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boatman61 12-09-2013 06:16

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
I'd keep your speed down to around 5kts in the ICW... any faster and your groundings could well be a problem... don't pass to close to the marks..

estarzinger 12-09-2013 06:34

estarzinger
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boatman61 (Post 1336745)
Scoobi... take the ICW going down.. hop out at Beaufort/Morehead City and do the rest in hops.. staying out for the Georgia bit... unless its been dredged lately..
Save the outside sail for the trip back N when you've more experience of your boat and systems... and the Stream is in your favour... and you've a better idea of your limits and strengths.

This.

You and the wife can do this.

The weather can be quite changeable that time of year, so take your time and make sure you have a solidly favorable forecast when you go outside.

Get towboatus coverage.

With the mixed ICW/outside route, I would plan on 30 days if you keep pushing on, 60 days if you stop and rest. And see some sights

scoobert 12-09-2013 10:44

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey (Post 1337799)
No okeechobee for you. How have you calculated your fuel range? Headwinds can literally cut this in half. Slowing down can easily double it...


i looked up the engine specs.
1.2GPH at 2100rpm
so i can do 5-6KTS at 2100rpm.
that as close as i can get.

Paul Elliott 12-09-2013 11:29

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobert (Post 1338053)
i looked up the engine specs.
1.2GPH at 2100rpm
so i can do 5-6KTS at 2100rpm.
that as close as i can get.

But that's probably your "flat water / no headwind" speed. For planning purposes I would derate that to perhaps 1.2GPH / 4kts.

Of course if you are motorsailing the fuel consumption and speed numbers should improve over the pure motoring scenario.

In general, let me echo the suggestions that you get some offshore experience before making this trip. If you can, volunteer to crew on a multi-day delivery. Do some overnight / weekend shakedown trips, where you stay close enough to a safe harbor that you can pull the plug if you like. During the shakedown, run your watch schedule, cook meals, get some sleep -- just as if you were out there for real. You will learn a lot on a real shakedown.

scoobert 12-09-2013 11:32

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott (Post 1338073)
But that's probably your "flat water / no headwind" speed. For planning purposes I would derate that to perhaps 1.2GPH / 4kts.

Of course if you are motorsailing the fuel consumption and speed numbers should improve over the pure motoring scenario.

In general, let me echo the suggestions that you get some offshore experience before making this trip. If you can, volunteer to crew on a multi-day delivery. Do some overnight / weekend shakedown trips, where you stay close enough to a safe harbor that you can pull the plug if you like. During the shakedown, run your watch schedule, cook meals, get some sleep -- just as if you were out there for real. You will learn a lot on a real shakedown.


i would in a heartbeat do an overnighter, or any of those things.
however the wife and i will be busy until we leave for FL.

maybe if it stays in the 70's until december, then we would have time, lol.
but between work, ect just no time.

The Garbone 12-09-2013 12:00

The thing about the mixed inside and outside trip is there a so many great ports to stop in. You may find yourself hard pressed to keep to the schedule.

My wife and I found that even small ports seem more fun on foot from the boat. We have stopped at a number of places locally the we visited via car before. Almost without exception we had a better visit from the boat.

Should be a great trip.

unbusted67 12-09-2013 12:06

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Pilot Charts, Pilot Charts, Pilot Charts. Get them, study them. I am going to make this super simple. Go outside NYC either to Delaware Bay or Chesapeake, Go inside the ICW to Beaufort SC or Myrtle Beach SC depending on Weather, Then Outside to Jacksonville, FL. That should all be fine in terms of draft, just avoid Geogia and Okeechobee. South of that shouldn't be too intense weather-wise. But it will be cold weather right up until Cape Canaveral.

Can you get beat up in your boat? Absolutely. Dude look at the charts and plot your courses. You shouldn't need to ask others as skipper, as crew, yes, but you are going to be responsible for the lives of the people on board and for the people who have to come rescue you if you get into trouble. A forum is not the place to get these answers. It is your responsibility to give yourself the time to learn these things incrementally not all at once in a storm off of Cape Hatteras.

unbusted67 12-09-2013 12:40

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
And what I mean about the pilot charts is this: The ocean as a whole is not sail-able. It has certain highways on it that, depending on the time of year, allow us sailors transit. At other times of the year those highways, or sections of them are closed. You would not want to cross the Atlantic in Aug/Sept for example, try the NW passage in February, rounding Cape Horn in July, or beating against any of the trade wind belts for a long period of time. The pilot charts will help you as a skipper asses the risk of using these highways at a given time of year.

They are available for free from NOAA and viewable on open CPN which is an open source navigation software.

scoobert 12-09-2013 12:42

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
i will have to check out open cpn, i have a garmin chart-plotter now.

The Garbone 12-09-2013 12:47

Active Captain is also pretty good with information about the ICW and shoaling.

unbusted67 12-09-2013 13:02

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Sorry Pilot Chart are not provided by NOAA but rather by openCPN Pilot Charts for Chart Plotters | Official OpenCPN Homepage try that. And for God's sake man, download OpenCPN. It will change your life!

tomdidit 12-09-2013 18:02

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by unbusted67 (Post 1338107)
Pilot Charts, Pilot Charts, Pilot Charts. Get them, study them. I am going to make this super simple. Go outside NYC either to Delaware Bay or Chesapeake, Go inside the ICW to Beaufort SC or Myrtle Beach SC depending on Weather, Then Outside to Jacksonville, FL. That should all be fine in terms of draft, just avoid Geogia and Okeechobee. South of that shouldn't be too intense weather-wise. But it will be cold weather right up until Cape Canaveral.

Can you get beat up in your boat? Absolutely. Dude look at the charts and plot your courses. You shouldn't need to ask others as skipper, as crew, yes, but you are going to be responsible for the lives of the people on board and for the people who have to come rescue you if you get into trouble. A forum is not the place to get these answers. It is your responsibility to give yourself the time to learn these things incrementally not all at once in a storm off of Cape Hatteras.

Well said and advise to be heeded. In fact, let your wife read this as well!!!

unbusted67 12-09-2013 23:35

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Also my step father made this trip once in a 32 ft Tahiti Ketch, departing Penobscot Bay Nov 15th. He was towing a 12 foot dinghy behind a 32 foot ketch. He and his buddy stuffed cocaine in the boats curtain rods and left with about a half pound of weed. They ended up hugging the engine block for heat. They pooped the 12 foot dinghy numerous times and almost died pretty much the whole time.

Any time I try to warn him about how dangerous something is going to be he likes to say, "when me and George sailed to the Bahamas in November...."

....and this is why I don't like sailing with my step father.

Regrettably, he recently recreated his harrowing experience by leaving Penobscot Bay too late yet again (Oct 15) and encountered 50 knot winds off of Cape Ann, blew out his headsail (again), and almost lost his crew to mutiny. I got to spend the second half of that trip (I wasn't with him for the deadly half) freezing my ass off down the ICW. It can be cold and scary out there. Just be safe dude, that's all we are saying.

vtsailguy 13-09-2013 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by donradcliffe (Post 1335916)
You are going to learn a lot on this trip.

This ;)

Joe from ny 13-09-2013 06:06

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobert (Post 1336730)
Its not legal here. We make it legal.

Sounds like you guys need better unions over there. :thumb:

scoobert 13-09-2013 06:16

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe from ny (Post 1338658)
Sounds like you guys need better unions over there. :thumb:

yeah, there are very few truckers unions here, and even fewer lobbys.
technically, i cannot even use a hands free phone while driving.
how sad is that? and in my state, i am required to wear a seatbelt.
40,000#, rolling down the road, and i need a seatbelt, but a cabbie does not.
:banghead:
so your option is, don't do my job, or break the rules. hmmmmm....:popcorn:

fjwiley1 13-09-2013 07:50

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Scooby I have enjoyed this Thread....you have received some goo sound advice....from your first post to this post today you seem to be more receptive to some of the recommendations......you'll do ok....I see you as a risk taker, not a bad thing, but determined....not a bad thing. We all learn from mistakes, some can be costly lessons. I too have enjoyed risk taking. As I watched your "flying lessons" I reflected on mine. I had a Bi-plane, single seat that I taught myself aerobatics, my friends said I was Krazy. I was but just didn't do "stupid" mistakes...it's the same with sailing. Krazy can be fun, Stupid will get you, your wife, daughter, son and dog Killed. It's like you hauling the Hi Wide around the tight curves, plan it out, do it smartly, you succeeded. Same with your trip South. nuff said by me...

ohdrinkboy 13-09-2013 10:00

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Take what you think your abilities/capacities are and cut them in half.....that's what my dad always called "safety margin."

After you get lots of experience is the time to take more risk. Sailing is not a forgiving mode of travel to those with no safety margin.

Paul Elliott 13-09-2013 10:31

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Experience can fool you. A few years ago I attempted to sail up the coast from San Francisco to the Puget Sound. I had already made a few coastal trips up and down the California coast between San Francisco and Santa Barbara, and had sailed to Hawaii and back several times. I'd heard, and read, about the difficulties going north from San Francisco, but figured that with my strong boat, and my ocean-crossing experience, I would punch through where others had failed.

Wrong! I sailed north into 25kt winds and 10-15 ft seas (and a 1/2 kt current), and took a real bashing. We were punching our way north, but it was very slow and absolutely no fun. After a couple days I began motor-sailing, but the weather forecast was looking bleak. My choices were to pull into Eureka and wait out the gales, or turn around. Since my family was going to be flying north to meet me, and taking cover in Eureka would have completely messed up our plans, I opted to turn tail and run back to San Francisco.

We had a glorious downwind run in big seas and strong wind, and after we had tied up in the slip I bought airplane tickets for myself.

I eventually sailed to the Puget Sound, but via Hawaii. I'm still learning.

scoobert 21-09-2013 08:55

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
so. let me see if i have this worked out.

winds will blow north in November.

so what if i stop in Bermuda for a week on the way down?

i would be on a port tack, and be able to make great time to bermuda, 6 days or so, then head down to the keys from there. making transit time to the keys 12-16 days. then another 3-5 days up to tampa.

did i miss anything?

WebWench 21-09-2013 09:08

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Before you leave with what you perceive as a simple and easy plan I would suggest a two or three day shakedown cruise to make sure you and your wife and the boat are ready for the ocean.....just sayin.

scoobert 21-09-2013 09:10

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WebWench (Post 1345554)
Before you leave with what you perceive as a simple and easy plan I would suggest a two or three day shakedown cruise to make sure you and your wife and the boat are ready for the ocean.....just sayin.

we could always follow the long island outside coast, or stay close to NJ. but i know my wife will be fine with the waves, and we will have sea sick pills on board.

Sailmonkey 21-09-2013 09:28

How is your standing rigging? Will it hold the masts up in 40 knot winds with excessive pitching and rolling? A short duration shakedown should be done before this is attempted.

WebWench 21-09-2013 09:44

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Don't know exactly where you are but maybe a day or two cruising on the Long Island sound. You could make sure that all of your repairs and everything is good to go and if you had any issues there are lots of marinas to scoot into.
Make sure you have all your safety gear and if possible get a coast guard curtesy inspection. Make sure you have provisioned well because if you have rough weather it gets hard to impossible to cook. Have lots of spare parts for all your systems...especially the engine. I always feel better with more than one or two ways to navigate as we'll. things break down if the weather gets rough.
The more you can test and practice the more prepared you will be for a safe journey. Remember Murphy's law!

scoobert 21-09-2013 11:52

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey (Post 1345569)
How is your standing rigging? Will it hold the masts up in 40 knot winds with excessive pitching and rolling? A short duration shakedown should be done before this is attempted.

my standing rigging is in great shape.
thou i admit it needs tuned/tightened.
the thru deck connections are in good shape, and do not leak.
everything is over sized.

i went thru long island sound, and the only repairs i have made are mechanical, and aesthetics.
i took about 30 konts on the beam in west point, i went to 45 degrees and came back up.

Mary Flower 21-09-2013 14:28

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snore (Post 1345725)
But all the free advice on the internet isn't worth squat a o'dark :30, when you are 20-30 miles out and things go pear shaped. Whereas if you have done your own research, you may be able to predict the weather change or have a better understanding of what to do. Bill

That gets my vote for best comment on this whole thread.

"Pear shaped", indeed. Positively priceless!

Jim

scoobert 21-09-2013 14:37

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
I will soon be asking about reefing.
i now know where my reefing hook is, but i do not know how to rig the lines, or what size line i will need.
i can make a crossing, or whatever at this point.
people with no knowledge have done it, having book knowledge i can do it.
as i have said, a day sail is not practical, as we are on a river that is 2 days from the ocean.
i have my basic safety down.
running a jack line fore to aft, keeping my harness clipped in at all times above deck, changing my genoa instead of furling down.
i understand my boat 95% now, all that is left is reefing, boom vangs, spinnaker rigging, staysail rigging.

Paul Elliott 21-09-2013 14:47

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Scoobert, yes you can do it, but not yet! Learn to reef. Practice in difficult conditions. Practice in easy conditions.

How you rig and use your reefing will depend on the sail / boom design. There are several possible methods.

Yes, some woefully unprepared people complete some awfully big adventures. They call that "luck". You can never be completely prepared, but I suspect that you still have a good way to go until you can stop having to rely on luck.

scoobert 21-09-2013 14:51

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott (Post 1345769)
Scoobert, yes you can do it, but not yet! Learn to reef. Practice in difficult conditions. Practice in easy conditions.

How you rig and use your reefing will depend on the sail / boom design. There are several possible methods.

Yes, some woefully unprepared people complete some awfully big adventures. They call that "luck". You can never be completely prepared, but I suspect that you still have a good way to go until you can stop having to rely on luck.


well i was thinking that i would put in one reef, as soon as the sails are up.
i have read most of the power comes from the genoa anyway, and in an emergency i can furl that from the cockpit.

Richard5 21-09-2013 14:52

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott (Post 1345769)

Yes, some woefully unprepared people complete some awfully big adventures. They call that "luck". You can never be completely prepared, but I suspect that you still have a good way to go until you can stop having to rely on luck.

One starts with two buckets, one filled with luck and one labeled experience. The object is to fill the bucket of experience before emptying the bucket o' luck.

Knowledge is best gotten from bad experience.

scoobert 21-09-2013 14:57

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard5 (Post 1345776)

Knowledge is best gotten from bad experience.

very true, like the time i attacked Maratha's Vineyard in 8' seas in my powerboat. learned a lot that day.

hellosailor 21-09-2013 15:00

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
scoobert-
I'm of the "go and go now" school, because life gets in the way. But I have to say I wouldn't make the ride with you. I admire your enthusiasm but unless you are one of those lucky fellows who steps in a cowpie and finds a diamond in it every time...Here's a few concerns.

First off, the sea is not unkind, cruel, or merciless. It simply doesn't care. If you are 100 miles offshore, or even 20 offshore but 100 from the nearest inlet, you may be stuck there for more than 24 hours getting tossed around. Literally, tossed. Maybe you've heard that old saw about "for want of a nail, a kingdom was lost" ? Same thing on boats at sea, the little meaningless things add up and become huge compound problems.

For instance, in your blog you mention replacing six feet of crumbling hose. OK, but are you aware that the big rubber companies, ALL OF THEM, say to replace belts and hoses after 5 years no matter how gently they've been used? And that painting a hose is grounds for condemning it on the spot? Your blog shows what looks like a Westerbleak, which is painted all red at the factory, which means you can't see the condition of all the other original hoses, which should be condemned and replaced according to their makers. If any one of them fails--your engine range goes from 700nm to zero, on the spot. Considering that you think the water pump was installed wrong-way-up, do you think the PO replaced any hoses or belts on schedule? That's a nuisance, but a time bomb unless you do it now.

You mention upgrading an alternator and pulley and going to double belts. Uh-uh. Had a friend who bought and ran surplus cop cars for many years, most of them with double belts. Which are sold in matched pairs, because if the torque on both isn't identical, one takes the load and bursts and then the other can't carry you. No problem if you've got a wrecker in the motorpool, not so good at sea. Double-v belt systems are infamous for that, and that's why wide ribbed belts are used today. Double-v's are just asking for a breakdown.

Teak decks? On old boats? Have a funny way of working in a seaway, and then sprouting a myriad of new leaks all over the boat. A cold wet salty berth for a week at sea is not fun.

16 hour shifts? Well...Every "shift work" and sleep study for the past 100 years will tell you that's certainly possible. But unless you were born on Krypton, it doesn't matter how you think you are doing, the rate of errors and accidents DOUBLES when you go from an 8-hour shift to 12 hours, and keeps climbing after that. You will suffer sleep depravation and fatigue and at sea? Remember, the sea doesn't care.

Rigging? May look and feel good, but somewhere along the way, it weakens and you can't tell that by sight. If you run a cloth up and down every stay, and find just one meathook, that means the entire rig is failing internally. There's never "just" one meathook, it means the whole rig has to be condemned. Bouncing and rolling in eight foot seas--which can be expected easily offshore--is going to stress that rig more than anything in the Hudson or LI Sound. Hit some worse weather, and the strain goes up logarithmically as the wave size and wind speed do.

You also mention not knowing where your blackwater tank is. Take a fire axe along for the ride, because if you don't know every inch of the boat and you need to locate a leak, you may need to use the axe to get there.

I'm all for the trip. But I'd most strongly advise you to pick up 3 or 4 experienced crew, at least two of them capable of planning the trip and running the boat, so that you can make decisions based on experience instead of "gee that sounds nice!" and simply not knowing what <strike>may be</strike> IS waiting for you.

I knew a fellow who spent four or five years planning and fitting a 40? foot ketch to go around the world. He didn't want to do shakedowns, just said "Enough I'm going" and left LI sound one day about ten years ago in heavy rain. Less than 48 hours later the top of his mast was sticking up out of the water off Little Egg Inlet, NJ. The boat had been seen running with sails flogging the afternoon before, but the NJSP and USCG could not get out of the inlet because of wx. Not a hurricane, not a tropical storm, just a storm. His body was never found, his widow couldn't understand why she was going to be charged for wreck removal.

He never made it past New Jersey. He didn't know that "within sight of shore" was the most dangerous place to be. He didn't know the inlets can be impassible for a hundred miles.

The sea doesn't care.

If your schedule is so flexible, at least get 2 experienced crew and spend 48 hours out of sight of land, in heavy weather. Give yourself a reality check, there are too many little things that can stack up against you right now.

Richard5 21-09-2013 15:09

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobert (Post 1345760)
from the ocean.
i have my basic safety down.
running a jack line fore to aft, keeping my harness clipped in at all times above deck, changing my genoa instead of furling down.
i understand my boat 95% now, all that is left is reefing, boom vangs, spinnaker rigging, staysail rigging.

My apologies but I am going to take you to task. There is little that is basic about safety. Perhaps you spoke in a somewhat truncated from which gives at least the acknowledgement that you have concerned yourself with being safe at sea. But that is my point of contention. Being safe is not basic nor is it 'at the least' it does not merely happen or come about simply because of rigged jacklines or the onboard presence of safety equipment. Safety rightly occupies every decision you will make. Safety is paramount, it holds the predominant position, it is not a consideration somewhere along the hierarchy of decision making, it is THE pivot point by which every decision is proved right or wrong.

Every step you take, every knot you make, act like your life depends upon it...because it does! A conscious devotion to safety is the key. A safe sailor is more a thinker than a sailor. Safety, or being safe, is a state of mind. The very best safety equipment you could bring aboard is the prepared mind, then the physical ability to carry out the plan.

By reminding you of this I also remind myself. Safety requires being reminded for our nature is complacency. Complacency is as much a killer as panic or unpreparedness.

Stu Jackson 21-09-2013 15:10

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Yes, you might really want to learn to reef. And un-reef, too. And then, reef again.

You should be able to do it from the "comfort" of your cockpit. I recommend double line reefing.

scoobert 21-09-2013 15:45

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hellosailor (Post 1345790)
16 hour shifts? Well...Every "shift work" and sleep study for the past 100 years will tell you that's certainly possible. But unless you were born on Krypton, it doesn't matter how you think you are doing, the rate of errors and accidents DOUBLES when you go from an 8-hour shift to 12 hours, and keeps climbing after that. You will suffer sleep depravation and fatigue and at sea? Remember, the sea doesn't care.


there is a lot of good info in your post, but i feel a rebuttal to this is necessary.
16 on 4 off is a program for the B-2 bomber crew.
Flying is a hard job to stay awake on.
16 on 4 off has been proven to work, and work well.
if they can complete a mid-air refueling on 4 hours sleep, i can preform a watch.
i will be keeping a good eye on weather, and i plan to grab an old weather fax for this trip.

Coops 21-09-2013 15:51

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
16 hours sitting in an aeroplane, more or less flying level and straight. 16 hours on a sailboat, never still, like being in a washing machine, all muscles working, hanging onto things. Yep, I can see the similarity there.

Coops.

Richard5 21-09-2013 15:55

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobert (Post 1345823)
there is a lot of good info in your post, but i feel a rebuttal to this is necessary.
16 on 4 off is a program for the B-2 bomber crew.
Flying is a hard job to stay awake on.
16 on 4 off has been proven to work, and work well.
if they can complete a mid-air refueling on 4 hours sleep, i can preform a watch.
i will be keeping a good eye on weather, and i plan to grab an old weather fax for this trip.

B-2s are crewed. Those crews are composed of disciplined trained professionals who tightly adhere to regimented procedure. Describe your human assets.

Facing 20' faces squared off in a short sea in an opposing current separates fact from fiction.

By "squared off" I mean the faces exceed their angle of repose but still may not break due to diff in salinity or the set of current. It's a surreal phenomena but one must be prepared.

scoobert 21-09-2013 16:00

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Coops (Post 1345827)
16 hours sitting in an aeroplane, more or less flying level and straight. 16 hours on a sailboat, never still, like being in a washing machine, all muscles working, hanging onto things. Yep, I can see the similarity there.

Coops.

and what one would you be more apt to fall asleep in?
that is why we practice unusual attitudes, so when you do fall asleep, you can recover.
i will take the washing machine over the nothing of IFR flying.

Paul Elliott 21-09-2013 16:04

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Scoobert, please study the sleep schedules of professional sailboat racers, both crewed and solo. There has been a lot of serious research done on this topic. That, and my personal experience on long passages, tells me that you are just plain wrong about this.

Look, we want you to succeed. Please don't assume that we are all idiots.

Coops 21-09-2013 16:10

Re: Transit time? NY-FL
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scoobert (Post 1345842)
and what one would you be more apt to fall asleep in?
that is why we practice unusual attitudes, so when you do fall asleep, you can recover.
i will take the washing machine over the nothing of IFR flying.

Sometimes, one can only say, "ah well." Good luck.

Coops.


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