Written from a child's perspective

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It seems to me that you have not encountered cruising families in your sailing life.

Of course people are all different, and some children might theoretically (I've never met them) not want to be sailing with their parents. In such a case they shouldn't be forced to do it, of course.

I've known a lot of sailing families in my sailing life (second generation and doing it since the 70's), and cruising kids are the best, in my experience. First of all, they get to spend a ton of meaningful time with their parents -- highly correlated with being happy and well adjusted later in life. Second, they get a lot of responsibility early in life, learn a ton of different skills, learn self-reliance, experience family as self-reliant whole doing everything as a team, see a lot of the world, see and experience different cultures and societies -- all simply fantastic things for children's development. If they are home schooled -- so sailing year round -- that depends of course on the diligence of the parents, but home schooled children do better than school schooled ones, on average:

"Homeschooled children sometimes score higher on standardized tests [i.e. many studies show homeschooled children doing better on standardized tests] and their parents reported via survey that their children have equally or better developed social skills and participate more in cultural and family activities on average than public school students In addition, studies suggest that homeschoolers are generally more likely to have higher self-esteem, deeper friendships, and better relationships with adults, and are less susceptible to peer pressure." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling

Some of the most brilliant people I know were homeschooled, in particular one friend of mine who was dragged all over the world by his missionary parents with his 9 sisters and brothers, whose school-age education, provided by his parents, was basically equivalent to the U. of Chicago great books program. He went on to do extremely well in university and is having a brilliant career in his field. He's one of the best-read, most thoughtful, and altogether best-educated people I know.

I would not hesitate to take a child on an extended world cruise. In fact, taking a child for a long cruise would be probably the one reason why I would do it. I love sailing, but I love my work also, and my life on land, and a few months a year on board has always been enough for me. But to see the world through a child's eyes -- that would be fantastic, and maybe worth putting the career on hold for a year or two.

Family law attorneys deal professionally with broken down, not healthy families. I'm a lawyer myself, but I would never use that as the lens to see these questions through.

Thanks for this well worded response, Dockhead. As another long term offshore cruiser, I share your experience with the cruising kids that we have met: they have been exceptional young people, ones that have a very good chance of a successful life as adults. And this is borne out in the adult ex-cruising kids that we know, for not one of them has regretted their youthful cruising experience.

And for Sailor Sailor, your glorification of the onshore educational system and it's potential for social development is confusing, for I have never yet met or heard of a cruising kid involved in drug usage, gang membership or criminal behavior. Can you say the same about land based children who have been immersed in the society that you extol? As a music lover I appreciate the talented few who can perform at professional levels... but those performances were made possible by untold hours of study and practice, hours in which they were isolated from their peers and prevented from normal social development.

It's all in what your value system appreciates...

Jim

[PhilC]

[QUOTE=Sailor Sailor;3759767]Thanks for your post. It seems obvious to me, as a family law lawyer, that parents that take their children long distance cruising are selfish, putting their own interests about those of the children. Children are far better off on land....

As someone who can have a significant influence on what parent can and cannot do with their children I find your view deeply concerning. It appears that you cannot envisage that there are other ways of living (with children) to the way you live.

Or perhaps it's me who has a different view? I guess that's possible. After all I was exposed to a lot of different views as a child, visiting around thirty different countries before I was 12 years old. Making friends in every port without regard for race, religion or wealth. Perhaps that's just the view of the highly functioning adult, who as a child, never felt he was 'better off on land'.

[JPA Cate]

There were communications problems within the family, if we are to accept her report as truth, but, let me share a few questions I've had, in thinking about the excerpt from her book.

1) During the time when she was in strong conflict with her mother, was she still encouraged to keep up her schooling?

2) Of course it was stressful, needing the money for university, but did she complete it?

And now, a couple of comments:

1) Things change when a family is suddenly in dire straits financially, and some of those things really annoy the child. (This from my own life experience.)

2) Unless you have actually had the experience of foreign cultures' solutions to various life problems your own self, how can you reasonably evaluate how enriching it is for children to experience them while young?

3) This woman's autobiography is just beginning. She's spiced it up a bit, possibly at the behest of an editor, so it's a fictionalized account of her life. She apparently has been a successful bureaucrat...and in England, this is not a story of a North American.

We did meet one couple whose kids were happy enough in appearance, but were disciplined by a Tongan grandfather when they behaved badly at supper. Now, all he did was say, "Sit down!" and they did. However, the father in the east coast American
boat had long before showed himself to be disinterested in teaching them to modify their behavior.

Cruising internationally with your kids offers them far wider opportunities than they will ever have in a one nation, urban or suburban environment. It is up to the parents to do the schooling with them, integrate it into the daily life. There are many schooling programs for home schooling. Plus, exploring always offers opportunities to learn more than there is time for in schools which mostly teach a bare minimum.

The kids flock to one another, native kids and yachtie kids together. They play together. To me, it would be a shame to have to rely on just mob of yachtie kids interacting, way better to expose them to learning foreign languages, even if the kids don't have multiple languages as a goal, for themselves. The parents are trying to raise children to fend for themselves in a changing world.

Seems to me as if Suzanne's parents succeeded in doing that.

Ann

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And for Sailor Sailor, your glorification of the onshore educational system and it's potential for social development is confusing, for I have never yet met or heard of a cruising kid involved in drug usage, gang membership or criminal behavior. Can you say the same about land based children who have been immersed in the society that you extol? As a music lover I appreciate the talented few who can perform at professional levels... but those performances were made possible by untold hours of study and practice, hours in which they were isolated from their peers and prevented from normal social development.

We put our kids in one of the best schools in our state. We had hopped to avoid the problems we had endured going to school...

Not sure they will ever recover from what happened to them in that school. Being lied to your face by the head of the school is a sign that we took seriously, but by then, it was too late to have stopped the harm. But the head of the school went to one of the "best" universities in the country so he must be ok. Right?

We were thinking about getting a boat before our kids were born but we had no real money, no way to make any remotely back then, so we had to follow the "traditional" path. Our kids would be much, much healthier today if we could gone cruising. They would also have had a better education.

I had too many incompetent teachers in school and some of them should have been arrested. Teachers and administration knew what was happening but did nothing to stop it. Looking back as an adult, one teacher was almost certainly abusing his wife and kids at home. Oh yea, one teacher was arrested for having s.x with students. Forgot about him. My kids had teachers who were overdoing things, other teachers and the administration knew it, yet nothing was done.

Gangs and youth crime were an issue when I was in school. Riots were happening IN SCHOOL, drug use was at least common if not wide spread, and there were gangs. Not national gangs like today but localized ones who were violent. I remember one kid getting killed after school. I knew a kid in MIDDLE SCHOOL who brought a revolver to school. Nothing like today's events though. To be fair, I do remember thinking about what I would do if a terrorist attacked our school. That was happening in places around the world at that time. Not very likely to happen but I remember thinking about it.

Yeah, our kids are better of going to school vs a boat....

The education system in the US is just top notched and "professional." NOT!

By the way, I went to schools in four states and was sent to the BETTER schools, usually the best school in a county. I can't imagine what it was like in the "bad" schools. The kids I knew who were studying music did so because they were forced into it by their parents. It certainly was not something they wanted to do. Just something they had to endure.

The chances are that the book that is the topic of discussion would never have been published if not for the fact that the woman was on a sailboat. Her story is unfortunately too common, and but not very harsh, for land based children and families. Who would buy a book to hear about the single mother raising children alone, with no financial support or help of the father, whose car was totaled by a gang banger which caused her to not be able to get to work? A woman afraid to call the police and report the accident because of what might happen to her and her kids. Yeah. Being on a boat, sailing around the world, is tough in comparison.

Later,
Dan

[Wotname]

Dan, you nailed it

[noelex 77]

I have met many “cruising kids". They seem to be confident, well adjusted, and happy individuals.

The concern expressed in this article seems more related to the toxic family relationship that existed in this particular situation.

[Leighpilot]

If everyone took their kids to sea and out of reach of family lawyers ,Sailor Sailor would be out of work. It’s the parents that make the difference. I’ve seen happy well adjusted kids at sea and screwed up kids ashore. It’s the parents , not the environment.

[nfbr]

The releated use of the word “home” by an 7/8 year old who is now adult shows a “somewhere” person not an “anywhere” person.
She had a UK mindset even in NZ. Nothi g would change that.
Not a happy nomad.

[PhilipL]

She did very, very well in life and avoided the public school path that the upper classes impose upon their children.


Book not yet published but looks a good read,

[Flagfish]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

Thanks for your post. It seems obvious to me, as a family law lawyer, that parents that take their children long distance cruising are selfish, putting their own interests about those of the children. Children are far better off on land, perhaps exposed to sailing on an occasional casual basis, instead of against their wishes for extended periods of time. They can play soccer, hike in the woods, enjoy playing with a dog in the back yard, play with a variety of friends, go to birthday parties, go trick or treating in their neighborhood, and learn independence and personal responsibility apart from their parents.

If they later enjoy sailing, and want to do it themselves, great. If not, you just forced them to do something to please yourself, not for their best interests.

As one of the primary aims of this listserv is to promote sailing, and promote the interests of the advertisers and sponsors, you will not get much traction here. Plus, people who have already done this will never admit that it was not best for their children. People tend to rationalize their decisions, not matter what the reality of the matter.

Oh, I disagree completely with that perspective. Kids are non voting members of a family unit. Keep them safe, fed and involved, but parents should definitely follow their own interests. Some kids will enjoy certain things and some will enjoy others. Without exposure, how would anyone know? There are, unfortunately, always people who enjoy nothing.

[kavw]

Well, she and her brother did pretty well in life afterwards.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by kavw

Well, she and her brother did pretty well in life afterwards.

Hmmm just because someone does well later in life doesn’t mean their childhood didn’t suck

[KRK-8]

Wow, that excerpt article is ... somethin'.

My interest is piqued only because my sister and I raised ourselves as all our parental units (mom/dad then mom/stepdad & dad/stepmom) fully were engulfed in the narcissism of the "Me Decade" of the '70s. For me, it was extremely difficult to navigate on land, so I can't fathom how she emotionally & mentally navigated it at sea. That kind of isolation had to have been excruciating. On land, I utilized several resources that, no doubt, saved my life.
I commend her for the perseverance and fortitude it took to endure it all - on isolated seas - and successfully make it out to the other side.

As for sailing & cruising life, I waited until mine were grown & flown. Neither of our kids had any real interest - other than purely being weekend recreational passengers, without any care to how it all works. What works for one family doesn't always work for other families.

Whatever floats your boat, man! ⛵✌️⛵

[bullislandken]

I have not even read the original poster’s link but I decided to post a reply about our parenting experience.

We took our children, 8 and 11, at the start, for 1 1/2 years in the eastern Caribbean. I believe it opened my children’s eyes and minds to travel and other cultures. My daughter, now 32, just had a baby. My dad, the great grandfather, died of Covid last week. Going thru Dad’s things, they found my daily journal from that trip. I have never reread it.

My daughter called me yesterday to tell me she has very much enjoyed looking back at our trip 20 years ago. She said she feels so lucky to have had that experience and she hopes she can do the same for her daughter.

I do recall when we had been home about a year after we returned from the Caribbean, when I tried to encourage her to try another trip for a year, she said no way, even if she had her own cabin. I think if we had waited until either child was a teenager, our trip would have been very difficult for them and us. My daughter also has a tight relationship with her brother, almost three years younger. Part of that bond was strengthened by her spending most of her time on that trip with her little brother.

Both kids went back to public school and were straight A students. As the time went on after the trip, their grades slid to mostly B’s but they were both good students and enjoyed band, soccer, tennis, and cross country running. Both kids went to college and my daughter has a masters in architecture and my son has an electrical engineering bachelor’s degree. While my daughter has blossomed as a young commercial architect, my son is still searching for a job he would really like. One thing we observed is that he is quite a people-person and he misses interacting with people with his previous EE employment.

Our children did learn to enjoy hanging out and interacting with other adults when they were living on a 30 foot boat with their parents. My daughter would say, “it is not happy hour, but really happy HOURS.”

My children have even remarked how they felt unique living with both parents since most of their friends’ parents have divorced. I actually thought that my wife was going to leave me once we made it back to the US after visiting over 15 countries with four on a 30 foot double ender.……..that was 20 years ago!

Being from pearly white Montana, I believe we all benefitted from that trip.

[chris.burcher]

I could have written a very similar article to the one referenced by OP. Except I would substitute 'the public school system' for 'a sailing lifestyle'. In so many ways public schools and the related indoctrination 'stole my childhood'. But I choose instead to not blame anyone. Rather, I can address what happened now that I am an adult.