in Australia) so I'm wondering whether we can go to France first and then on to Italy , or whether we have to fly into Italy first, then go to France to get boat. Any tips, people?

monte 19-03-2014 22:07

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
I had a long stay french one 2 years ago (1 year visa) My girlfriend is French so it made it easier, otherwise its a PITA. I think you would have to fly to Italy because they usually want you to have a meeting or doctors test, but perhaps not. It depends, I guess you will have a visa stuck in the passport before you leave and that may be enough for the French, Portuguese and Spanish authorities to believe you haven;t overstayed your schengen visa. Where are you collecting your boat?

chuckr 20-03-2014 03:23

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nikki S (Post 1497091)
So has anyone successfully got a long stay visa without having family or employment ? We are about to apply to Italy . Have to pick our Boat up from France in May, however (and we are currently in Australia) so I'm wondering whether we can go to France first and then on to Italy , or whether we have to fly into Italy first, then go to France to get boat. Any tips, people?


not france but spain -- we actually tried to get a visa in spain from the national police in madrid -- we are retired and have our own income so we were not looking for a handout --
the police were sympathic and told us they could not do anything in madrid but if we were to take a train to portugal and go to the spanish embassy there we could apply for a visa for an extended stay and it would probably be granted -- we just could not do it in country and it had to be done out of country
we did not do it as we had left lisbon a few weeks prior and with time getting short for us to put the boat in we decided to head to tunisia instead

Nikki S 20-03-2014 18:06

Thanks for the reply. We collect boat from Marseilles but have chosen Italy for long-stay visa application, for various reasons. Just wondering if we have to fly into Italy from Australia, or if we can enter Italy after France, and get a normal 90 day Schengen tourist visa to cover us in France.....

Stu Jackson 20-03-2014 18:16

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
I am pretty sure many have posted before about this nonsense, but I'm not sure if anyone has asked the basic question of why do they do this?

Doesn't it make it harder for boaters? And doesn't it discourage "tourism?"

Sorry about the basic dumball question, but, basically what the heck is the prupose of this seeming nonsense?

Isn't it like holding up a BIG flag saying: "WE DON'T WANT YOU?"

Nikki S 20-03-2014 18:32

Possibly caused by fear of illegal immigrants....? It's the same in a lot of countries: "90 days no problem, but if you want to stay longer we are going to make it hard for you." It's a shame because the longer we stay the more money we will spend there, instead of waiting elsewhere so we can come back at the right time to sail us and our money across the Atlantic.....

monte 20-03-2014 18:54

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
YEs I would fly directly to France, no paperwork needed and you will automatically have 3 months before you need to depart or arrive in Italy

goboatingnow 20-03-2014 19:07

Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson (Post 1497839)
I am pretty sure many have posted before about this nonsense, but I'm not sure if anyone has asked the basic question of why do they do this?

Doesn't it make it harder for boaters? And doesn't it discourage "tourism?"

Sorry about the basic dumball question, but, basically what the heck is the prupose of this seeming nonsense?

Isn't it like holding up a BIG flag saying: "WE DON'T WANT YOU?"


90 days is more then enough for the vast vast majority of ordinary tourists. What's your problem. Do you expect the whole EU immigration process to be changed to facilitate a few dozen long term non EU cruisers , please

Dave


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monte 20-03-2014 19:15

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
seems like most countries are the same. USA requires a visa for longer than 90 days, Australia as well..

hellosailor 20-03-2014 20:14

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
"Isn't it like holding up a BIG flag saying: "WE DON'T WANT YOU?" "
I don't know, Stu. Having grown up and lived most of my life on an island overwhelmed by damned transients who never go HOME...I give the EU great credit for having the cohones to say "You had a fine vacation, NOW GO HOME."

A cynic might think the 90 day period was put through by and for the airline industry, who obviously make twice as much money if you have to come twice as often to cover the same amount of ground.

Or, it could be a plot by the Duchy of Grand Fenwick. You know, incite the Americans into INVADING and then sue for peace. Of course, that might backfire on them if the Chinese decide to invade first. Or, the Russians. "Today, Crimea. Tomorrow, Monte Carlo!"

goboatingnow 21-03-2014 15:28

Schengen rules have changed
 
Hey. Whatever about Crimea , the Russians have already overrun Monte Carlo

Dave

svBeBe 22-03-2014 06:25

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by monte (Post 1497889)
seems like most countries are the same. USA requires a visa for longer than 90 days, Australia as well..

Yes, but the USA has a mechanism (B-2 Visa) that can be obtained for longer stay. And Australia makes it extremely easy for cruisers. Easy as pie to obtain a 12-month multi-entry visa for Australia. Cost around $150, if memory serves. There is no provision whatsoever for longer stay Schengen visa. And obtaining longer stay visa in individual EU country is a joke. We certainly could not do it for Italy. Will be checking with the Spanish consulate for a possible 90-day visa the next time we visit our home country, because American friends who crossed the Atlantic last December were hassled in the Canaries because they were over the 90-days allowed per Schengen. Not fined or passports stamped illegal alien but received verbal reprimand.

Judy

jckb 22-03-2014 12:19

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson (Post 1497839)
I am pretty sure many have posted before about this nonsense, but I'm not sure if anyone has asked the basic question of why do they do this?

Doesn't it make it harder for boaters? And doesn't it discourage "tourism?"

Sorry about the basic dumball question, but, basically what the heck is the prupose of this seeming nonsense?

Isn't it like holding up a BIG flag saying: "WE DON'T WANT YOU?"

errm. It's because the USA applies even worse rules to Europeans. Tit for tat.

hellosailor 22-03-2014 13:41

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
"errm. It's because the USA applies even worse rules to Europeans. Tit for tat. "

What kind of evil Europeans can't get a longer than 90-day visa to travel in the US? Please, do let me know so I can take that up with my CongressCritter.

And it isn't quite tit for tat, since the EU consisted of many nations last time I looked, a proper tit-for-tat would be saying that Europeans couldn't stay in the entire North American Free Trade Zone for more than 90 days. Canada, Mexico, and the US, all combined and well beyond the borders of one nation.

MBLittle 22-03-2014 14:39

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Imagine if the Association of Caribbean States decided to limit foreigners to 90 days, but exempted Americans and Canadians. Boy oh boy the belly aching from across the pond would be audible.

Bottom line, for any non-EU cruiser is Schengen is an absolute travesty and a shame. 90 days and get out or hang out in some fantastic vacation ports like Libya, Egypt or Israel...
:rollseyes:

And I'm curious as to what Europeans are having problems. After my years living in Europe, I've yet to have one of my many friends from the EU have any trouble whatsoever with staying in the states for long periods of time.

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jckb 23-03-2014 04:56

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hellosailor (Post 1499264)
"errm. It's because the USA applies even worse rules to Europeans. Tit for tat. "

What kind of evil Europeans can't get a longer than 90-day visa to travel in the US? Please, do let me know so I can take that up with

A European who arrives in a leisure boat without a current visa stamp in his passport. ESTA rules don't apply unless you arrive in US by "approved means of transport"

JimB

chala 23-03-2014 10:15

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Schengen is an idiocy that will help the demise of the EU.
https://www.dw.de/swiss-vote-to-stem-...ems/a-17420750

goboatingnow 23-03-2014 15:19

Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chala (Post 1499883)
Schengen is an idiocy that will help the demise of the EU.

https://www.dw.de/swiss-vote-to-stem-...ems/a-17420750


the EU is in effect a series of federated or confederated states, not unlike in a lot of cases the US. There are differences of course.

A key part of that fact is there are no internal borders between those states ( and some other affiliated states ).

Hence the concept of immigrating into a particular EU country is in effect gone.

As a result the border is now around the outside of such states. You are in effect immigrating into one country.

the fact that a handful of cruisers are affected is IRRELEVANT. Who the hell care that 50 people a year are discommoded when 370 million are benefiting. Please get a grip.

Comparisons with nafta are not applicable , each of these states retains a border with immigration controls.


When I go next to the NE US , whine , how come I can't get 90 days in Vermont, Connecticut, New Hampshire , etc etc whine whine

Ps. Yes there should be a long stay visa like the B1 etc. but currently there are significant national issues in having a standardised long stay visa.

Dave


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hellosailor 23-03-2014 15:30

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Jim-
"A European who arrives in a leisure boat without a current visa stamp in his passport."
I'm not clear on what you are saying. That folks who did not bother to get alonger visa, cannot simply get one on or after arrival? Or that visas for more than 90 days are not allowed to folks arriving by private yacht?

Dave-
"the fact that a handful of cruisers are affected is IRRELEVANT. Who the hell care that 50 people a year are discommoded when 370 million are benefiting. "
Actually cruisers have nothing to do with the problem. I know folks who have taken motorcycle trips in Europe that lasted more than 90 days. Backpackers. Hikers. All kinds of folks who were doing a low-budget "grand tour" of the same kind taken since at least the 1800's.
90 days may help keep out the gypsies, tramps, and thieves...oh wait, that's so PI now these days, isn't it? Still...cutting off all tourism at 90 days surely isn't going to stop illegal immigration. Or be the best way to address it. (Doesn't work in the US, either.)

goboatingnow 23-03-2014 15:43

Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hellosailor (Post 1500103)
Jim-
"A European who arrives in a leisure boat without a current visa stamp in his passport."
I'm not clear on what you are saying. That folks who did not bother to get alonger visa, cannot simply get one on or after arrival? Or that visas for more than 90 days are not allowed to folks arriving by private yacht?

Dave-
"the fact that a handful of cruisers are affected is IRRELEVANT. Who the hell care that 50 people a year are discommoded when 370 million are benefiting. "
Actually cruisers have nothing to do with the problem. I know folks who have taken motorcycle trips in Europe that lasted more than 90 days. Backpackers. Hikers. All kinds of folks who were doing a low-budget "grand tour" of the same kind taken since at least the 1800's.
90 days may help keep out the gypsies, tramps, and thieves...oh wait, that's so PI now these days, isn't it? Still...cutting off all tourism at 90 days surely isn't going to stop illegal immigration. Or be the best way to address it. (Doesn't work in the US, either.)


The 90 days EU visa waiver period was picked in reciprocation for the US 90 days visa waiver scheme.

I for example had great great difficultly regaining my B1 for the US , because as a visa waiver country I was repeatedly refused. Immigration don't like visa waiver immigrants using a B1

Yes , it would be nice to have a long stay Schengen visa, but given the data protection issues, the lack of demand for long stay tourist visas and the time it took to agree the first acquis. I won't hold my breath.

The 90 days is nothing to do with illegal immigration. It's a consequence of the removal of internal borders. As a person who regularly flies from a EU non Schengen area to an EU Schengen area, I just wish the UK and Ireland would cop themselves on and join, and I could kiss passport control goodbye. ;)

There is no evidence of a significant change in US cruisers in the Med ( for example ) in the last ten years of Schengen. There were few in the 90s there are few today. It's not Schengen that is the cause I would venture.

Dave


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barnakiel 23-03-2014 16:34

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson (Post 1497839)

(...) this nonsense, (....)

And doesn't it discourage "tourism?"

(...)

Not much more nonsensical than say US or AUS visa requirements.

And you are right about tourism. I say if a non EU citizen can afford living in the EU and can produce a fat credit card, they should be welcomed with open arms.

I believe re-writing Schengen has nothing to do with sailors, tourists, Westerners nor with evidently growing EU red tape. It looks more like the Union is trying to protect its Easter/Southern board.

b.

goboatingnow 23-03-2014 16:38

Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel (Post 1500149)
Not much more nonsensical than say US or AUS visa requirements.

And you are right about tourism. I say if a non EU citizen can afford living in the EU and can produce a fat credit card, they should be welcomed with open arms.

I believe re-writing Schengen has nothing to do with sailors, tourists, Westerners nor with evidently growing EU red tape. It looks more like the Union is trying to protect its Easter/Southern board.

b.


The Schengen rules were (are being ) rewritten to remove the effect of the Bot ruling from the EU ECJ. France lost that case , hey presto law gets changed ! In effect it does not really change anything or effect anyone.

Dave


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Helix 23-03-2014 16:41

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
[QUOTE=hellosailor;1497929

Or, the Russians. "Today, Crimea. Tomorrow, Monte Carlo!

[/QUOTE]

... And much more. Every single central and South American country, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Philippines, Mexico, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Serbia, Diego Garcia, Okinawa...

...Ah, those nasty Russians:devil:

goboatingnow 23-03-2014 16:42

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel (Post 1500149)
Not much more nonsensical than say US or AUS visa requirements.

And you are right about tourism. I say if a non EU citizen can afford living in the EU and can produce a fat credit card, they should be welcomed with open arms.

I believe re-writing Schengen has nothing to do with sailors, tourists, Westerners nor with evidently growing EU red tape. It looks more like the Union is trying to protect its Easter/Southern board.

b.


EUROSUR is actually the border screening and immigration cooperation aimed at southern Eau countries and the problems of African illegal immigrants

Dave


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svBeBe 24-03-2014 04:16

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1500152)
The Schengen rules were (are being ) rewritten to remove the effect of the Bot ruling from the EU ECJ. France lost that case , hey presto law gets changed ! In effect it does not really change anything or effect anyone.

Dave


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It affects (not effects) 6 people sitting on boats berthed in this tiny 24 boat marina at this moment. Guess we are not 'anyone.'

And, as to your other comment about whine, whine, whine, when I next go to the USA can I stay 90 days in each state, whine, whine, whine -- please do note that those are STATES, not countries. Otherwise, each of those states might have a vote at the UN...as do each of the European COUNTRIES do. An off-topic example, but illustrates the absurdity.


Judy

sailorboy1 24-03-2014 04:31

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
So what happens to a cruiser if they overstay in the Med?

Katiusha 24-03-2014 06:07

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Imho, Schengen is really nice for travel. Prior to Schengen they had border checks at every country, and, considering that only some EU countries are as big as US states, that really impeded land travel. Not mentioning the pain to get visas for every. single. country (if you weren't from a visa waiver country - and that differed from country to country as well).

So lamenting lack of ease of travel on a single visa through multiple countries is strange. Imho, of course. Granted, this visa may not cover fringe cases (and 90+ day travel is a fringe case considering number of tourists visiting every year), but still much nicer than it used to be. Imho, of course :)

I would also agree that it would be ideal to cover our type of travel as well on Schengen visa, but it might be a low priority future improvement item, you never know :)

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 09:30

Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by svBeBe (Post 1500434)
It affects (not effects) 6 people sitting on boats berthed in this tiny 24 boat marina at this moment. Guess we are not 'anyone.'



And, as to your other comment about whine, whine, whine, when I next go to the USA can I stay 90 days in each state, whine, whine, whine -- please do note that those are STATES, not countries. Otherwise, each of those states might have a vote at the UN...as do each of the European COUNTRIES do. An off-topic example, but illustrates the absurdity.





Judy


You miss the whole point of the EU obviously. It aim is the creation of a form of US of Europe. Countries have given up considerable sovereignty to facilitate this process. In some respects certain things are easier across EU internal borders then across US states.

The effect of the ruling was to prevent the back to back loophole. I suspect very few people are in a position to make use of it anyway and very few countries immigration actually tolerated the loophole irrespective of what the ECJ said.

EU countries and UN is one of historic significance. I'm sure if the UN was set up at the founding of the US we might have had a few US states individually represented, given there historic antipathy to the union.


And please tell me exactly how it's affecting those 6 people.

Dave

goboatingnow 24-03-2014 09:32

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1500444)
So what happens to a cruiser if they overstay in the Med?


If they exit by yacht and not by aircraft and they don't overstay the 90 days in one country. Very little actually happens.

Dave

hoppy 24-03-2014 09:53

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by svBeBe (Post 1500434)
It affects (not effects) 6 people sitting on boats berthed in this tiny 24 boat marina at this moment. Guess we are not 'anyone.'

And, as to your other comment about whine, whine, whine, when I next go to the USA can I stay 90 days in each state, whine, whine, whine -- please do note that those are STATES, not countries. Otherwise, each of those states might have a vote at the UN...as do each of the European COUNTRIES do. An off-topic example, but illustrates the absurdity.


Judy

1% of tourists will moan about the 90 day visa whilst the other 99% will be pleased that they can go on a grand tour of 26 countries and not once have to queue up at passport control.

Schengen is not about the bloody foreigners, its about making life easier for us EU citizens.

Sure Schengen sucks for certain tourists, but I'd rather it suck for you than having it suck for me :whistling:

ilCigno 24-03-2014 10:16

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
And if I may add, every sailor and every visiting boat (even Americans ;) ) is as welcome in Europe as ever. If you ever want to visit Dutch sailing waters I, or one of my sailing friends over here, would be glad to welcome you.

And as far as I know at our Schengen borders we don't require you to be fingerprinted (yes, all ten), photographed, unfriendly questioned, body Xray scanned, body searched and to fill in forms even if you DO have the required visa as we experience each time when we fly into the US..... :)

MBLittle 24-03-2014 10:18

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1500707)
If they exit by yacht and not by aircraft and they don't overstay the 90 days in one country. Very little actually happens.

Dave

I'm confused. Maybe in reading wrong or reading into it.

But this post makes me think that if a cruising vessel spent 60 days in Greece and then 60 days in Italy before heading off for 60 days in Spain, that the Italians simply won't care that you spent an extra 30 days in their country, but Spaniards will turn you away because you've maxed out the 90 day max.

Is that basically what you said? Again, I could be confused.

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MBLittle 24-03-2014 10:19

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MBLittle (Post 1500745)
I'm confused. Maybe I'm reading wrong or reading into it.

But this post makes me think that if a cruising vessel spent 60 days in Greece and then 60 days in Italy before heading off for 60 days in Spain, that the Italians simply won't care that you spent an extra 30 days in their country, but Spaniards will turn you away because you've maxed out the 90 day max.

Is that basically what you said? Again, I could be confused.

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MBLittle 24-03-2014 10:19

Re: Schengen rules have changed
 
That was supposed to be an edit, not quote

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