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Factor 01-01-2014 15:37

Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
In the S2H regs I note that yachts are permitted to to use rubber bands for assisting in hoisting spinnakers. [RRS 55: Is amended to allow for the banding/tying of spinnakers for the purpose of hoisting.]

This is at odds with the provisions of the Marine Pollution Act 2012 NSW, which implements the provisions of MARPOL in NSW waters. See also NSW Policy Document.

I wonder how the self opinionated CYCA justifies that?

44'cruisingcat 01-01-2014 15:45

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
I'd like to know how much diesel a Sydney-Hobart winner burns.

Factor 01-01-2014 15:54

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
:whistling:Surely none at all - Its a sail boat race isn't it:whistling:

pdbms 01-01-2014 16:08

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor (Post 1428830)
:whistling:Surely none at all - Its a sail boat race isn't it:whistling:

with all of the modern high tech including canting keels, the big maxis are probably running diesel auxiliary full time.

Factor 01-01-2014 16:10

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Yeah, my response was tongue in cheek. The reality is that the S2H is a sailboat race where the leading boats have to retire if their motor stops working, very incongruous to me.

Uncle Bob 01-01-2014 16:21

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Last year it was reported that the winner had a 120 hp diesel running flat out to provide all the power and hydraulics to run the boat.
Motorsailing I would think. :whistling:
Whatever happened to the multihull guys that were talking about running thier own race starting an hour after the official race start ?

StuM 01-01-2014 16:50

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Don't know about the winner, but Perpetual Loyal runs a 240HP diesel non-stop to power all the hydraulics etc. Say 15 - 20 lph for 2 days? Somewhere in the vicinity of 800 - 1000 litres?

NorthPacific 06-01-2014 22:06

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
I must live in cloud cuckoo land. I never imagined that the cream of the crop, ran their engines like that, or at all. Now as a novel idea how about a race where you are disqualified if you start your engine for any reason?

S/V Alchemy 07-01-2014 05:51

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthPacific (Post 1433656)
I must live in cloud cuckoo land. I never imagined that the cream of the crop, ran their engines like that, or at all. Now as a novel idea how about a race where you are disqualified if you start your engine for any reason?

<joking>
What are you, Amish?
</joking>

Factor 07-01-2014 06:52

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy (Post 1433804)
<joking>
What are you, Amish?
</joking>

No mate, just a sailor.

NorthPacific 07-01-2014 12:30

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Amish! I only wish. I Think even them guys drive pick ups now. Funny, on all the sailing video they show, they must turn off the engine so as not to break the illusion of the purist adventure.

Well back to the corner with a bag over my head:-)

44'cruisingcat 07-01-2014 12:45

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthPacific (Post 1434189)
Amish! I only wish. I Think even them guys drive pick ups now. Funny, on all the sailing video they show, they must turn off the engine so as not to break the illusion of the purist adventure.

No, if you watch the transom of the big maxi's while they're still in the harbour, you see the water out the exhausts.

They CAN'T turn them off - they wouldn't have the powered winches or keel canting hydraulics. The engines have to run 24/7.

Here's an article about them:

https://www.afloat.com.au/afloat-maga...e#.UsxabjGIrIU

https://www.afloat.com.au/images/maga...ney-Hobart.jpg
The 628 mile Sydney-Hobart Yacht Race has long been regarded as one of the world’s greatest blue water classics, a supreme test of seamanship and sailing ability. But if Sean Langman is right, that well-deserved reputation, built upon 65 years of fierce competition, may no longer be entirely justified.

Langman, one of Australia’s most experienced and respected yachtsmen, is disturbed by what he sees as the unfair mechanical advantage enjoyed by the multi-million dollar Super Maxis, the so-called “push-button boats”, that use their diesel engines to generate the computer-controlled hydraulic power they depend upon.

Sean Langman explained his concerns in an interview with Bruce Stannard.

Early New Year’s Eve fireworks were bursting over Sullivan’s Cove as Sean Langman’s gaff-rigged 28-footer Maluka ghosted across the line to finish a distant last in the 2012 Sydney-Hobart Race.
The 80-year-old Maluka, the oldest wooden boat in the fleet and by far the smallest competitor, had been at sea for five and a half days. Langman’s amateur crew included his 18-year-old son, Peter, his daughter Nicki, his mate Shaun ‘Kiwi’ McKnight and his wife Erin and Josh Alexander. Far from being downhearted at coming last, the Maluka mob wore grins like the proverbial Cheshire Cat.
Having savoured the heady wine of close camaraderie and high adventure at sea, they came ashore as salt-caked heroes, laughing and joking and more than willing to turn around and do it all again. Their shared experience – in essence The Spirit of the Race – is one that has been cherished by Sydney-Hobart crews since the inaugural fleet set sail in 1945. It is the magnet of participation that draws crews back to the event year after year.
But now, as the Hobart approaches its 70th anniversary, there is a growing sense of unease in some quarters over the issue of stored power in the bigger boats. At the pointy end, the race has come to be dominated by professionally crewed Super Maxi yachts, multi-million dollar high performance vessels whose hi-tech canting keels and sail trimming winches rely entirely on hydraulic power generated by diesel engines that run throughout the race.
Does the use of this push-button stored power constitute an unfair advantage? Is this sailing or is it a weird hybrid form of power boating? Sean Langman believes it is time that these and other questions surrounding the Super Maxis were laid open for discussion.
In this context it’s worth reflecting on the truly astonishing performance history of Australia’s fastest ocean racer, the 100ft Super Maxi Wild Oats XI.
In her first season, 2005, she won the treble: line honours, handicap honours and set a new race record. In the 2007 Hobart Race she equalled Morna’s 59-year-old record by taking line honours three times in a row. In the 2008 Hobart Race she broke the record, winning an unprecedented fourth consecutive line honours. In the 2012 race she again won the treble: line honours and the handicap trophy and also established a new race record of one day 18 hours 23 minutes and 12 seconds.
One might have thought that such an amazing string of successes would have been sufficient accomplishment for even the most ardent yachtsman. And yet at the 2012 trophy presentation, Wild Oats’ owner Robert Oatley and his professional skipper, Mark Richards, made it clear that they were already focussed on winning the next race and the next; a never-ending string of victories that would go on “forever”.
“Winning,” Richards said, “is what it’s all about.”
https://www.afloat.com.au/images/maga...Yacht-Race.jpgThey were remarks that set me thinking about the ways in which Australia’s premier ocean race has changed since the inaugural fleet set sail in 1945.
Sean Langman, a Hobart Race veteran and one of Australia’s most respected yachtsmen, is far from happy with some of those changes.
“There is,” he says, “a false perception in high-end competitive sailing that says that if you’re any good you progress toward the super maxi kind of boat.
“But believe me, I’ve been there, and, having done that, I’m able to say without hesitation that push-button Super Maxi sailing is the least rewarding experience I’ve ever had.
“For those of us who know the exhilaration, the exultation of going to sea in a purely wind-driven vessel, the idea of having a noisy diesel engine revving away, all day, every day, during a race seems totally out of whack.
“The rate of the engine’s revolutions changes according to the output required of the hydraulic drives. Each time a new function is required, a new button is pushed and the engine revs its head off.
“It’s not a constant background drone. It’s a sudden dramatic screaming that generally coincides with manoeuvres, which is when the crew’s anxieties are at their highest. If you are of a nervous disposition it can be pretty unsettling.
“Wild Oats XI has a 150hp diesel that runs 24-7 during the Hobart Race. Without it, it is virtually impossible to sail the boat. If the engine stops they’re out of the race. No engine, no sail.
“I think this is wrong for the sport. If people want to use this sort of power for purely cruising purposes, I can accept that, but not for racing.”
https://www.afloat.com.au/images/maga...-all-about.jpgLangman explained that the power transfer system is computer-controlled and programmed to give priority to areas such as shifting the canting keel and in a gybing manoeuvre to the mainsail winch. Through these manoeuvres, he says, the engine can be overloaded and stall. And when that happens there is no hand-winding system as back-up.
“On a Super Maxi,” he told me, “the crew spend the majority of their time praying.”
Really? Praying for what?
“They’re praying that the engine keeps working,” he said. “You’re on a sailing boat and yet you rely completely on machinery to go on sailing. I find this to be such a negative part of the sport. You might as well be at home sitting in a shower, tearing up $100 bills.”
And what was the essential difference between a boat that takes a day and a half to go from Sydney to Hobart and one that takes five and a half days?
“The difference lies in the personal experience of being at sea,” he said. “It takes three days before your body gets into the routine and you settle down and really start to appreciate the experience of being at one with the boat, with the wind and the water.
“Some people have said to me, ‘five and a half days at sea must have been horrible’, and yet after the Hobart race everyone on board Maluka felt wouldn’t it be nice to keep on going. With six people on a 28ft boat, you end up pretty close.
“And that for me is what it’s all about. It’s not going from A to B in the quickest possible time. It’s about those priceless shared experiences. The great thing for me is that my kids wanted to join me on Maluka. They weren’t pushed into it and they certainly weren’t paid. They went for the kind of experience, the kind of challenge that was once at the heart of the Hobart Race.”
Langman says every participant in the Hobart Race should cross the line with a feeling of elation, a sense of achievement. But he says he had precisely the opposite feeling when he skippered the Super Maxi AAPT in the 2005 Hobart.
“There was no sense of achievement at all,” he said. “Instead of a feeling of accomplishment, I felt gutted. I felt that I got away with cheating. I’ve put my hand in the toaster several times and each time I’ve been gripped by the same hollow sensation.
“Going back to a little gaff-rigged wooden boat is such a complete contrast. It’s just you and your crew. That’s sailing pure and simple and, to me, that’s what the Hobart Race should be all about.
“At the heart of the race should be the belief that you are on equal terms with the other competitors. You should all be out there fired by the belief that you have an equal shot at winning. But if there are some boats with an unfair mechanical advantage thanks to their hydraulic power, albeit one allowed under the rules, then that makes nonsense of the whole event. It’s no longer what any objective person would describe as a race.
“The unfortunate thing in our sport is that the power base lies not with the administration but with the lobbyists directed by the high-end owners. In Australian ocean racing the rules have changed around the canting keel boats, around push-button sailing. It’s been quite astonishing to see the way in which things have been changed to reflect the desires of certain owners to win at all costs.
https://www.afloat.com.au/images/maga...-Kermandle.jpg“I don’t want to in any way belittle or diminish the achievement of the Super Maxi guys. They’re racing under rules that they helped to create. It’s just that I don’t agree with them. I’ve made my position known to them but they don’t want a public brawl.
“One of them told me, ‘if someone throws a rock at our house we don’t throw a brick back. We say nothing.’ My reply to that is that if someone throws a rock at your house they’re probably doing that for a reason. You should look at the reason why instead of simply saying we’re right and everyone else is wrong.”
Sean Langman stresses that he is not against speed. To prove it, his ORMA 60 trimaran is about to challenge the Sydney to Hobart world record set by Bob Miller’s 147ft ketch Mari Cha in December 1999. Mari Cha made it in one day 18hours and 37 minutes.

Jim Cate 07-01-2014 13:25

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
It is interesting that the S2H rules allow such diesel assisted maxi yachts but not any multihulls. One can but speculate that it would be a blow to the Oatleys of the world if a relatively inexpensive (by Maxi yacht standards) ORMA tri blew out the Maxi's best efforts.

I await the record attempt with interest!

Cheers,

Jim

44'cruisingcat 07-01-2014 13:34

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate (Post 1434233)
It is interesting that the S2H rules allow such diesel assisted maxi yachts but not any multihulls. One can but speculate that it would be a blow to the Oatleys of the world if a relatively inexpensive (by Maxi yacht standards) ORMA tri blew out the Maxi's best efforts.

I await the record attempt with interest!

Cheers,

Jim

Sorry Jim, that was an old article. The record attempt has been run and done, they did it in a bit under 30 hours, 12 1/2 hours faster than Wild Oats' race record.

Note, that was a pure sailing record, done in an ideal weather window, so can't be compared directly to race times. A hell of a lot faster though, averaged around 21 knots.

Langman and his ORMA have also set a new trans-Tasman record:

Langman's trimaran Team Australia smashes trans-Tasman record | The Mercury

NorthPacific 07-01-2014 14:48

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
So when does sailing cease to be sailing? I suppose it is the same in all sports! Professionalism, sponsorship, advertising revenue. Long since stopped having much interest in the olympics as a sporting event. It is a pure multinational, multinational commercial enterprise that somehow convinces national governments to fund its enterprise.

Wonderful how these super Sailing Machines can go, but in F1 you do not see the Red Bull and Lotus machines up against Fred Smiths week end special. maybe it is time for the sport to reinvent itself. Me I miss the days of Eddie Eagle and the Jamaican bobsleigh team. Long gone never to be seen again, probably the same in the Sailing Game as well. Still think the 28ft gaffer won! :-)

bill good 07-01-2014 14:59

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
If you are not happy with rubber bands then how would you feel about using a ball of wool to tie the sail instead?? That works equally as well. I am not sure where the America's cup is going with Mr Oatley challange. Maybe he will change to a multihull with that reflecting on the future of the Syd-Hba. Who ever thought the America's cup would ever be anything but a mono!!

Regards

44'cruisingcat 07-01-2014 20:34

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthPacific (Post 1434312)
So when does sailing cease to be sailing? I suppose it is the same in all sports! Professionalism, sponsorship, advertising revenue.

IMO you can still have sailing races even with all the commercial stuff. To me it ceases to be sailing when you need to have a motor running 24/7 in order to "sail". If you can't go anywhere without a motor, that's a motor boat.

44'cruisingcat 07-01-2014 20:36

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bill good (Post 1434321)
If you are not happy with rubber bands then how would you feel about using a ball of wool to tie the sail instead??
Regards

It's not about someone being happy, it's about the law. It's illegal to dump plastic overboard. Actually inshore it's illegal to dump pretty much anything overboard. Including wool.

boatpoker 07-01-2014 20:50

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Sailboat racers have a long history of flouting the law from laying courses in the wrong direction in shipping traffic lanes, failing to have someone on watch in long distance single handed races and boats full of diminishing liquor in club races. all in good fun :)

NorthPacific 07-01-2014 21:17

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Yip 44CC, agreed. But will it still be a Sailing Race when it will be soon possible to have drone mega yachts that can compete by themselves, no need for sailors, just computer techies on land anyplace on the globe?

Not that it has anything to do with me but if I was in charge it would be simple once sails are up, thats it no engine. Engine is needed then it means you are out of the race. then it is still in essence humans sailing rather than a sail assisted "thing"

sparau 07-01-2014 21:25

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Would 120hp be sufficient to drive a smallish off shore power boat that distance faster?

I know S2H rules state that auxiliary power only but IMO it highlights the absurdity if you could take their engine, install in a smaller hull, remove sails and go faster :banghead:

Perhaps the simplest way would be to get the maxi's to pay their carbon credits in time :)

StuM 08-01-2014 01:12

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
> Would 120hp

240hp on Perpetual Loyal.

IMNSHO, they should be governed by the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing:

52 MANUAL POWER
A boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull
appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power
provided by the crew.

cal40john 08-01-2014 02:41

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor (Post 1428813)
In the S2H regs I note that yachts are permitted to to use rubber bands for assisting in hoisting spinnakers. [RRS 55: Is amended to allow for the banding/tying of spinnakers for the purpose of hoisting.]

This is at odds with the provisions of the Marine Pollution Act 2012 NSW, which implements the provisions of MARPOL in NSW waters. See also NSW Policy Document.

I wonder how the self opinionated CYCA justifies that?


I wish people would worry about stuff working on the most important first and then working their way down to the least important. A few rubber bands or pieces of yarn, we're not even talking about a lot of them is way down on my list.

A group of lawyers sued the boat yards here for not upgrading pollution control systems. Turns out the yards were only responsible for 3% of the copper pollution. Think about it, 3%!!! Big victory. (sarcasm in case you missed it.) Where do you think some rubber bands fall percentage wise on the pollution scale?

valhalla360 08-01-2014 07:25

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
So if I mount a propeller shaped sail and use an auxiliary motor to spin it at a high rate of speed, I bet I can win a lot of races.

I'm thinking I head down to south florida pick up a used air boat and start dominating local club racing. (might have to work on the hull shape if they have any offshore races)

44'cruisingcat 08-01-2014 14:10

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Yeah, I was thinking of a rotating keel, rather than a canting keel. Mine would rotate, and possibly look a bit like a propeller.

44'cruisingcat 08-01-2014 14:11

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by StuM (Post 1434776)
> Would 120hp

240hp on Perpetual Loyal.

IMNSHO, they should be governed by the ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing:

52 MANUAL POWER
A boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull
appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by the power
provided by the crew.

I think a lot of people would agree with you.

Factor 08-01-2014 14:18

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cal40john (Post 1434797)
I wish people would worry about stuff working on the most important first and then working their way down to the least important. A few rubber bands or pieces of yarn, we're not even talking about a lot of them is way down on my list.

A group of lawyers sued the boat yards here for not upgrading pollution control systems. Turns out the yards were only responsible for 3% of the copper pollution. Think about it, 3%!!! Big victory. (sarcasm in case you missed it.) Where do you think some rubber bands fall percentage wise on the pollution scale?

You have totally missed my point. Its not whether it does any physical damage or not, its the fact the ISAF say it can't happen and the State legislation says it can't happen, yet the S2H organisers don't care.

valhalla360 10-01-2014 03:45

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor (Post 1435289)
You have totally missed my point. Its not whether it does any physical damage or not, its the fact the ISAF say it can't happen and the State legislation says it can't happen, yet the S2H organisers don't care.

There's a lot of things our lawmakers say that I could care less about.

noelex 77 10-01-2014 04:30

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
I really hate littering on land or sea, but rubber bands disintegrate rapidly. Is this really worth bothering about?

Unfortunately sailing even with the best intensions does create some litter/pollution. When going ashore I always try and pick up a few stray bits of litter on the beach.

Factor 10-01-2014 05:28

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
The ISAF thinks so. The NSW government thinks so. But what would they know.

Gerrycooper56 10-01-2014 06:05

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Drone sailing is sort of here now. You look at radio controlled yachting with strict class rules (as in IOM's) and the skipper sitting on the bank of a pond.

cal40john 10-01-2014 07:18

Re: Sydney to Hobart Race supports illegal actions
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Factor (Post 1436610)
The ISAF thinks so. The NSW government thinks so. But what would they know.

NSW probably has many laws people don't give a flip about. Do you follow every law?


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