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-   -   Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/greek-tax-merged-4-threads-115410.html)

nickmilon 17-11-2013 17:09

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Don't forget same tax applies to Greek citizens too, they are not exempt from this while they have to pay some more based on boat ownership and other criteria, the only exception is boats belonging to charter companies but they do pay some VAT and other taxes.

Nostrodamus 17-11-2013 23:44

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nickmilon (Post 1393380)
Don't forget same tax applies to Greek citizens too, they are not exempt from this while they have to pay some more based on boat ownership and other criteria, the only exception is boats belonging to charter companies but they do pay some VAT and other taxes.

I think motor boats under 8m are excluded which takes out most of the locally owned Greek boats and fishing boats.

Nostrodamus 17-11-2013 23:47

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
As far as I understand it the costs for boats over 12m will be 100 euros per meter for the total length of the boat.
It is not 400 euros plus 100 euros for ever meter over... Those bowsprits could cost a few people several hundred euros.

Nostrodamus 17-11-2013 23:50

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Google translate:-
Following press release ' Union Marina Greece on the proposed implementation of the " End Residence and Operate ( COP ) of yachts ."


COMMUNICATION

The Board of Directors of the Union Marina Greece on " End Residence and commissioning "

To celebrate the addition of amendments to the draft Law of the Ministry of National Defense "Arrangements for the treatment of highly urgent and unforeseen needs " Greek Defence Systems SA " , which was discussed yesterday in the Greek parliament , the Greek Marinas Association , is deeply protest on the proposed implementation of the " End Residence and Operate ( COP ) of yachts " which will have extremely adverse effects on already any previous environment of marine tourism in our country.

Given the country's need for revenue inflow and acting in a critical environment where :

TAIPED performs the competitions concession marina and tourist boats seeking shelter investors marinas in the country have the lowest occupancy of the last 10 years and are anxious about their viability trying to stem the exodus of tourist boats started from similar measures in the recent past,
the continuous decline in turnover and unemployment soars professionals yachting as ever ,

the Union Marina Greece considers detrimental electricity for a country's economy , as it will result to prevent the advent of foreign vessels in Greece and prosecute those that have chosen our country as the permanent berthing .

More specifically, the action :

Will not achieve the target of additional revenue since it will receive anything from the vessels will leave to competing countries. Rather, it will result in a substantial reduction in government revenue from VAT and other taxes , such as revenues from fuel taxes , due to the departure of vessels within a few months , possibly before the end of this year.

Contributes to rising unemployment among seamen and professionals through retirement vessels.

Causes further insecurity and uncertainty in Greek and mostly foreign vessel owners will avoid our country for the permanent mooring of their vessel
Thus leading the Greek marinas which pay high rents to the State an even more negative outcomes, lower competitiveness and inability to fulfill their obligations.

Send negative messages uncertainty and risk in Greek and foreign potential investors exploitation and tourist ports , while ongoing competitions concession .

Strengthens such actions competing countries , which are directly and effectively exploit our weaknesses to enhance their own marinas within the same field of marine tourism , namely the Aegean and Ionian seas .

The Union Marina Greece proposes to provide effective incentives to attract vessels in our country and in Greek marinas , to enhance the economic value of the sector and government revenues such as:

- Reducing the rate of VAT for berthing and benefits ( in Turkey is zero ), as has been done in hotels and in focus.

- The abolition of all excise taxes, annual and contributory tourist vessels that choose Greece as their permanent mooring and especially foreign vessels that contribute significantly to move high quality tourism in our country.

We urge the Ministry of Tourism and SETE and all stakeholders shipping and tourism public or private nature struggling for tourism uplift the country and upgrading of marine tourism in our country to take a stand and to contribute actively to amend the relevant provisions the Law, so as to prevent their implementation .

NornaBiron 21-11-2013 09:22

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
The law was passed yesterday - guess we'll be leaving!

letsgetsailing3 21-11-2013 09:42

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NornaBiron (Post 1396602)
The law was passed yesterday - guess we'll be leaving!

I'm sure they'll miss you.

Are you leaving on principle, or are there other places as beautiful and that are less costly?

wmcruiser 21-11-2013 10:08

Been waiting for this info,where did you get latest update of the bill past?

goboatingnow 21-11-2013 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by athene (Post 1393035)

I think there are quite a few tavernas and other businesses - especially on the islands - that would disagree with you. I could list dozens of them in both the Aegean and Ionian that would probably not survive without the trade from cruisers.

Also, jumping country is a real option, which is why the association of Greek marina owners is strongly opposed to the measure, since they fear that Turkish marinas (which have advantageous tax treatment compared with Greek ones) will be the ultimate beneficiaries.

It's true that Greece has always been a cheap country to cruise (which is why so many cruisers go there), but then it's rare that you find anything in a Greek harbour other than some (often) rusty mooring rings or bollards to tie up to - and sometimes not many of them - plus a patch of mud in which to drop your anchor. Other countries which one might consider competitors for cruisers' custom frequently offer laid moorings, harbour staff to take lines, toilets, electricity and water - at a price, of course.

Rather than trying to impose a new tax, a better solution is radical reform of the management of those Greek harbours used by cruisers. Retire all the superfluous port police staff and employ a polyglot youngster for each harbour, equipped with a book of receipts and a bumbag, to help each yacht as it arrives and collect a standard charge. From my observation of Greek harbours, the revenue uplift would be massive and the impost would not be resented if it were appropriate to the facilities provided.

The solution to greeces problems involves firing a whole load of people probably with families. I smell a Strike

Dave

hoppy 21-11-2013 15:02

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1396723)
The solution to greeces problems involves firing a whole load of people probably with families. I smell a Strike

Dave

What's more likely, Greece firing people or the EU commission ending their monthly road trip to Strasbourg? :whistling:

Barra 21-11-2013 15:05

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nostrodamus (Post 1393578)
As far as I understand it the costs for boats over 12m will be 100 euros per meter for the total length of the boat.
It is not 400 euros plus 100 euros for ever meter over... Those bowsprits could cost a few people several hundred euros.

can you show us where you get this understanding from?

nickmilon 21-11-2013 16:50

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
IT has passed through parliament
my summary:
  1. 7 - 8 m/year 200€
  2. 8 -10 m/year 300€
  3. 10-12 m/year 400€
  4. > 12 m/year 100€/m starting from 1st meter so: 13m = 1300€/year
  5. or 10€/m/month

30% discount if vessel is based in country
Law is here (end of page 5) https://perivolos.gr/img/e84848120190...ISTHEN_EAS.pdf

or for G translation : Μετάφραση Google

Hope this ends all confusion (and starts some other debates)
Regards
Nick

Barra 21-11-2013 21:04

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Thanks Nick

So 12.00M 400 euro, 12.01m 1200 euro it is. It defies all logic but there you have it.

Start of november just rumours of changes to start of Jan tax in place - amazingly quick too. If only Greece had been that efficient in the past - maybe they wouldnt be in the mess they are.

Not much i can do about it since my boat is already there I guess and i didnt read anything about the usual transition periods or anything.

So over all the red tape in the EU. With 1 months warning this borders on a retrospective tax.

NornaBiron 22-11-2013 00:29

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 (Post 1396620)

Are you leaving on principle, or are there other places as beautiful and that are less costly?

We were leaving any way, our intention was always to circumnavigate the world not the Greek islands! We've had five years here, seen most of the coastlines and it is a beautiful country worth seeing. We will have to stay until April as we have visitors coming and flights to the UK booked. That will set us back €600!

Let's hope the law isn't implemented, like so many others here. See what happens as the 1st January approaches.

NornaBiron 22-11-2013 00:31

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Barra (Post 1397167)
Thanks Nick

So 12.00M 400 euro, 12.01m 1200 euro it is. It defies all logic but there you have it.

Start of november just rumours of changes to start of Jan tax in place - amazingly quick too. If only Greece had been that efficient in the past - maybe they wouldnt be in the mess they are.

Not much i can do about it since my boat is already there I guess and i didnt read anything about the usual transition periods or anything.

So over all the red tape in the EU. With 1 months warning this borders on a retrospective tax.

Sorry to be pedantic but that 12.01m would possibly cost €1300. Part metres will be charged at the full metre rate. This is Greece, they won't give change!

Barra 22-11-2013 00:49

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NornaBiron (Post 1397248)
Sorry to be pedantic but that 12.01m would possibly cost €1300. Part metres will be charged at the full metre rate. This is Greece, they won't give change!

Well lets hope you are wrong! or i may wind up in the brigg:banghead::banghead:

bring on turkey

hoppy 22-11-2013 01:06

Goodbye Greece!

I would cop a fair tax but if 20cm is going to cost me 800 extra then f..k the Greeks.

I was planning to move from Corfu next season but was not sure whether to stay in Greece or not.

robert sailor 22-11-2013 01:10

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Yes no one likes taxes but when your in Greece's position your going to get it where ever you can. We are Turkey now and are planning on heading west next spring so we'll have to figure out how to get thru Greece without paying...ideas?

hoppy 22-11-2013 01:19

I would perhaps reluctantly cop the 1200 or 1300 tax for my 12.2m yacht if it was more fairly implemented, I.e. the extra 20cm was costing only a couple of hundred more, but the huge penalty just gets me annoyed.

svBeBe 22-11-2013 02:59

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nickmilon (Post 1396939)
IT has passed through parliament
my summary:
  1. 7 - 8 m/year 200€
  2. 8 -10 m/year 300€
  3. 10-12 m/year 400€
  4. > 12 m/year 100€/m starting from 1st meter so: 13m = 1300€/year
  5. or 10€/m/month

30% discount if vessel is based in country
Law is here (end of page 5) https://perivolos.gr/img/e84848120190...ISTHEN_EAS.pdf

or for G translation : Μετάφραση Google

Hope this ends all confusion (and starts some other debates)
Regards
Nick

So for our 16 mtr boat it would cost 10 euro per meter per month, or 160 euro for one month or 480 euro for 3 months. That is not exorbitant as compared to the cruising tax in Croatia others report they have paid there. Or what others have reportedly paid for the privilege to cruise Montenegro. This new Greek tax will not change any of our Med cruising plans.

Judy

Jacques2 22-11-2013 03:01

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Latest news I have :
Marine Circulation Taxes | Greece.GreekReporter.com Latest News from Greece

It is not new, but shortly and easy to understand . we have to wait for knowing if a new law will pass or not...

athene 22-11-2013 03:19

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
I don't think I'd like to be a Greek port police officer when all the skippers who have laid up in Greece for the winter return next year to find they've suddenly become subject to a significant unexpected tax.

It's cleverly framed not to penalise Greek private vessels (the vast majority of which are motor boats under 12 metres) and charter operations (who get a 50 per cent reduction). The government's argument, of course, is that most surrounding countries levy various forms of tax, e.g. Croatia, Italy, Montenegro and Turkey. The difference is (I'm afraid to say) that most Greek harbours provide absolutely nothing for the money, whereas in their competitor countries visiting yachts at least get a modicum of facilities, even if there are notable exceptions.

It wouldn't be so bad if this money was going to be reinvested in general harbour infrastructure to e.g. repair broken mooring rings, install water and electricity points, clear old mooring chains and blocks, refurbish quays, even maybe put in laid moorings etc, but sadly that's highly unlikely.

I fear the net result of this tax will be a boost to government revenues at the expense of hundreds of Greek businesses that depend on cruisers for survival, since many cruisers (as some of the postings here show) will bypass Greece or simply spend less time there.

In 2013 many taverna owners and other businesses in cruising areas were already complaining about reduced trade - they may (for no fault of their own) find 2014 marks the start of some even tougher years to come.

beneteau-500 22-11-2013 03:21

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
And what you will find happening next yr will be Yachts coming across from turkey into greek waters will be checked more Thoroughly as quiet a few yachts will anchor in a bay like a Pedie on the Island Of symi and around Mandraki Kastelhorizon with out checking In and on kastelhorizon the radar system used there by the military has been upgraded

Nostrodamus 22-11-2013 04:15

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
We would have wintered in Greece next year and paid for haul out/ antifoul.
Now we would not.
Why should I pay 700 euros over 6 months plus the marina costs. It would be far too expensive. I should imagine many will do the same and go to other nearby countries where you do not have to pay a tax for just sitting there.
This will certainly mean many boating associated trades going under.

beneteau-500 22-11-2013 05:07

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
well why not set up a poll on here and vote how many yachties are willing to pay this new cruising tax and lets see how many will now not sail in greek waters and how many will leave

Nostrodamus 22-11-2013 05:33

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beneteau-500 (Post 1397346)
well why not set up a poll on here and vote how many yachties are willing to pay this new cruising tax and lets see how many will now not sail in greek waters and how many will leave

The trouble is it is a law that has been passed but no one understands how it will be implemented.
I may pay for several months in summer when you can actually sail but I would not want to pay in winter when conditions prevented me from going anywhere.
From what I can see you also don't have to pay if your boat is out the water.
At the moment there are too many if's and buts.
It has just been passed to appease the EU so it can get it's money from them but I don't know if they understand what they have passed.
It seems to be a general thing and none of the implication decisions have been made.

letsgetsailing3 22-11-2013 06:32

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Nobody likes taxes. Especially wealthy Greeks and Italians, who are famous for not paying. Decades of people not paying their taxes makes people who aren't paying confident, and makes anyone who is paying feel like an idiot.

The most famous story in Greece is that they implemented a tax on pools, but in the Athens area only 324 people were admitting to having pools, out of over 16,000 estimated actual pools.

The problem is that nobody in Greece wants to pay taxes, but the people expect European-style benefits. You can't have both.

So yes, the problem is bigger than a few yachts.

Is it worth paying the yacht tax and in order to cruise in Greece? It's up to the cruisers themselves. I guess if I were in Greece on a boat I wouldn't want to pay this tax, either, but I do love sailing in Greece. You have to look at the overall costs, not simply the principle of paying a tax. It may be that you still come out ahead.

Tellus 22-11-2013 07:48

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
don΄t hit me, but to me some are complaining on a very high level.
...Owners of Oyster, Swan, CC..and so on...

athene 22-11-2013 07:51

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellus (Post 1397450)
don΄t hit me, but to me some are complaining on a very high level.
...Owners of Oyster, Swan, CC..and so on...

So it's even worse than we thought. Greece is going to lose the big spenders ...

athene 22-11-2013 07:59

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nostrodamus (Post 1397358)
The trouble is it is a law that has been passed but no one understands how it will be implemented.
I may pay for several months in summer when you can actually sail but I would not want to pay in winter when conditions prevented me from going anywhere.
From what I can see you also don't have to pay if your boat is out the water.
At the moment there are too many if's and buts.
It has just been passed to appease the EU so it can get it's money from them but I don't know if they understand what they have passed.
It seems to be a general thing and none of the implication decisions have been made.

Unfortunately (although the article as translated by Google isn't exactly crystal clear) that may or may not be a false assumption. The Article refers to 'ships and small boats, regardless of their flag, sailing, moored or anchored in Greek territorial waters'. Does a laid up yacht count as 'moored or anchored'? I wouldn't bet against the Greek authorities interpreting any ambiguities in their own favour rather than that of cruising yacht owners.

beneteau-500 22-11-2013 08:10

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
well i arrived back in naxos last night and have just spent the day going through a pile of mail and strike me dead i got my annual property tax bill of which is late in paying and water/elec bill my normal Naxos and sth Aegean prefecture bill is 1500 euros per yr but they have raised it this year by 14% which is now 1710 euros as i was late in payment i got a wait for it 100 % fine of total amount out standing and talking to my neighbours this morning right at this moment tax inspectors are doing the rounds on all the hotels and rental apparments and i believe they have found 57% of the business have failed to declare the full tax earnings and so far 2 business which have about 30 holiday units between them have had there property's confiscated of to the local cafe tonight so will be able to find out more but one thing i have found out about the cruising tax is that agents are to be set up for the collection a bit like turkey so that will add more fees

athene 22-11-2013 08:27

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beneteau-500 (Post 1397459)
... but one thing i have found out about the cruising tax is that agents are to be set up for the collection a bit like turkey so that will add more fees

Thanks for that useful post. Can you add anything after your visit to the cafe (assuming the tax inspectors haven't closed it by the time you get there) to help with Nostrodamus' query - i.e. does time on the hard standing count as being 'moored or anchored' in the country?

It's of interest to me too, since it would be useful to know if I'm expected to cough up €650 as soon as I arrive back in Preveza next May.

Obviously, as Tellus opines above, it won't cause you as a Swan 65 owner or me as an Oyster 435 owner any financial distress. Like me, you probably light your cigars with €100 notes ...

nickmilon 22-11-2013 08:27

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
by the way, here is Greek Minister of shipping pages on twitter and facebook, just in case you want to tell him how you feel :whistling:

[URL="https://twitter.com/MVarvitsiotis"]

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Miltiadis-Varvitsiotis/11826062300

letsgetsailing3 22-11-2013 08:43

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellus (Post 1397450)
don΄t hit me, but to me some are complaining on a very high level.
...Owners of Oyster, Swan, CC..and so on...

I noticed that.

letsgetsailing3 22-11-2013 08:49

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by athene (Post 1397451)
So it's even worse than we thought. Greece is going to lose the big spenders ...

If they're really big spenders, will a few hundred euro change their plans?

Won't they spend that in order to move their boat somewhere else?

It's true they might move on the principle that they hate the word "tax", but the Med is truly a beautiful place. I think Italy and Greece will still have sailboats, though this might free up some marina space.

Pete7 22-11-2013 08:52

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 (Post 1397487)
If they're really big spenders, will a few hundred euro change their plans?

Won't they spend that in order to move their boat somewhere else?

No, in fact the opposite, they will have the nice places to themselves after the great unwashed upsticks and move.

Pete

boatman61 22-11-2013 09:07

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7 (Post 1397490)
No, in fact the opposite, they will have the nice places to themselves after the great unwashed upsticks and move.

Pete

LMAO......:thumb:

Barra 22-11-2013 10:09

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 (Post 1397487)
If they're really big spenders, will a few hundred euro change their plans?

Won't they spend that in order to move their boat somewhere else?

It's true they might move on the principle that they hate the word "tax", but the Med is truly a beautiful place. I think Italy and Greece will still have sailboats, though this might free up some marina space.

Its not a few hundred euros though! 1cm over 12m and its 1300 euro. like others have said 400 or even 500 euro to cruise greece is neither here nor there but at 1300 its way more than any other nearby cruising ground.

The fact that -
1. it was introduced with 1 months notice (in winter when you cant realistically leave and most boats are already laid up)
2. triples the penalty at an arbitrary 1cm over 12m
3. is designed so that most greeks wont pay it
4. will not provide one iota of additional services to cruisers in return
5. applies to boats laid up when they cant even cruise
6. will harm hundreds of small greek businesses that support the cruising industry

means that there will be alot of angry skippers in greece next year that will leave on principal im sure.

No fun cruising a place if you feel like some greek b@#tard has shoved a rubber dong up ya date!

miyagimoon 22-11-2013 13:47

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by svBeBe (Post 1397288)
So for our 16 mtr boat it would cost 10 euro per meter per month, or 160 euro for one month or 480 euro for 3 months. That is not exorbitant as compared to the cruising tax in Croatia others report they have paid there. Or what others have reportedly paid for the privilege to cruise Montenegro. This new Greek tax will not change any of our Med cruising plans.

Judy

What you forget is that not everyone has your sort money. This tax is also being imposed on the locals. They will therefore be paying the full yearly fees (less the discounts of course).

We know people who sail on a very small budget this new tax could add up to be as much as 10% of their budget. Now if it was 10% of yours, would you not be a little concerned and possibly decide either to leave or not visit that country at all.

Your ever friendly

Albert

goboatingnow 22-11-2013 16:53

I noticed in that translation a 20% surcharge if you paid monthly. Ouch!


Dave

NornaBiron 23-11-2013 03:39

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miyagimoon (Post 1397650)
What you forget is that not everyone has your sort money. This tax is also being imposed on the locals. They will therefore be paying the full yearly fees (less the discounts of course).

We know people who sail on a very small budget this new tax could add up to be as much as 10% of their budget. Now if it was 10% of yours, would you not be a little concerned and possibly decide either to leave or not visit that country at all.

Your ever friendly

Albert

More than 10% of our budget, we're off!


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