Cruisers & Sailing Forums (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/)
-   Europe & Mediterranean (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/)
-   -   Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/greek-tax-merged-4-threads-115410.html)

letsgetsailing3 23-11-2013 06:07

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
So if I'm reading this correctly, large boats who don't spend much money will leave, residents with large boats will have to pay, and smaller boats who are just passing through will likely just pay the tax.

Some boats will move to Turkey or other surrounding areas.

Greek politicians will be able to claim that they've cracked down on "wealthy" boat owners. Some more taxes will be collected. Some fairly influential boat and marina owners will lobby like heck to get the law changed.

Sam Plan B 23-11-2013 07:27

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Cruiser: Well then, what's on the menu?
Greek: You can have fee and penalty with tax and fee.
Cruiser: But I don't want tax.
Greek: Then you can have penalty and fee and fee and tax.
Cruiser: But can I just have fee?
Greek: You can have fee or penalty and fee and tax.
Cruiser: But I said I don't want fee or tax or penalty.
Greek: In that case you can have fee and fee and penalty and tax and fee.
Cruiser: I think I will just go to Turkey.

svBeBe 24-11-2013 02:33

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NornaBiron (Post 1397935)
More than 10% of our budget, we're off!

480 euros for 90 days is more than 10% of your budget???? You spend less than 20k euro cruising a full year? That would be pretty darn basic living.

Judy

Sailmonkey 24-11-2013 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by svBeBe (Post 1398622)
480 euros for 90 days is more than 10% of your budget???? You spend less than 20k euro cruising a full year? That would be pretty darn basic living. Judy

Basic to some is comfort to others. Not all cruisers have large boats and dinghies to feed.

NornaBiron 24-11-2013 03:19

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by svBeBe (Post 1398622)
480 euros for 90 days is more than 10% of your budget???? You spend less than 20k euro cruising a full year? That would be pretty darn basic living.

Judy

We are 14.6m loa, anchor almost every day, including throughout the winter, are self-reliant and live on 9000 a year. We have a good life, rent a car occassionally, a bike more often, eat well on board and occassionally eat ashore. We don't feel like we are missing out on anything.

The tax for us will amount to 1500. It would be very difficult for us to prove that the boat is based in Greece for a year as we do not use marinas and do not lift annually. Therefore it is unlikely that we'd be able to get the 30% discount for paying for a year up front without causing some personal difficulties.

Thus the tax is much nearer 15% of our annual budget and is simply unaffordable for us. I'm sure we're not the only ones who are in this position.

Oh, and by the way, our way of life is far from basic. We have a much better quality of life than we had when we were part of the 'keep up with the Jones's' rat race in the UK.

beneteau-500 24-11-2013 03:59

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
ok after a Ouzo filled nite at cafe lotto on frid nite with the naxos fishermans union i have learned this on what the greek goverment propose , yes this cruising fee/tax has been passed in law but will not be implemented until accept in the govt budget for 2014/2015 is passed at moment there is great debate on this as the finance minister has stated that at the moment there is a primary budget surplus of 2.69 billion euros whilst others claim there is only a 860 million primary surplus but either way mrs Merkel is very happy .
so until this is resolved nothing will happen but they are determined to make happen
but what i have learned is this and the following figures are based on my old yacht of what i would have to pay in 2014

sailing Yacht

LOA 14.97 beam 4.75

Dekpa 38.14 euros

1/ 12 month cruising fee @ 100 X 14.97=1497 -30%=1047.90 euros +17% tax = 1226.04
2/ 90 day fee 10 X 14.97 X 449.1 + 17% = 525.44 euros
** note vat may go to 19%

Also to be Introduced is port charges and this yr several Island where doing this and Syros, Leros Symi and poros where implementing it with Finikas Marina at syros really making sure they got 100% collection and at the same time they where collecting data on what your last port was to see if the previous port collected any fees whilst many of the council run marinas collect marina fees vary the port fee charge will not
for example on poros you where charged 6 euros a nite finnikas 10 euros a nite Naxos 19.60 euros a nite Vilkada santorini 41.75 a nite .

besides the marina fees you will have to pay now also the following port charge based on my old yacht sizes 14.97 x 4.75 x .30=21.30 + 17% vat = 24.95 euros this charge is for a 48 hr period only so if you went to finnikas bay marina you want to stay one nite only you will have to pay 10 euros marina fee ( which includes 200 liters of water/elec) plus the port charges of 24.95= 34.95 for one nite or 44.95 for 2 nites the port charge will be reduce by 30% if you wish to stay a further nite or 2 .

How is this to be administered The Greek Gov are looking at the Symi port Model and will introduce Agents to do all the formalities so there will be an additional cost of between 50 & 60 euros

beneteau-500 24-11-2013 05:15

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
here is some comparison figures based on the new greek govt cruising fees against turkey

this yr i spent 90 days in turkey and 22 nites in marinas and cost me the following ,

checked in mersin 1/ transit doc's , visa , agent fees 352 euros marina fee 137 euros 4 nites total of 489 euros

2/ Aydincik marina 14 days 70 euros ( included power and water )

3/ Kas 134 euros 2 nites plus you have to supply your own bow mooring lines

4/ finnike 2 nites plus agent check out fee 126 euros marina agent 20 euros

at total of 829 euros spent on fees

the new greek system will cost me based on 90 days plus a few marinas

dekpa 38.14 cruising permit 525.44 marina fees based on Naxos charges plus port charges for 22 days = marina fee 19.59 x 22 nites 431.42 port charges for first 2 days 14.97 x 4.75 x .30 =21.30 then next 20 days @ 14.97 x 4.75 x.30 =21.30 x20 days =426- 30 % discount =298.2 + first 2 days 21.30 = 319.50 + vat 17% = 373.81 euros plus 100 euros agent fee ( guide only fee ) for checking in and out .

= a total of 1468.81 euros

comparison is Greece for 22 nites = 1468.81 turkey = 829 euros

Note turkey marinas are more expensive so if i had spent 14 nites in another marinas other than Aydinck like mersin or finnikie i believe the costs would be more than greece and would of come to around 1711 euros in turkey for the same 90 day period

Chris Robb 24-11-2013 05:18

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NornaBiron (Post 1398630)
We are 14.6m loa, anchor almost every day, including throughout the winter, are self-reliant and live on 9000 a year. We have a good life, rent a car occassionally, a bike more often, eat well on board and occassionally eat ashore. We don't feel like we are missing out on anything.

The tax for us will amount to 1500. It would be very difficult for us to prove that the boat is based in Greece for a year as we do not use marinas and do not lift annually. Therefore it is unlikely that we'd be able to get the 30% discount for paying for a year up front without causing some personal difficulties.

Thus the tax is much nearer 15% of our annual budget and is simply unaffordable for us. I'm sure we're not the only ones who are in this position.

Oh, and by the way, our way of life is far from basic. We have a much better quality of life than we had when we were part of the 'keep up with the Jones's' rat race in the UK.

Proving being in Greek waters for 12 months:
I really think they will not be looking for this - just getting an annual payment in advance in return for 30% discount - a normal commercial practice. To ask someone to prove that they will be in Greek waters for the next 12 months is not possible - as know one knows the future! So this is just a diversion from the problem at hand.

What is more worrying was the reference to Vat being charged on top - at present the islands pay 16% where as mainland is 23%. That would leed to a major exodus.

If they want to start collecting port dues as well in the manner of another post - who would pay that for a rough concrete wall with no facilities? At the moment I have been variously charged between 7 and 28 for one night. 7 is fine - 28 is not - so I haven't been near port police for a long time - I haven't actually seen them in the Dodecanese.

As I need to make a decision on next years marina contract, I may well have to depart to Turkey - that would be a shame.

letsgetsailing3 24-11-2013 06:10

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
I'm guessing that if you were willing to pay the fee for a year, the Greeks wouldn't be looking for proof that you were going to keep your boat there. Paying the tax would be proof of that.

nimbusgb 24-11-2013 06:47

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
As someone who keeps a boat in Greece 365 days a year but only launches and sails for about 5 weeks of the year a 400 + VAT represents a 100 per week charge for me. As Im under 12m I ( apparently ) can't pay for just the month or two afloat

Considering that they will still be collecting port fees and one will still have to fanny about wasting precious holiday time in offices that may, or may not have DEKPA papers, ink for their stamps or be even interested in collecting a few Euros in port duty moving elsewhere is becoming an option.

Croatia is more expensive but closer to home, I can drive down if I want.

Certainly worth considering.

Palarran 24-11-2013 07:13

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Welcome to the Cruisers Forum nimbusgb.

I had posted this on the other thread relating to this tax. A big difference is if you are a vat-paid boat or not. For us, this tax will make little difference.

As a non-EU boat I have to pay a cruising tax now. From Noonsite:

Non-EU Boats
Transit Log: Issued for 6 months and can be extended for up to 18 months: 80 Euros.
Cruising Tax Charge (replacing the Cruising Permit): 15 euro per metre, charged for each period of 3 months spent in Greek waters (about 200 for a 12m yacht). Payable at the end of each 90 day period and not payable if departing before 90 days. Missing this payment risks a fine. If your yacht is on the hard, this tax is still payable, so be sure to make arrangements for payment during your absence.

This adds up to 1080 euros per year for Palarran right now. If this law passes in the future I'll pay 100 euros per meter x 18 = 1800 then get a 30% discount for being permanent which equals 1260 euros. So this change would cost me an additional 180 euros.

I pay around 4500 euros for 10 months on the hard, haul out, and launch - complete. It's twice the price in Turkey - period - anywhere. Also, most of my quay moorings have been free in Greece, not so anywhere else in the Med.

I really like the Greeks, the scenery is awesome, food reasonable in price but not outstanding in taste, so again, for an extra 180 euros - great.

It's very cheap compared to Croatia.

nimbusgb 24-11-2013 07:34

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Thanks, been here for 3 years without a post!

My 5 weeks sailing costs me around 4500 Euro per annum. That's 47 weeks ashore, 2 launch an haul rotations, flights, ferries, taxis, lots of Ouzo, food and beer in abundance.

It's a little more than it would cost me to keep the boat in the South of England where I could tootle down to the boat after work 365 days of the year and just sit aboard or go out for an evening sail, entertain friends and explore further afield in the summer. I'd have to sacrifice much of the sunshine but I can get that anywhere at the end of a flight.

Palarran 24-11-2013 07:38

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
It will also be really interesting if you don't have to pay the tax when hauled out. If that becomes the case, this tax will actually save me money.

jckb 24-11-2013 08:18

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
The Cruising Association (CA) news item mentioned as a link at the start of this thread is being kept up to date. The CA is obtaining an accurate translation of the law, which should clear up some ambiguities, and will then ask questions of appropriate authorities in attempts to clear up remaining uncertainties.

Meanwhile, a few points, some of which may raise a few hackles! These include some of my conclusions in brackets, which aren't supported by official or CA reports or data, so take these with a big pinch of salt:

1. All small (under 24m?) boats over 7m used for leisure activities in Greece will pay the tax. This includes commercial leisure - charter boats, and day excursion boats licensed to carry fewer than 49 passengers, including those plying trade to other countries.

2. The large majority of craft affected are locally owned and operated, and are unlikely to consider leaving Greek waters.

3. Visiting boats are a minority, and it is realised by the authorities that some may consider leaving or avoiding Greece. The most vulnerable group are those over 12m LOA, who keep their boats on the water all year, who are on tight budgets.

4. The tax, or fee, affects boats afloat in Greek waters. Ashore on a hard is not afloat, (and arguably, boats on "innocent passage" will not be affected.)

5. That's tough luck for boats under 12m, which will have to pay between €200 and €400 for a calender year's license when they launch in Greece . . .

6. While boats over 12m have two options to reduce their fees: (a) pay for one month at a time while afloat in Greek waters at €10 per metre per month (calender? or 30 days?) or (b) pay for a full calender year and get a 30% discount (assuming pre-payment is the condition, although this is not worded as such in the law as published)

7. Surveys available to the Cruising Association indicate that less than a quarter of people who cruise their boats in the Mediterranean do so on "tight budgets". (It's highly likely that Greece won't miss these people too much due to their low spending habits)

And now for the fun byline which some of you may have already heard. "Boats plan to leave Croatia due to having to pay exorbitant fees for moorings, quaysides and marinas near popular locations". "Bureaucratic hassles in Turkey over waste disposal regulations are driving large numbers of visiting boats to other countries".

So, what's the destination of this grand migration?

It's a competitive world out there . . . and all destinations are working hard to calculate what price they can ask before the customers walk away.

Chris Robb 24-11-2013 11:24

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jckb (Post 1398774)
The [URL="https://www.cruising.org.uk/node/22634"]


4. The tax, or fee, affects boats afloat in Greek waters. Ashore on a hard is not afloat, (and arguably, boats on "innocent passage" will not be affected.)

Does it not say " sail, moor or Anchor in Greek waters?" Not sure about the afloat bit... We may find that the greeks call moored - on dry land. So just being there will mean you pay a year. I hope not but I wouldn't be too optimistic on this one.. I would be accepting of the tax if it was only for time afloat.....

Alenka 24-11-2013 12:06

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Nothing quite like biting the hand that feeds you.

Two years ago it seemed people were voting with their sails and moving out of Greece. Tavernas dead, shops empty, harbours with plenty of berths. This year people had just started to move back.

Places like Kastos rely on visiting yachts just to keep their village alive. How long before Greece is looking for another bail out from the EU to prop up comminities that cannot survive.

The best thing the CA could do is publish a list of email addresses for local village mayors and leave it up to the cruising community to directly voice our opposition.

Barra 24-11-2013 17:51

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Robb (Post 1398903)
Does it not say " sail, moor or Anchor in Greek waters?" Not sure about the afloat bit... We may find that the greeks call moored - on dry land. So just being there will mean you pay a year. I hope not but I wouldn't be too optimistic on this one.. I would be accepting of the tax if it was only for time afloat.....

Yes paying the tax on a hauled out boat or not is a key issue here. If it only applies to boats 'afloat" as Jim suggests then the tax is alot more reasonable for cruisers as they can opt to only pay the tax for the periods they are cruising.

ie the tax wouldnt negatively affect the skippers choice of haul out country and in doing so would save the thousands of jobs and businesses related to yearly maintenance etc.

Like you Ive lost all optimism on a rational outcome on this tax though due to the 12m step change fiasco and the 1 month (lack of) lead time.

Nicholson58 24-11-2013 18:41

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hoppy (Post 1391447)
Ok, maybe for boats over 12m it will be 400 plus 100 per meter over 12m :D

7m - 8m 200
8m 10m 300
10m 12m 400
Over 12m 100/metre

that pricing makes more sense than the jump from 400 to 1200 ;)

Why any sliding scale? We are two people on a 19 meter sail boat. We are 100% LED and other power reducing electronics & solar powered at that! At anchor, we displace a bit more water, but we don't take it with us. Our aux is only 115 HP compared to a power boat of the same size and SO WHAT. Fuel taxes account for that difference already. We impact the system no greater than a boat half our size. In fact, with holding tanks and composting heads, we are better able to comply with Zero Discharge than most small vessels.

Makes no sense at all. What makes sense is to make yourself attractive to all cruisers and other tourists and collect taxes from the businesses that will have favorable increases. A great example close to home is the city of Little Current in the North Channel of Canada. No charge for the city marina all day including water power, showers & internet at their great, well manned docks. Stay past 9:30 PM and you get a dock charge. Result is Little Current is the meca for re-stocking, theaters, restaurants, fuel, crew change. Nearby anchorages are free. We feel quite extravagant when we visit there and spend what would have gone to the local tax man on food and entertainment. -Nothing but winners all around.

You don't encourage mobile customers faced with choices by threatening to rob them. In a similar fashion, I choose not to sail near Somolia.

The Greeks, like the Italians, are in trouble due to their own excesses and failure to collect their own taxes. Their massive deficits will not be solved by raping a few tourists, however, they can make their situation worse.

As I recall, the Italians did something like this a couple of years ago and eventually decided that shooting one's self in both feet was a bad idea. Their marinas and future bookings dropped to unsustainable low numbers, like 5% or so.

jckb 25-11-2013 01:49

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NornaBiron (Post 1398630)
We are 14.6m loa, <snip>

The tax for us will amount to 1500. It would be very difficult for us to prove that the boat is based in Greece for a year as we do not use marinas and do not lift annually. Therefore it is unlikely that we'd be able to get the 30% discount for paying for a year up front without causing some personal difficulties..

Would the discount (down to 1,050) change your mind?

Alenka 25-11-2013 01:51

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholson58 (Post 1399173)
Why any sliding scale? We are two people on a 19 meter sail boat. We are 100% LED and other power reducing electronics & solar powered at that! At anchor, we displace a bit more water, but we don't take it with us. Our aux is only 115 HP compared to a power boat of the same size and SO WHAT. Fuel taxes account for that difference already. We impact the system no greater than a boat half our size. In fact, with holding tanks and composting heads, we are better able to comply with Zero Discharge than most small vessels.

This is not about protecting the environment. Greek people do not like to pay tax and now their country is just about bankrupt.

Unfortunately, they see taxing non-Greeks as a way out of their problems. Saling is not a pastime they take to in any serious numbers so a tax on boats will only affect a small number of Greeks. A popular type of boat with the Greeks is the covered RIB. They will launch the boat from a trailer and take it home with them at night and they won't pay the tax.

People who have bought villas in Greece are also being targeted - I understand they now have to pay a tax if they have a swimming pool. Again very few locals indulge in having a swimming pool.

At a time when they need every penny it seems they are hell bent on driving people away. Okay so maybe only 10% will move out. If I lost 10% off my income it would hurt and likewise this tax will hurt not help the Greek economy.

What happens next year (2015) when the revenue they expected fails to materialise? Are they going to increase the tax and drive even more people away??

jckb 25-11-2013 02:22

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Robb (Post 1398903)
Does it not say " sail, moor or Anchor in Greek waters?" Not sure about the afloat bit... We may find that the greeks call moored - on dry land. So just being there will mean you pay a year. I hope not but I wouldn't be too optimistic on this one.. I would be accepting of the tax if it was only for time afloat.....

Correct. I think your interpretation is unlikely, but this is one of many clarifications CA will be asking for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barra
Yes paying the tax on a hauled out boat or not is a key issue here. If it only applies to boats 'afloat" as Jim suggests then the tax is alot more reasonable for cruisers as they can opt to only pay the tax for the periods they are cruising.

The tax is a pre-payment, and once paid, there's no rebate for being out of Greece or out of the water! Yes, boats over 12m may pay for a month at a time. As above, the situation of boats ashore needs to be clarified.

jckb 25-11-2013 03:13

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholson58 (Post 1399173)
Why any sliding scale?

Because bigger boats generally have bigger budgets; maintainence goes up as the square of LOA, and depreciation the cube of LOA! So a linear increase in tax becomes peanuts
Quote:


Their massive deficits will not be solved by raping a few tourists
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alenka
Unfortunately, they see taxing non-Greeks as a way out of their problems. Saling is not a pastime they take to in any serious numbers so a tax on boats will only affect a small number of Greeks.

The large majority of those paying the tax will be boats used by Greeks (albeit some are registered on Belgian or UK small ships register!). As surveys in 2012 discovered, in this size range, Greek used boats out-number visitor boats about 3:1. EU boats will be treated the same way as these boats.

The majority of yacht tourism comes from charter boats, plus the 6 week invasion from Italy escaping Italy's high prices. Charters have 50% concession on their tax rates, and with their occupancy, the per head cost goes up by the princely sum of around 1 per week. The Italian invaders, with umpteen young people squished into each boat for a good holiday, are unlikely to be heavily affected.

Let's face it, live aboard tourism in Greece is trivial compared to that lot. 5% of the boat park will feel hurt, and may be re-thinking their plans. Bigger boats with frugal budgets may shift to Turkey for layup, and maybe visit by the month. I'm sorry for Kastellorizon and other islands reliant on visitors from Turkey. I suspect a few of the agents being appointed to collect the taxes may be persuaded to put telescopes to their blind eye.

NornaBiron 25-11-2013 03:45

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jckb (Post 1399385)
Would the discount (down to 1,050) change your mind?

Probably not, still more than 10% of our annual budget, just not affordable.
To be fair, we were leaving anyway. We'll now have to pay 600 to stay for the four months of 2014 that we planned. Hey ho, that's life. We've had a good, cheap, five years in Greece so we can't complain really.

athene 25-11-2013 04:12

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
The Greeks' assiduity in collecting taxes is not exactly exemplary, which is why they are in the situation they are at present. If, as jckb suggests, this tax will apply to the majority of Greek small craft owners as well, I can't see it being very successful.

What I can see is many more Greek boat owners slipping the odd 20 to the port police to turn a blind eye (I've seen it happen).

It will be interesting to see the nature and calibre of the 'agents' which are said to be in the process of appointment to collect the tax. Are we going to have a situation like the Croatia anchoring concessions, with dories descending on boats as soon as they anchor to levy the tax? Will they patrol the quays to pounce on yachts as they moor up? Will they have powers of arrest and detention if truculent skippers refuse to pay?

If it's going to rely upon skippers presenting themselves to the port police (once they've tracked down their often carefully concealed offices) like lambs to the shearer, then I think there's going to be large-scale evasion - especially by EU-registered yachts simply passing through en route to Turkey or other Mediterranean destinations. As a result, the tax will simply serve to damage Greece's legendary reputation for laid back hospitality without delivering its targeted financial contribution.

Perhaps if, as some posters suggest, the contribution envisaged from visiting cruisers is modest in comparison with that from Greek boats, it will be a tax more honoured in the breach than the observance.

jckb 25-11-2013 06:20

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by athene (Post 1399432)
It will be interesting to see the nature and calibre of the 'agents' which are said to be in the process of appointment to collect the tax. Are we going to have a situation like the Croatia anchoring concessions, with dories descending on boats as soon as they anchor to levy the tax? Will they patrol the quays to pounce on yachts as they moor up? Will they have powers of arrest and detention if truculent skippers refuse to pay?

Sounds just like arrivals in popular North European harbours!

Think Peter Port, Yarmouth IOW, Salcombe, Darmouth!

As the law is worded, they have powers to detain boats which don't carry a fee receipt until a non-discounted fee is paid, plus 100% fine. And the responsibility for payment rests jointly and severally on the owner, the beneficial owner, and the user of the boat. Nothing to do with flags and registration. Tough stuff.

athene 25-11-2013 07:49

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jckb (Post 1399478)
Sounds just like arrivals in popular North European harbours!

Think Peter Port, Yarmouth IOW, Salcombe, Darmouth!

Ah, but with an important difference. Assuming you're an EU-registered yacht, you're pounced on not for the right to be there but for the facilities provided. I can think of very few ports of call in Greece that provide anything to compare with the facilities of the harbours you mention. All those harbours provide the full spectrum, including free anchoring, tying up to mooring buoys and alongside berthing with water and electricity.

I don't think any EU skipper (and that's my own perspective on this) would object to this new tax if it were intended for reinvestment in the Greek harbour infrastructure - God knows it needs it!

FilBrown 26-11-2013 11:54

A new tax in Greece for visiting yachts
 
This is a clip from a news story that recently appeared.

Cruising sailors in Greece will be hit with a new tax of up to 400 euros a year.The imminent tax will affect everyone sailing in Greek waters and is all but imposed following a vote in the Greek Parliament on 21 November.
The Cruising Association (CA) has announced that the law has been voted on and accepted and looks set to be implemented as soon as it is published in a government gazette.The new tax means all boats over 7m used for leisure activities in Greece will have to pay up.
This includes commercial and charter boats, and day excursion boats licensed to carry fewer than 49 passengers, including those plying trade to other countries.Boat owners with craft more than 7m and less than 12m long will have to pay between 200 and 400 euros a year to sail in Greek waters. But boats over 12m face a tax of 100 euros per metre per year, with a discount scheme available if boat owners pay for one month at a time while afloat in Greek waters at 10 euros per metre per month, or 30% off if they pay for a full year in advance. This is still to be clarified and confirmed.Boats visiting Greece en route to Turkey, Croatia or Italy will be the hardest hit. Although in the minority of those affected by the new tax, the Greek authorities realise some cruising boat owners may consider leaving or avoiding Greece.
The most vulnerable group are liveaboards with boats over 12m, who keep their boats on the water all year and are on a tight budget. No tax is payable if the boat is ashore for a full year.The CA, based in London's Docklands, has been monitoring the situation in Greece as it has almost 1,500 members sailing throughout the islands.CA member Jim Baerselman, who has sailed in Greek waters for more than 30 years, said this significant tax could put many people off cruising in Greece.
It is understood that the tax is payable on entry to Greek waters and is valid only for that calendar year, which would mean anyone wintering in Greece would have to pay two years' tax. But boats over 12m only need to pay monthly.Implementation of the tax could possibly still be postponed or halted, but Mr Baerselman feels it is unlikely to be changed substantially.The new tax regime will not become law officially until it is published, but this is expected to take place in the next few weeks.

Can anybody confirm this story?

bbowers2004 26-11-2013 12:04

This is talked about extensively on another thread.

Seaworthy Lass 26-11-2013 12:16

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
A new thread was commenced on this topic 20 minutes ago. I have merged the two threads.

Saltyhog 26-11-2013 12:50

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
This is really unfortunate. It seems the folks there have really not learned a thing from their recent failures. We were looking forward to spending some time in Greece. It was one of the main reasons we're even considering going to the Med. Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps we'll skip the Med all-together. :confused:

Buena Vista 27-11-2013 01:31

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltyhog (Post 1400688)
This is really unfortunate. It seems the folks there have really not learned a thing from their recent failures. We were looking forward to spending some time in Greece. It was one of the main reasons we're even considering going to the Med. Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps we'll skip the Med all-together. :confused:

Hey Saltydog, don't give up on the Med just because a cash strapped Greece is imposing a tax, the extra tax is disappointing but not a deal breaker. Greece is a long way from being the jewel in the crown as far as Med cruising is concerned anyway, there's lots more to see.

goboatingnow 27-11-2013 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saltyhog (Post 1400688)
This is really unfortunate. It seems the folks there have really not learned a thing from their recent failures. We were looking forward to spending some time in Greece. It was one of the main reasons we're even considering going to the Med. Now I'm not so sure. Perhaps we'll skip the Med all-together. :confused:

You'd skip the med because of say a tax! I mean. even if you stayed for 2 months on a 14 metre boat you'd pay 140 euros a month. That's. not a lot taken in isolation.

Of course if the idea spreads !

Dave

jckb 27-11-2013 03:16

Re: A new tax in Greece for visiting yachts
 
Quote:

Can anybody confirm this story?
Yes. The British Cruising Association (CA) has a copy of the the law as presented to the Greek Parliament. It's in Greek, and the CA has a simple translation. The translation is adequate to form the conclusions you will see on Public Home Page | CA (look under the "Hot Topics and Latest News" section, and click on the "here" link)

The Cruising Association is obtaining a better translation, and will update that news item as further clarifications are received. Keep your eye on it.

I am personally working with representatives from other Cruising organisations (French, Swedish, German at the moment) and we're keeping each other informed of developments.

All organisations appreciate the anger of that cruising folk feel when costs suddenly rise - and they're caught in the net. As far as we can see at the moment, if the law stands as it is, no boat already in Greece will be forced to pay more than €400 than their current budget, and that will give them a year's cruising in Greece. Everyone has the option of moving to other countries if the further costs are too onerous.

However, these extra costs have to be weighed against those you'll pay in Croatia (entry fees, sojourn tax, high cost of quaysides and mooring fields in popular destinations), the hassle of dealing with black and grey water disposal in Turkey and it's entry and exit costs, and the high cost of services throughout in the Western Med. These are value for money judgements, different for each boat.

Now, my personal evaluation.

I doubt that, in the long run, these taxes would significantly reduce the amount of boats Cruising in Greece. I can see that people who have boats over 12m, who have been living aboard all year, will be embarrassed by this tax. These are a small minority. They will individually do their sums and decide whether to move on or not. Their choice.

JimB

beneteau-500 27-11-2013 03:59

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Saltyhog, please tell me what they haven't learnt.

4 yrs ago i was against this tax and that was through my own ignorance that i didnt understand fully ( and i have lived part time on Naxos for 20yrs ) or did not just want to see what value it would bring but i say now well done to the greek minsters for pushing ahead with this this tax will not drive away boaters only those frugal ones and those who have in the past entered greek waters and not checked in and then sailed out will be caught out this time as new patrol boats have and will be ordered and what my friends tell me here in naxos the navy is more likely to be used along side coast guard

whilst the new cruising law is now law it still has to be ratified into the 2014/15 Budget and wont be implemented until this is completed - this thurs/ frid is what they are hoping for as i understand it at the moment

Alenka 27-11-2013 04:19

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beneteau-500 (Post 1401177)
Saltyhog, please tell me what they haven't learnt.

4 yrs ago i was against this tax and that was through my own ignorance that i didnt understand fully ( and i have lived part time on Naxos for 20yrs ) or did not just want to see what value it would bring but i say now well done to the greek minsters for pushing ahead with this this tax will not drive away boaters only those frugal ones and those who have in the past entered greek waters and not checked in and then sailed out will be caught out this time as new patrol boats have and will be ordered and what my friends tell me here in naxos the navy is more likely to be used along side coast guard

whilst the new cruising law is now law it still has to be ratified into the 2014/15 Budget and wont be implemented until this is completed - this thurs/ frid is what they are hoping for as i understand it at the moment

Well this is how it will affect me and ultimately the Greeks.

Being on a fixed pension I won't be staying on for an extra three weeks in October to let friends have a free sail with me. I wouldn't think of asking them for money to pay the tax (bad manners) and I ain't subsidising them!

That means the Greek tavernas and tourist industry will miss out on four people spending money for three weeks.

I doubt the money raised in this tax will go anywhere to solving any problem or into making the facilities better - it will probably cost more to implement than it will raise.

beneteau-500 27-11-2013 04:39

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
well Firstly i agree you wont see any benefits not for 10 yrs at least but you will see some and like right now in naxos port works are being carried out through taxes raised this yr for once Alenka ( see Naxos island Greece | Webcams | Information about Naxos > Cyclades Islands web cams )I am 54 and retired i dont get a pension not for another 12 yrs but i planned ahead and ok i set up contingency funds for things like this happening or for other unforeseen costs. as for liveaboards i would doubt it counts for more than 1% of the total number of boats in greece and the figure would be more likely to be .01% and in a very very very small way we boaters from other parts of the world are to blame for some of this tax evasion in a very very tiny way when we have had work done on our boats and paid cash to the greek man for doing it

My personnel view is whilst i love the greek islands and the people of the Islands yes they are at fault for the mess but i think now that this has happened in 7 to 10 yrs i think greece will be even a better place to come and sail

athene 27-11-2013 05:31

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beneteau-500 (Post 1401177)

... this tax will not drive away boaters only those frugal ones and those who have in the past entered greek waters and not checked in and then sailed out will be caught out this time as new patrol boats have and will be ordered and what my friends tell me here in naxos the navy is more likely to be used along side coast guard

Only time will tell if you're right. One thing is for sure - Greece is going to lose its reputation as a relaxed, laid back, 'anything goes' sort of place, which is its attraction for most cruisers. Once stories get around of yachts arriving in Greek anchorages only to be pounced on by 'new patrol boats' or navy or coast guard vessels, I think the country's reputation is going to get a little tarnished.

Most cruisers have been willing to tolerate scruffy harbours with spalling concrete quays, rusty or missing mooring rings and bottom obstructions that can foul your anchor etc because - quite simply - it's cheap. Add a new cruising tax to existing charges - plus harbour mooring fees that have grown significantly in recent years - and a lot of cruisers will have second thoughts. Moreover, I'm afraid I don't share your optimism about the funds raised by this new tax being ploughed back into harbour improvements.

I'm not especially frugal; indeed, I retired four years earlier than you did, since work was getting in the way of cruising. But I still make a value for money judgement, and I'm not sure that hanging on my anchor in a rising wind with novice charterers dragging all around me (a far from unusual Greek harbour experience!) isn't making Croatia an increasingly attractive (if admittedly more expensive) alternative. So, maybe it isn't just the frugal ones that will go, because others can afford to move but simply don't choose to stay.

athene 27-11-2013 06:24

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
On reflection, I actually think we may all be wrong. I suspect it's the frugal ones that might stay - simply because Greece will still be cheaper to cruise than most of its neighbours (including Turkey). Since they have limited budgets, they'll just have to cut down on discretionary spending to afford the new tax. So, it'll be the taverna owners, shop proprietors and other leisure interests serving the cruising market that will suffer.

I wonder what their chances are of a bailout from the money raised by the new tax?

beneteau-500 27-11-2013 07:33

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Well i know a lot of people will jump on top of me on this one but i hope the money raised on the cruising tax is " Not " spent on marina facilities on the greek islands but on long term marina berths instead if facilities are to be improved on the Islands i believe that the charter companies charter boat owners should contribute to this as 90 % of the yachts that turn up to an Island marina are charter yachts and should not Receive discounts etc and i will give you a good example of this If any one has been to Santorini You will Know what a dump of a marina Vikilhda is but when the charter yachts moor up there they pay only one third of the cost of the marina fee this yr a friend who was doing skippered charter work from Santorini to mykonos all summer was only paying 12 euros a nite in santorini where as i same size boat was paying 41.59 euros a nite and when you get a free berth like in Ios And poros and Kythonos yachties stay for days especially in Ios I do know for fact that the port Authorities on Ios would like the council to charge yachties for berthing but because they dont the port Authorities cant collect port fees and taxes not even the ferry companies get charged there but where a council does charge for berthing then port fees and tax's are due but this has not been done on many of the Islands except for syros and Symi and about 3 others which has vigorously all ways collected port fees and for this i think we will see a big change next yr for these type of tax's as well

AndytheSailor 27-11-2013 08:38

Greek Waters Tax
 
Although I am not in the vicinity at the moment I am interested to here from liveaboards in Greek waters what they propose to do when the Greek government impose the new leisure tax on boats in Greek waters.
Will you pay up or leave?

Andy


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:58.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.