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-   -   Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/greek-tax-merged-4-threads-115410.html)

letsgetsailing3 27-11-2013 08:43

Re: Greek Waters Tax
 
Use the search function, as there are already two threads dedicated to this.

letsgetsailing3 27-11-2013 09:32

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
The threads are now merged. Even better!

Alenka 27-11-2013 12:56

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beneteau-500 (Post 1401191)
well Firstly i agree you wont see any benefits not for 10 yrs at least but you will see some and like right now in naxos port works are being carried out through taxes raised this yr for once Alenka ( see Naxos island Greece | Webcams | Information about Naxos > Cyclades Islands web cams )I am 54 and retired i dont get a pension not for another 12 yrs but i planned ahead and ok i set up contingency funds for things like this happening or for other unforeseen costs. as for liveaboards i would doubt it counts for more than 1% of the total number of boats in greece and the figure would be more likely to be .01% and in a very very very small way we boaters from other parts of the world are to blame for some of this tax evasion in a very very tiny way when we have had work done on our boats and paid cash to the greek man for doing it

My personnel view is whilst i love the greek islands and the people of the Islands yes they are at fault for the mess but i think now that this has happened in 7 to 10 yrs i think greece will be even a better place to come and sail

Sorry, but in 7 to 10 years time, if this is not managed correctly, many of the family businesses that rely on yachties won't be in existence and villages will be abandoned and deserted. It has happened in the past.

Greece is cheap because it spends little on the yachting infrastructure so can hardly charge the prices of Croatia.

About four decades ago the UK government of the time decided that (what it deemed) the rich should pay for their toys and imposed a higher level of tax (VAT) on luxury goods. Boats fell into this category. The result - if you bought a spark plug for the outboard from a chandlers it had double the tax of the same thing bought from a motorist shop.

Guess what happened!

Boat owners are being targeted because we are deemed to be rich and for no other reason. I love the Greeks and sympathise with their problems. But driving customers, who bring much needed revenue into their country, away and failing to tackle their internal tax problems is not a solution to their current economic ills.

I will spend around 6,000 next year running my boat in Greece. I have never been offered a cheaper rate for cash and don't go looking for one.

Alenka 27-11-2013 13:13

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
In my last post I had a bit of a rant about VAT which reminded me.

At the start of the year I tried to buy a boat in Greece that had never had the VAT paid.
This amounted to about €25,000…

The Greek port police do not believe it is their job to collect VAT on a British registered yacht, albeit that every other EU country accepts that tax is payable in the first port of call.

I contacted a Greek lawyer and asked how this could be resolved - She knew of no mechanism for paying VAT in Greece in such instances either.

I wrote to the commercial department of the Greek Embassy in London and asked if I could pay the tax through them? I was happy to pay. All I wanted was documentation to say VAT had been paid!

That was in February. I am still awaiting a reply!!!

I didn't buy the yacht and the boat was ultimately sold in Italy where they were only too willing to accept the tax.

goboatingnow 27-11-2013 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alenka (Post 1401522)
In my last post I had a bit of a rant about VAT which reminded me.

At the start of the year I tried to buy a boat in Greece that had never had the VAT paid.
This amounted to about €25,000…

The Greek port police do not believe it is their job to collect VAT on a British registered yacht, albeit that every other EU country accepts that tax is payable in the first port of call.

I contacted a Greek lawyer and asked how this could be resolved - She knew of no mechanism for paying VAT in Greece in such instances either.

I wrote to the commercial department of the Greek Embassy in London and asked if I could pay the tax through them? I was happy to pay. All I wanted was documentation to say VAT had been paid!

That was in February. I am still awaiting a reply!!!

I didn't buy the yacht and the boat was ultimately sold in Italy where they were only too willing to accept the tax.

On " new means of transport " VAT is due in the country of " destination", Not the first country port of call. The boats destination. is defined as where the boat is habitually kept. The flag per say has little to do with it.

Hence a British boat normally kept in the UK , and was VAT unpaid , then VAT is due only in the UK. Since VAT is collected on a national basis. UK VAT can not be paid elsewhere or collected elsewhere.

Note that there is no specific documentation that's says vat has been paid , merely a receipt that you remitted money to a vat authority.

If vat was due say in the UK , then paying it elsewhere does NOT actually remove the liability in the UK. Vat can only be paid to the vat agencies in a relevant country. You cannot pay one countries vat liability in another country.

Dave

Alenka 28-11-2013 01:44

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
That might be on a brand new boat out of the factory but on a used boat I think you are wrong on this one. I spoke to some very respected marine lawyers, as recommended by the legal department of the RYA, and they all work on the principle that VAT is charged at the first port of entry into the EU.

The amount of VAT payable is also on their valuation and not the sellers invoice. If you turn up with a receipt that says you paid only 10k for a one year old 50 footer you are not going to get away with paying just a small tax bill.

But this is going off topic and would be best taken further, if anyone wants to, on a separate thread

beneteau-500 28-11-2013 02:24

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Alenka i have been through the same as you and this can be done in greece one you need to go to customs hse ( and you will get bounced around from one section to another getting papers stamped ) in the port of Piraeus its a lot of hassle and then you go to tax office located 1/4 mile past metro stn in pireaus pay tax then you have to go to the courts nr customs hse pay 70 euros to have papers stamped vat paid etc but if you used a greek broker he should of done this for you

chuckr 28-11-2013 03:18

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
We are an American boat - 40' or 12.192meters - we had planned to go to the Greek island next year and possilby winter over there - we had planned to go to the Greek embassey in Tunis (we are in Tunisia now for the winter) and see what we could do to winter over there - if not there then Turkey and visit the Greek islands as we went across - then revisit the islands the next year -

However - with the new fees and being over 12m - we will not winter over there nor cruise there 2 times - maybe once - we will spend our time this year in italy,croatia, and albania - then back to tunisia for the winter - the following year we will go to Greece and then on to Turkey - on our departure we will avoid Greece -

costly cruising permits are not new to us - Bahamas is $250 usa for 6 months - so we understand - but still do not like

goboatingnow 28-11-2013 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alenka (Post 1401960)
That might be on a brand new boat out of the factory but on a used boat I think you are wrong on this one. I spoke to some very respected marine lawyers, as recommended by the legal department of the RYA, and they all work on the principle that VAT is charged at the first port of entry into the EU.

The amount of VAT payable is also on their valuation and not the sellers invoice. If you turn up with a receipt that says you paid only 10k for a one year old 50 footer you are not going to get away with paying just a small tax bill.

But this is going off topic and would be best taken further, if anyone wants to, on a separate thread


In the case of a 2nd hand boat , whatever country the boat was first imported into , or wherever the boat was originally imported into , the vat remains payable. So a boat residing in Greece would either be subject to Greek vat or UK vat depending on the status of its owner. VAT has no regard of its flag state.

Ie if imported into Greece , and owned buy a Greek tax resident , irrespective of flag , then vat due in Greece. Expat owner living in UK. Vat due in UK ( as the owner had to be UK vat registered) if the owner was non EU, then VAT is normally paid in the country the sale takes place. ( for 2nd hand boats).

The key thing is the tax status of the owner and where the original vat liability was incurred ( if at all )


Dave

Boatguy30 28-11-2013 05:35

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckr (Post 1401991)
We are an American boat - 40' or 12.192meters - we had planned to go to the Greek island next year and possilby winter over there - we had planned to go to the Greek embassey in Tunis (we are in Tunisia now for the winter) and see what we could do to winter over there - if not there then Turkey and visit the Greek islands as we went across - then revisit the islands the next year -

However - with the new fees and being over 12m - we will not winter over there nor cruise there 2 times - maybe once - we will spend our time this year in italy,croatia, and albania - then back to tunisia for the winter - the following year we will go to Greece and then on to Turkey - on our departure we will avoid Greece -

costly cruising permits are not new to us - Bahamas is $250 usa for 6 months - so we understand - but still do not like

Should be relatively easy to get your paperwork changed slightly to show your length as 39'8" or whatever.

I have my catamaran legally registered as a "pontoon" boat in the state of Michigan. The state rules indicate you are to measure the deck length between the hulls, not the hull length. So my papers show 25'8" for a 34' cat.

Fingers crossed for the $150 fee in the Bahamas

chuckr 28-11-2013 08:34

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
boatguy30 -- you have got to be kidding -- we are a uscg documented vessel - we tried to change our gross tonnage and net tonnage and no way as it comes from the mfg --
all the paperwork say 40' and the hull says 40'
it is what it is

Richard_W 28-11-2013 09:24

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boatguy30 (Post 1402030)
Should be relatively easy to get your paperwork changed slightly to show your length as 39'8" or whatever.

Is this what you do in the boat selling business? Sorry, could not resist as this does not sounds respectable ... hope not to cross your path while doing business ... ;)

Alenka 28-11-2013 11:37

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1401993)
In the case of a 2nd hand boat , whatever country the boat was first imported into , or wherever the boat was originally imported into , the vat remains payable. So a boat residing in Greece would either be subject to Greek vat or UK vat depending on the status of its owner. VAT has no regard of its flag state.

Ie if imported into Greece , and owned buy a Greek tax resident , irrespective of flag , then vat due in Greece. Expat owner living in UK. Vat due in UK ( as the owner had to be UK vat registered) if the owner was non EU, then VAT is normally paid in the country the sale takes place. ( for 2nd hand boats).

The key thing is the tax status of the owner and where the original vat liability was incurred ( if at all )

Forgive me but I will defer to the advice given by the RYA legal department and the specialised marine lawyers they referred me to.

This thread is not the place for detailed VAT discussion

Aikiguy 28-11-2013 15:21

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alenka (Post 1402315)
Forgive me but I will defer to the advice given by the RYA legal department and the specialised marine lawyers they referred me to.

This thread is not the place for detailed VAT discussion

This is exactly the place for a detailed VAT discussion, a place to find out what people have to pay.

We were thinking of cruising Europe on our 46 foot boat, but after reading these forums I think it is completely off the table. The cruising permit / yearly tax in Greece is what we budget for 2 months of total living expenses.

I would love to know what will happen if I bring my 46 foot US manufactured boat into the EU? Do I have to pay taxes upon getting there, is there a time that I have to be out of the country by? Information on all of this is flimsy at best. So far this forum is the only information I have been able to get of real people with real keels in the water.


If you don't want to talk about your experience in the forum, then that is fine, but your statement seemed to equal walking into your favorite pub and yelling "Everyone shut the hell up, no talking about anything I don't like!".

Guy
:-)

athene 28-11-2013 15:42

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aikiguy (Post 1402478)
This is exactly the place for a detailed VAT discussion, a place to find out what people have to pay.

We were thinking of cruising Europe on our 46 foot boat, but after reading these forums I think it is completely off the table. The cruising permit / yearly tax in Greece is what we budget for 2 months of total living expenses.

I would love to know what will happen if I bring my 46 foot US manufactured boat into the EU? Do I have to pay taxes upon getting there, is there a time that I have to be out of the country by? Information on all of this is flimsy at best. So far this forum is the only information I have been able to get of real people with real keels in the water.


If you don't want to talk about your experience in the forum, then that is fine, but your statement seemed to equal walking into your favorite pub and yelling "Everyone shut the hell up, no talking about anything I don't like!".

Guy
:-)

Hey, don't be so bloody rude. All Alenka was trying to do was keep the thread on subject, which is about the new Greek cruising tax, If you want to continue discussing potential VAT obligation, then start a separate thread.


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