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-   -   Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS (https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f17/greek-tax-merged-4-threads-115410.html)

athene 03-12-2013 03:12

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alenka (Post 1405680)
I believe you will only pay around €120 per month for the time you are 'afloat' in Greek Waters. So if you stay 3 months that would be €360. What no one as asked is this per calendar month or every 28 days?

I have a greater concern. No-one has been able to reassure me entirely that this tax will not be levied on boats laid up on the hard in Greece - the Article is somewhat ambiguous about this. I'd still like to see a good Greek-English translation of what 'sailing, moored or anchored' implies or at least an official reassurance from the Greek authorities on this point.

I'm reconciled to having to pay up for a month, since it will take us several days to get out of Greece when we return in May, but I don't want to find I'm stung for charges backdated to 1 January.

I've learned in 35 years of cruising to assume that where there is doubt or ambiguity it's resolved in favour of the tax authorities and not the cruising yachtsman!

beneteau-500 03-12-2013 03:23

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
as far as i know and talking to the port police on sunday and the local councilor for the port authority you will be liable whilst boat is in greece ie be it on the water in a marina or on the hard for all eu registered boats who have a dekpa but what they couldn't tell me was for Non eu boats as i said when owners are not here and boat is the boat goes into bond do they still have to pay cruising tax and they where slightly unsure of this but was told they have received instructions once the cruising tax is started that they are to start checking all boats i did mention that whilst eu flag boats only have have to check in with there DEKPA every 30 days are they going to try and change this rule answer was UMMMMMMMMMMM

Alenka 03-12-2013 04:52

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beneteau-500 (Post 1405693)
as far as i know and talking to the port police on sunday and the local councilor for the port authority you will be liable whilst boat is in greece ie be it on the water in a marina or on the hard for all eu registered boats who have a dekpa

Firstly, thanks for taking the time and trouble to make these inquiries.

If the intrpretation of the wording…

"levied on small leisure craft over 7m LOA which sail, moor or anchor in Greek waters"

also includes boats that 'stand on the hard' then indeed it will hit many boats - perhaps even those non EU boats in Bond. It also make the jump from 12m to 12+m very, very unfair!

goboatingnow 03-12-2013 05:08

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
I think a lot of details will need to worked out. I wonder will they agree to provide relief for short term visitors i.e. , within 90 days. This would seem equitable, since the tax is primarily aimed at annual stayers , i.e. long term or residents.

Dave

athene 03-12-2013 05:36

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beneteau-500 (Post 1405693)
as far as i know and talking to the port police on sunday and the local councilor for the port authority you will be liable whilst boat is in greece ie be it on the water in a marina or on the hard for all eu registered boats

Wow - that's going to be a hell of a shock for the thousands of skippers who will (like me) be heading out to the yards in Preveza and other locations in Greece next April/May and suddenly find they're liable for five months back payment!

Surely there's going to be some recognition of their plight, because I fear there could be a spate of mini-riots in Greek port police offices if not ...

AndytheSailor 03-12-2013 05:48

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
It must be considered that a large number of boatyards and marinas, some already facing financial problems, will be filing for bankruptcy. Add on all the Tavernas and I can see a few of the riots in Athens being transposed to the coastal tourist areas. This is going to affect a lot of people, not just us cruisers.

goboatingnow 03-12-2013 05:59

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

I can see a few of the riots in Athens being transposed to the coastal tourist areas. This is going to affect a lot of people, not just us cruisers.
Aww, please , you are you kidding.


dave

goboatingnow 03-12-2013 06:00

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Wow - that's going to be a hell of a shock for the thousands of skippers who will (like me) be heading out to the yards in Preveza and other locations in Greece next April/May and suddenly find they're liable for five months back payment!
you're not liable for back payment, your meant to pay it from the date of introduction, if under 12m then its an annual payment , if over 12m its and annual or monthly payment.

remember its an annual tax. you are liable for 12 months , and from what I heard, its applies to all resident boats.

dave

goboatingnow 03-12-2013 06:08

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alenka (Post 1405680)
I think you are also reading this incorrectly (I hope!).

I believe you will only pay around €120 per month for the time you are 'afloat' in Greek Waters. So if you stay 3 months that would be €360. What no one as asked is this per calendar month or every 28 days?

Makes a big difference. I had planned on relaunching my boat last week in May - but not if I have to pay €135 for just a couple of days. If visitors arrive mid month and leave the following mid month do they pay for 4 weeks or two months???


I think many people are interpreting this incorrectly. This is an annual tax, paid or due of the 1 Jan , ( and presumably part thereof if you arrive later).

Using the Crusiing Associations Undertstanding

1. Its an annual tax,

2. There is no rebate on leaving Greek waters or for time outside greek waters.

3. under 12m metres, you pay the tax in one go, not per month for the year.

4. Over 12m you can pay annually the full sum or pay by month the annual fee , less a 30% discount , works out around €10/metre per month. Note this is an annual fee, not a month to month fee.

5. Whats not clear is how it affects visiting boats. My understanding was from a greek friend , that the tax only applied after 90 days, but I see nothing about that in the tax law. I know there is ongoing representation about this and other issues. I presume the authorities are concerned if they gave a concession it could lead to all greek boats moving out of greece.

dave

athene 03-12-2013 06:33

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1405778)
you're not liable for back payment, your meant to pay it from the date of introduction, if under 12m then its an annual payment , if over 12m its and annual or monthly payment.

remember its an annual tax. you are liable for 12 months , and from what I heard, its applies to all resident boats.

dave

I don't know whether you're simply expressing an opinion or stating facts, but as I understand it the new tax applies from 1 January. If boats on the hard are liable, that implies that all skippers will have to pay up on arrival in the Spring for the months since 1 January.

Obviously, since we have decided to vote with our keel and leave Greece, it makes a big difference whether we have to pay €130 for just one month to enable us to get clear into Albania or €650 for the period from 1 January.

goboatingnow 03-12-2013 07:13

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by athene (Post 1405803)
I don't know whether you're simply expressing an opinion or stating facts, but as I understand it the new tax applies from 1 January. If boats on the hard are liable, that implies that all skippers will have to pay up on arrival in the Spring for the months since 1 January.

Obviously, since we have decided to vote with our keel and leave Greece, it makes a big difference whether we have to pay €130 for just one month to enable us to get clear into Albania or €650 for the period from 1 January.

My opinion is based on feedback from a friend that lives and sails in Greece full time.

My understanding is this is an annual tax. That is there is a reference in the original text to boats "resident" in greece. which is why there seems to be some confusion as to whether it will apply to short term visiting cruisers.

Its an annual tax, payable in jan of each year. It is not payable in arrears its payable in advance. If you are under 12m you pay the FULL amount irrespective of the time you are in greece for. this then covers you for a full year in and out of greece,

at or over 12m, you either pay 100 euros per metre per annum or €10 euros per metre per month , i.e. for 12m , this is €120 per month. There is a 30% reduction for boats permanently resident in greece , but as I said none seems to understand what "resident in greece" means, its could be for boats with a greek flag .

hence AFAIK, its an annual tax, so without any concession, if you sail in you either pay the annual tax in one go, or you pay on the drip, for the whole amount even if you then leave before 12 months.


hence its not , 120 euros for a month in greece. IN a way its exactly like a house property tax paid on the drip.

WHat my friend said , is that there is ongoing debate over two things

(a) whats the definition of resident and
(b) is there a concession for short term visitors

none of this seems to be decided yet , but there is a lot of lobbying going on , before the exact details are decided.

In some texts Ive seen a reference to it excluding boats on the hard, and in others includes all boats. SO if your boat is overwintering in a marina, the tax is not paid , when you decide to visit in the spring, its due in Jan 14

dave

goboatingnow 03-12-2013 07:19

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Obviously, since we have decided to vote with our keel and leave Greece, it makes a big difference whether we have to pay €130 for just one month to enable us to get clear into Albania or €650 for the period from 1 January.
Just to make it clear, if you are in greece and the tax applies to you , you pay the annual tax amount , irrespective of the fraction of a year you are in greece, You do not pay per month of stay. People are confusing paying the tax by the month as opposed to the tax being applied by the month. I also understand that the monthly payment option will only really be open to greek residents as it will be paid by some form of direct debit, hence you'll need a bank account etc. ( This is to prevent you from splitting with some of it left unpaid)

remember this tax is aimed at Greek residents primarily. not boats.

Chris Robb 03-12-2013 07:29

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1405836)
My opinion is based on feedback from a friend that lives and sails in Greece full time.

My understanding is this is an annual tax. That is there is a reference in the original text to boats "resident" in greece. which is why there seems to be some confusion as to whether it will apply to short term visiting cruisers.

Its an annual tax, payable in jan of each year. It is not payable in arrears its payable in advance. If you are under 12m you pay the FULL amount irrespective of the time you are in greece for. this then covers you for a full year in and out of greece,

at or over 12m, you either pay 100 euros per metre per annum or €10 euros per metre per month , i.e. for 12m , this is €120 per month. There is a 30% reduction for boats permanently resident in greece , but as I said none seems to understand what "resident in greece" means, its could be for boats with a greek flag .

hence AFAIK, its an annual tax, so without any concession, if you sail in you either pay the annual tax in one go, or you pay on the drip, for the whole amount even if you then leave before 12 months.


hence its not , 120 euros for a month in greece. IN a way its exactly like a house property tax paid on the drip.

WHat my friend said , is that there is ongoing debate over two things

(a) whats the definition of resident and
(b) is there a concession for short term visitors

none of this seems to be decided yet , but there is a lot of lobbying going on , before the exact details are decided.

In some texts Ive seen a reference to it excluding boats on the hard, and in others includes all boats. SO if your boat is overwintering in a marina, the tax is not paid , when you decide to visit in the spring, its due in Jan 14

dave

And I suppose, having been in the water all winter, by the time we get out there in Mid May, they will have given us a penalty notice as well for not having a valid receipt! Let alone, not allowing me to have a 30% discount for the year! Time to knock 0.2 of a meter off the length.

athene 03-12-2013 07:35

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow (Post 1405841)
Just to make it clear, if you are in greece and the tax applies to you , you pay the annual tax amount , irrespective of the fraction of a year you are in greece, You do not pay per month of stay. People are confusing paying the tax by the month as opposed to the tax being applied by the month. I also understand that the monthly payment option will only really be open to greek residents as it will be paid by some form of direct debit, hence you'll need a bank account etc. ( This is to prevent you from splitting with some of it left unpaid)

remember this tax is aimed at Greek residents primarily. not boats.

I'm afraid you're confusing me the more you post. The Cruising Association website states that 'The fee is payable from 1st January, 2014. It will cover one calender (sic) year's stay, with an option to pay for monthly periods for craft over 12m LOA.'.

To me it's quite clear (unless there's something lost in translation) that boats over 12.0 metres (we're 13.0 metres) can pay for monthly periods. I therefore assume I'm due to pay at best €130 for the few days in May it will take me to clear out, OR at worst €650 for the cumulative months since 1 January - which was the subject of my posting.

I cannot believe that any yacht entering Greece for just a few days on passage is liable for the full annual payment, as you seem to suggest - unless that's not what you meant?

robert sailor 03-12-2013 07:49

re: Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS
 
Should be interesting to see how this tax eventually shakes out. Being a Canadian boat and not being allowed to stay in Greece for over 3 months how can they charge you for a year? We will be passing back that way this early summer....


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