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Nostrodamus 14-11-2013 23:18

Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Anyone planning to visit Greece in the future should be aware of this...

New Greek Cruising Tax proposed | CA

AiniA 14-11-2013 23:22

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Great way to not get cruisers to come to your country. Our boat would be 1400 euros. Turkey must be pleased.

Nostrodamus 14-11-2013 23:36

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AiniA (Post 1391166)
Great way to not get cruisers to come to your country. Our boat would be 1400 euros. Turkey must be pleased.

I doubt some people in Turkey would be pleased.. they have just bought out a lot of the Greek marinas!!!

Kenomac 15-11-2013 00:34

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
$200 per month to visit Greece? Well, that will certainly encourage us to spend more time in Turkey, less time in Greece. Well done Greece.

Nostrodamus 15-11-2013 00:39

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenomac (Post 1391185)
$200 per month to visit Greece? Well, that will certainly encourage us to spend more time in Turkey, less time in Greece. Well done Greece.

Your right, we would have to cut down on the wine. That is 100 bottles a month we would have to loose to pay for it. Doesn't bare thinking about.

The Greeks seem to have gone mad. They reduce the tax on restaurants to encourage tourism and then want to tax boat owners so much they will never go there.

WebWench 15-11-2013 03:47

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
This is not surprising.....when have be auroras ever had any understanding of how business works.
When boat tourism drops off radically they will be forced to rethink this issue.

Boatguy30 15-11-2013 05:55

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Never been there, but seems like the anchorages would be a lot less crowded. I've been saying for 10 years this is the coming model. Clearance and ports fees, tax whatever are going to skyrocket world wide.

For my boat would be a lot less and also for a whole year.

But seriously, it's like "why do you rob banks" not to hard for these countries with prime cruising grounds to figure out who to charge more.

The sad thing is no doubt huge whores of the sea cruise ships will be exempted.

Saltyhog 15-11-2013 06:30

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Guess I won't be going to Greece. Too bad, I'll just spend my money elsewhere.

sailorboy1 15-11-2013 07:01

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
I will just add this to my planning and pay the tax if needed. I just don't believe that that for me going to the Med and not going to Greece as a desired option.

But till it is really approved there isn't any reason to get all in a panic. The coastal towns and businesses that depend on cruisers are going to push back like last time and I bet changes are going to be made to the law.tax.

Tellus 15-11-2013 07:48

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1391307)
But till it is really approved there isn't any reason to get all in a panic. The coastal towns and businesses that depend on cruisers are going to push back like last time and I bet changes are going to be made to the law.tax.

Agreed. It´s a dead horse from my sight, because since many years the same story comes up again and again. Meanwhile turkish investors have bought some greek marinas. They wouldn´t invest if they had to fear that marinas will be empty in future. Even Greeks live from income not only from sunshine.

MarkJ 15-11-2013 08:07

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
It's a very hight amount to pay when we would be on a shengan visa thus only allowing a maximum of six moths per year in the EU.

Not only this, it makes it quite a passage to avoid stopping in Greece on a transit from italy to turkey or visa versa. Med weather is quite variable.... And one would be inside Greek Territorial waters a lot too....

Bizarre they could expect 400 euros of a 39 foot boat and 1,200 euros of a 40 footer... Madness.

beneteau-500 15-11-2013 08:08

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
this will get bounced right out of parliament once again over the past 4 yrs they have tried to introduce this and it has not passed the final stages what you will see more of is port fees being Charged where by the port police will start charging you on top of the marina fees ie a good example was this yr in Syros at finnikas bay you pay 10 euros a night mooring fee which will give you 200 liters of water and so much elec but on top of the mooring fee say for a 12 meter yacht boat you will pay 17 euros port fee . this was being done on several islands and where it was done they all ask what your last port of call was , they where in fact carrying out a survey so they can hopefully implement the port fees .
one island that is at a stalemate is Ios the port police want to start charging boats but the current mayor does not want charges introduced because he feels it will detract from boats calling and spending money but the port police see that to many boaters like the brits and aussies seem to park up for a few weeks here and prevents other boats getting a berth.

But all in all yes you will be hit with variety of new charges next yr

Palarran 15-11-2013 08:16

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sailorboy1 (Post 1391307)
I will just add this to my planning and pay the tax if needed. I just don't believe that that for me going to the Med and not going to Greece as a desired option.

I agree. Also there is a 30% discount if you are long term, which I am. It's still a lot but I've got to look at what you get also. In Croatia it costs 200 euro for one night on a village quay. In Greece, it's free or less than 25 euro. In Turkey you will have to install a gray water holding tank to cruise there, not so in Greece. The food and drink is substantially less than anywhere else we have been in the Med.

beneteau-500 15-11-2013 08:17

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
this is why it will get thrown out and local charges will apply the hellenic seaways union are outraged and will start causing probs


Bizarre they could expect 400 euros of a 39 foot boat and 1,200 euros of a 40 footer... Madness.

MarkJ 15-11-2013 08:22

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Palarran (Post 1391347)
I agree. Also there is a 30% discount if you are long term, which I am. It's still a lot but I've got to look at what you get also. In Croatia it costs 200 euro for one night on a village quay. In Greece, it's free or less than 25 euro. In Turkey you will have to install a gray water holding tank to cruise there, not so in Greece. The food and drink is substantially less than anywhere else we have been in the Med.

Sounds like the south of France and Monaco will be the new cheap places to cruise... Along with Porto Fino and the Italian riviera...

beneteau-500 15-11-2013 08:24

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
are the Italians will be trying to introduce new fees from june 14 i was in udinise last week the prob they have is port police dont want to collect fees and do paper work

Palarran 15-11-2013 08:58

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 1391350)
Sounds like the south of France and Monaco will be the new cheap places to cruise... Along with Porto Fino and the Italian riviera...

We didn't use many marinas last year but from memory we spent around 200 to 300 euro per night anywhere we docked in France, Spain, and Italy. That adds up quick. Then add in how much it costs for winter layup - nope, I'd pay a few thousand euro to be in Greece and be happy with it.

Boatguy30 15-11-2013 09:15

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Better than the Bahamas where they charge a blue collar guy lucky enough to have. 31 footer the same as some 200' mega yacht.

hoppy 15-11-2013 09:51

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ (Post 1391341)
Bizarre they could expect 400 euros of a 39 foot boat and 1,200 euros of a 40 footer... Madness.

My boat is 12.2m so that extra 20cm will cost me €800


I work with a guy who also has his Bene 464 in Greece. He was talking about one more season in Greece before moving on, but that plan might change.

hoppy 15-11-2013 10:00

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Ok, maybe for boats over 12m it will be €400 plus €100 per meter over 12m :D

7m - 8m €200
8m – 10m €300
10m – 12m €400
Over 12m €100/metre

that pricing makes more sense than the jump from 400 to 1200 ;)

Capt Phil 15-11-2013 10:20

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Certainly glad we did our cruising in Greece and Turkey about 25-30 years ago when the folks were friendly and helpful, the weather and water were marvelous, the drachma was cheap and the food was outstanding. Pity to see it all going down the shitter because of some greedy politicians. Providing a cruising experience to remember is a competitive business and Greece is working hard at ensuring it will be a financial nightmare to cruise there. Good luck with that! Phil

Boatguy30 15-11-2013 10:31

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Those greedy politicians should keep giving it away!
Worked out for them so far........

Tbrad 15-11-2013 10:57

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Should I take some comfort in the realization that all the idiotic politicians are NOT in the USA?

yeloya 15-11-2013 16:50

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
I don't think this will ever be approved by the Parliament and or applied in any Greek islands, particularly in the Dodocanese which are very close to Turkey.
Most of this islands are making their lies out of Turkish boats and noone will pay this fee. Today most of these boats are visiting Greece w/out any visa, transit log, etc, Last month I visited one islands that was not popular for turkish boats earlier. When I saw too many of them this time, I asked the lady who runs one of the restaurants in the marina. The answer was "yeeahh, we just sent the cost guard to another port in the island, there is noone anymore to disturb the turks who are coming w/out papers and the business has improved dramatically since then". Actually, 9 tables out of 10 was turkish citizens..
The point that Mark has made is a valid one; someone who sails from Italy or Croatia to Turkey w/out willing to spend too much time in Greece, it's a long way to make in one shot, paprticularly if weather conditions are not favorable..Who is going to pay 1.000 USD for couple of days or nights?
Does it hhelp Turkey ? Iı am not so sure. It may for the ones who needs wintering and wants to fix couple of issues with their boat. But Turkey was already much better option on this respect. For cruisers who would spend a year or so, they may afford anuway to spend this money. For Greek charter industry, shouldn't be a major issue, they may even be free of this fee. Not a good news for Turkish charter boats; 60% of them want to visit couple of nearby greek islands and this will be even more costly..
Cheers
Yeloya

bobconnie 15-11-2013 19:16

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
:thumb:Im with Capt Phil on this one !! 25 yrs ago when we were there, We found it to be a fantastic place to cruise!! Cheap and fun!! Folks seemed to really enjoy us being there !! I really believe we got more gifts there then even in the South Pacific!! Ahh well now I don't feel so bad about just being able to cruise the Carlbe!! LOL:whistling:

Tellus 16-11-2013 04:50

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt Phil (Post 1391461)
Certainly glad we did our cruising in Greece and Turkey about 25-30 years ago when the folks were friendly and helpful, the weather and water were marvelous, the drachma was cheap and the food was outstanding.

Yepp, but since few years our currency called Euro with all its problems.
At the beginning we had huge problems even in Germany, because of parity to $$.
For my opinion it´s a birth defect by Brussels to keep some countries in the Euro zone. Has speed up their problems.

athene 16-11-2013 06:08

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
The Greek port police appear to have been on a charm offensive in recent years, compared with when we first arrived in Greece in 2005. However, they'll be in the front line on this one (in the event it's ever implemented) and I suspect it would become an impost more notable in the breach than in the observance.

But that's not the point. No sensible government imposes a swinging tax on movable assets, because it's just too easy to relocate them to a more benign tax regime. Even the rumour (as is clear from the postings here) is enough to deter a lot of cruisers from visiting or returning to Greece.

Greece is only now beginning to get back on its feet after the financial crisis of the past three years: you don't take the patient off life support just as he's starting to breathe normally again.

gloriax 16-11-2013 07:12

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
No offend people and do not like to sound rude or offend any one. but if you do not like it, do not come, do not go there . That is their country, they can do whatever they wont.. accept it or go somewhere else.

And do not give me that story about cruisers and money they spend, that is insult on the anyone intelligence. 99% of them will it **** if they can get it for free.

It pissed mi of when people start complaining about other countries and same time in their own country they have to pay even for the air that they breathe.

MarkJ 16-11-2013 07:33

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gloriax (Post 1392171)
No offend people and do not like to sound rude or offend any one.

And do not give me that story about cruisers and money they spend, that is insult on the anyone intelligence. 99% of them will it **** if they can get it for free.

It pissed mi of when people start complaining about other countries


Hmmmmm have you ever cruised, gloriax? Can you, ahem, sail?

Are you ment to be on the polemics knitting forum?

athene 16-11-2013 09:35

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gloriax (Post 1392171)
No offend people and do not like to sound rude or offend any one. but if you do not like it, do not come, do not go there . That is their country, they can do whatever they wont.. accept it or go somewhere else.

And do not give me that story about cruisers and money they spend, that is insult on the anyone intelligence. 99% of them will it **** if they can get it for free.

It pissed mi of when people start complaining about other countries and same time in their own country they have to pay even for the air that they breathe.

Let's hope the Greeks don't share your attitude - they have enough problems as it is (though not with writing proper English ...)

dana-tenacity 16-11-2013 15:43

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
At $1,900 Euros (over $3k in NZD) I'd be out. Pity, always wanted to sail there.

gloriax 16-11-2013 16:34

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by athene (Post 1392272)
Let's hope the Greeks don't share your attitude - they have enough problems as it is (though not with writing proper English ...)


hehehe, do not you worry about my English. English is not even my second language. I wonder how many foreign languages you can speak, let alone write.

Any way, for Greeks or any other country that have or will implement any charges, as I said before,

What do you expect – you Brits invented....no such a thing as a free lunch, you get what you pay for.


Dubrovnik this morning



https://i39.tinypic.com/2a7fjpe.jpg

https://i41.tinypic.com/33ess8y.jpg






England this morning..


https://i41.tinypic.com/29cweao.jpg

Barra 16-11-2013 16:47

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
As I understand it its not a big change for non EU boats that winter in greece ie right now I will pay around 800 euros for my 12.7m boat when i leave on surrender of my transit log. Under this new tax i would pay 500 euro (assuming its 400 euro plus 100 per meter over that - i hope thats right) for 12 months. Its a rub.

Havn't been to Turkey yet (thats next year) but from all reports its beautiful but getting more expensive for marinas and haul outs at an exponential rate. We chose Greece this winter for haul out as even with the taxes it was still around 2000 euro cheaper than quotes we received from Turkey! Many we spoke to did the same.

Seems like the boats that would be hit by this tax are EU boats and non EU boats staying less than 3 months. Pretty dumb I agree but a countrys costs include much more than just the taxes (marinas, food etc) and all up greece will still be the cheapest place we have cruised in the med yet.

(Croatia was the most expensive and the boats still flock there in the thousands)

goboatingnow 16-11-2013 17:35

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tellus (Post 1392086)
Yepp, but since few years our currency called Euro with all its problems.
At the beginning we had huge problems even in Germany, because of parity to $$.
For my opinion it´s a birth defect by Brussels to keep some countries in the Euro zone. Has speed up their problems.


you're right , Germany should not haven allowed in, until they accept that inflation is a reasonable monetary policy as is quantative easing, if we had they there would have been no euro crisis. The euro should not have been constructed to b a Deutschemark in disguise. recreating a "gold standard" may have suited German pensioners, but was woefully useless for the majority of Eurozone countries that needed a weaker currency.


sorry political ramblings
Dave

goboatingnow 16-11-2013 17:39

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
as per the greek tax, well see whats happens, but the effects on visiting cruisers is irelevent. they make up a tiny tiny part of the greek tourist trade. Thoses that keep their boats there, often have little choice but to pay up ( or get out of boating altogether) very few people can just jump country.

dave

Boatguy30 16-11-2013 17:56

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Gloriax- some fine reporting!

nickmilon 16-11-2013 19:30

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hoppy (Post 1391447)
Ok, maybe for boats over 12m it will be €400 plus €100 per meter over 12m :D

7m - 8m €200
8m – 10m €300
10m – 12m €400
Over 12m €100/metre

that pricing makes more sense than the jump from 400 to 1200 ;)

Been local THIS interpretation of the law looks more close to what I read in Greek media.
Also note that we are still talking about a draft law which I expect to be finalised around end of the month when 2014 budget law has to pass through the parliament.
There is strong opposition from strong lobbies as you can see here : e-Nautilia.gr: (use G translator)

athene 17-11-2013 09:33

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1392614)
as per the greek tax, well see whats happens, but the effects on visiting cruisers is irelevent. they make up a tiny tiny part of the greek tourist trade. Thoses that keep their boats there, often have little choice but to pay up ( or get out of boating altogether) very few people can just jump country.

dave

I think there are quite a few tavernas and other businesses - especially on the islands - that would disagree with you. I could list dozens of them in both the Aegean and Ionian that would probably not survive without the trade from cruisers.

Also, jumping country is a real option, which is why the association of Greek marina owners is strongly opposed to the measure, since they fear that Turkish marinas (which have advantageous tax treatment compared with Greek ones) will be the ultimate beneficiaries.

It's true that Greece has always been a cheap country to cruise (which is why so many cruisers go there), but then it's rare that you find anything in a Greek harbour other than some (often) rusty mooring rings or bollards to tie up to - and sometimes not many of them - plus a patch of mud in which to drop your anchor. Other countries which one might consider competitors for cruisers' custom frequently offer laid moorings, harbour staff to take lines, toilets, electricity and water - at a price, of course.

Rather than trying to impose a new tax, a better solution is radical reform of the management of those Greek harbours used by cruisers. Retire all the superfluous port police staff and employ a polyglot youngster for each harbour, equipped with a book of receipts and a bumbag, to help each yacht as it arrives and collect a standard charge. From my observation of Greek harbours, the revenue uplift would be massive and the impost would not be resented if it were appropriate to the facilities provided.

Pete7 17-11-2013 15:44

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by athene (Post 1392122)
But that's not the point. No sensible government imposes a swinging tax on movable assets, because it's just too easy to relocate them to a more benign tax regime. Even the rumour (as is clear from the postings here) is enough to deter a lot of cruisers from visiting or returning to Greece.

Greece is only now beginning to get back on its feet after the financial crisis of the past three years: you don't take the patient off life support just as he's starting to breathe normally again.

I wonder how much of this is about politicians directing attention away from other issues (like persuading locals to pay taxes) by showing they are taxing the rich yachties who visit Greece each year. I know yachties aren't all rich, but to the average Greek seeing the politicians taxing foreigners is going to be supported.

Pete

Barra 17-11-2013 15:44

Re: Greek Tax !!!!!!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by athene (Post 1393035)
Rather than trying to impose a new tax, a better solution is radical reform of the management of those Greek harbours used by cruisers. Retire all the superfluous port police staff and employ a polyglot youngster for each harbour, equipped with a book of receipts and a bumbag, to help each yacht as it arrives and collect a standard charge. From my observation of Greek harbours, the revenue uplift would be massive and the impost would not be resented if it were appropriate to the facilities provided.

What you are suggesting sounds alot like croatia. We enjoyed croatia but were happy to leave the rampant exploitation and hand holding of anything to do with sailing behind us and much more enjoyed the more real world harbours in greece.

If people want hand holding (charter boats) then they can always head for a marina. Luckily Greece seems to be going their own way and this will keep their ports charm I hope.


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