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-   -   Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/greek-tax-merged-4-threads-115410.html)

reefhunter 05-02-2014 07:43

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NornaBiron (Post 1454026)
If you're referring to Greece, it is not bankrupt.

Nope - the USofA:banghead:

MacG 07-02-2014 10:35

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Greek is as bankrupt as a country can be. They require systematically the aid of the ECB and it never stops till they are removed from the Union. Again they require another 15 billion to survive for a couple of months. However this is pure politics and off the road of this forum.

yeloya 07-02-2014 13:04

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
I think we should alll stop discussing the macroeconomics and financial situation in Greece, this is not the point. Whether Greece is still worth visiting or whether this would help Greece to get out of trouble or not is also not the point.
The point is whether this new regulation will be applied or not and if yes how ?

Cheers

Yeloya

Onje of my friend has visited Rhodes last week end and was not asked to pay anything like this.
Let's just wait and see ..:)

Cheers

Yeloya

NornaBiron 07-02-2014 14:46

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
[QUOTE=yeloya;1461948

One of my friend has visited Rhodes last week end and was not asked to pay anything like this.a[/QUOTE]

The tax cannot be collected until the TAXIS system is up and running, the earliest this is expected is the end of February. I'm hoping that GMT (Greek Maybe Time) is as accurate as ever!

jckb 08-02-2014 02:43

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yeloya (Post 1461948)
The point is whether this new regulation will be applied or not and if yes how?
Yeloya

Let's just wait and see ..:)

Agree.

The Cruising Association (CA) is exchanging regular emails with the Ministry of Marine in Greece, and is keeping www.cruising.org.uk/news/greektax up to date as we receive replies to our questions. At the end of January, the ministry confirmed that information on the page was accurate.

The questions we have asked the Ministry can be seen at https://www.cruising.org.uk/system/files/Greek%20Tax%20email%20to%20Ministry-C.docx .

We have had replies to all those questions. The first 6 are largely answered and accepted, though Corinth Canal passage rules are not yet clear.

We're negotiating about the step change at 12m and it's effect on short term visitors in boats of 12m or less. However, the Ministry of Finance is boss, and strongly resist changes which they believe may reduce total tax take.

Our main aim is to ensure point 8 is achieved; a complete change to Port Police regulations.

JimB, for the CA

Alenka 08-02-2014 04:25

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Hi Jim,

You say the first six point in your letter are, in the main, answered and accepted. The real BIG question you raise, Point 7, seems to have been ignored by the Ministry.

7 Monthly payments
.
We understand that a boat over 12m which visits from another country may choose to pay for only one month at a time, with no commitment to pay for any other months.


My understanding from the information I have receievd, through the dry land Marina I use, is that we are not expected to pay for the time the boat is ashore.

With regards to your comment on port Taxes…

8 Current Port Police Fees.

Very few visitors bother to pay the current port police fees (fewer than 2% in the Ionian). This is because the collection system is deeply un-popular, and therefore avoided. Visitors prefer to spend €20 in tavernas, rather than spending an hour finding a port police office, then standing in queues, and sometimes paying a taxi, all in order to pay €8 in one office, then €0.88 in a tax office, which is often closed. Greece is the only EU country which puts leisure sailors to this daily inconvenience. Recommendation: The large majority of our correspondents tell us that if the monthly/yearly tax replaced the current port police reporting routines, they would accept the new tax as a great improvement in the total Greek cruising experiences. This should also release Port Police and give them more time to monitor collection of the new tax.


You have hit the nail on the head. I have also given up looking for the Port police which are often hidden away, sometimes closed when you do find them, or even brushed aside by an officer who has something else to sort out.

As others have stated previoulsy if the new tax deters those that use Greek quaysides (and this includes some locals) as a dumping ground for boats that are rarely used this is a bit of a win win situation. It means there is more room for genuine cruisers to dock and spend their money ashore.

jckb 08-02-2014 05:11

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alenka (Post 1462493)
My understanding from the information I have receievd, through the dry land Marina I use, is that we are not expected to pay for the time the boat is ashore.

You're not exactly correct! I say that, because there's no rebate for time ashore (or in another country) once you've paid. However, boats "out of use" will not have to produce proof of payment. The Ministry agrees that "boats out of use" includes all boats ashore. We're negotiating for this also to include boats which remain afloat which hand in their boat's papers, thus putting themselves in bond. They may require such boats to be in designated places (licensed marinas, whatever). This is to prevent a way out for:
Quote:

As others have stated previously if the new tax deters those that use Greek quaysides (and this includes some locals) as a dumping ground for boats that are rarely used this is a bit of a win win situation. It means there is more room for genuine cruisers to dock and spend their money ashore.
And especially more room for the charter companies, who often help finance quays and pontoons, only to find them filled next year with what I'd define as house boats
Quote:

8 Current Port Police Fees.

Very few visitors bother to pay the current port police fees (fewer than 2% in the Ionian). This is because the collection system is deeply un-popular, and therefore avoided. Visitors prefer to spend €20 in tavernas, rather than spending an hour finding a port police office, then standing in queues, and sometimes paying a taxi, all in order to pay €8 in one office, then €0.88 in a tax office, which is often closed. Greece is the only EU country which puts leisure sailors to this daily inconvenience. Recommendation: The large majority of our correspondents tell us that if the monthly/yearly tax replaced the current port police reporting routines, they would accept the new tax as a great improvement in the total Greek cruising experiences. This should also release Port Police and give them more time to monitor collection of the new tax.

This proposal has been taken seriously by the Ministry. We don't yet know how far this will lead.

It's interesting to note that boats around 12m LOA, under the past regime, should have been paying €8 a day to anchor or moor or go alongside in Greek waters. For a 120 day season, that's €960.

So all the noisy complaints, by one interpretation, are because Greece has found a more efficient means of collecting a tax that has always been due.

Here's hoping this is a point of view shared by the ministry!

jckb 21-02-2014 08:44

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
CA site updated to reflect answers received from the Greek Ministry of Maritime Affairs and Aegean.

New Greek Cruising Tax | CA

JimB

hoppy 21-02-2014 08:59

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Sounds like my bill will be €854 unless I decide to leave. I want my yacht available more than 7 months per year.

MacG 21-02-2014 09:20

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Going back to the 15th century - the difference is that the governments are the pirates now.

That I have to pay for inland waters with the high rate of mainatinance of locks etc. is quite understandable.

That you have to pay for using 'Mare Librum' with no added values is pure piracy.

It is a stupid measurement, made by a desperate government. It will cost them, because it is no real tax but more a punishment for entering Greek waters.

athene 21-02-2014 09:42

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jckb (Post 1473517)
CA site updated to reflect answers received from the Greek Ministry of Maritime Affairs and Aegean.

New Greek Cruising Tax | CA

JimB

Jim, thanks for all the hard work you and the CA have been doing to help the Greek ministry knock this new cruising tax into sensible shape. It will probably, as Alenka opines, eventually have a beneficial result in ending the charade of port police reporting and payment and clearing many of the smaller quays and harbours of the long-term freeloaders.

Not everyone will be happy, of course, especially the numerous unofficial 'gardiennage' freelances who look after the freeloaders' yachts for cash. Maybe even some of the outlying port police offices, where pouncing on visiting yachts is the only distraction from the bi-weekly ferries, may feel a little threatened.

My only hope - but probably a futile one - is that some of the revenues raised find their way back to the quays and harbours for much-needed improvements, rather than every cent going to plug the Greek fiscal black hole.

Palarran 21-02-2014 11:12

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Jim,
Do you know if this tax is in addition to the current transit log tax of 15 euro/meter/3months?

Also, I cut this from your site:
If the boat spends more than 11 months a year in Greek territory, (afloat or ashore) it pays 30% less than the full rate. That is the same as paying for 7 separate months (€868 for 12.4m) but more convenient and flexible. This may be a suitable option for full time live-aboards

Does this mean that I can go to Turkey for two weeks and still be considered permanent to Greece and get the 30% reduction? Normally I would have to surrender my Transit Log upon leaving Greece and then re-apply for one on re-entry. How will this work now?

My boat is normally on the hard for 9 months per year, how will this be handled? If the tax isn't charged when on the hard, maybe it would be best to pay by the month?

Thanks for your work.
David.

Barra 21-02-2014 17:14

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
"This tax applies to non-EU boats, and the intention is to abolish the tax presently paid after 3 months"

Im not sure what this means Jim - can you elaborate at all? ie is this saying for the first 3 months of this year transit log taxes remain in place so non eu boats get to pay this and then the cruising tax as well to start the year? (transit log tax doesnt care that im on the hard)

thanks for all the hard work!

goboatingnow 22-02-2014 04:07

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
I wonder will this tax get challenged by Brussels as it inhibits the free movement of EU goods already in free circulation.

Spain got a belt of the crozier as did Ireland ( in relation to its 30-40% tax on cars )

Remains to be seen

Dave

David_Old_Jersey 22-02-2014 04:14

Re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1474174)
I wonder will this tax get challenged by Brussels as it inhibits the free movement of EU goods already in free circulation.

Spain got a belt of the crozier as did Ireland ( in relation to its 30-40% tax on cars )

Remains to be seen

Dave

My broad understanding is the an EU country can only apply rules onto other EU citizens if they also apply to own citizens.

For the non-EU folks can do WTF yer like to them :D.

I originally read this as not so much about collecting this new tax, but a way of documenting what boats (and who owned by) are endlessly cruising in Greece so that the tax authorities can have a long hard look at the ownership to discover those boats actually owned by greek residents (both greek citizens and foreigners who have stayed so long they should be tax residents).........time will tell I guess.


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