Passagemaking with Baby and Child Ditch Bag + General Tips?

[atoll]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

MereEnMer,


It IS more work with two little ones aboad, and an au pair could really help the situation, but it is still doable. One CF member here, is <atoll>, and iirc, he was raised aboard. Ask him to put you in touch with one of his parents.

Ann

Ann, i think you mean my 2 children who were raised onboard from birth,and circumnavigated twice.

As parents we already had many ocean passages before they were born,even so we decided it was safer for my wife to fly back to the uk for a few months with our 5 month old daughter whilst i sailed from darwin to madagasgar.

My parents however would have been happy sending 4 year old's down coal mines and considered dirt an essential growth mineral

[JPA Cate]

Wow! I'm sure glad you said that!

In fact, I'd say, after thinking more about it, that, if the lady is not breast feeding, and this is the year they want to do this....they should not go. The fact is that the corona virus cases are exponentially increasing in Gran Canaria; and imho their family would be better off sailing the British Isles. Look at another year. No one's breast milk today has the antibodies to give to the child, unless they have survived Covid 19 recently. If she's a bottle feeder, the child is way more at risk.

Ann

[LittleWing77]

Remember the maxim "Always step UP into a liferaft". (Meaning: the only case when you would abandon to the liferaft is when/if your primary boat were sinking under you.)

I also agree with the previous poster that essentially said never mind the activities for the kids. Exchange such items for water, water and more water. If you are forced to abandon to a liferaft, you will be focused only on everyone's survival.

Have you done the RYA Safety at Sea course, or your country's equivalent?

Fair winds and following seas (hopefully - if you're crossing the Atlantic in the "right" direction )

LittleWing77

*What is your location? Please update your profile for more pertinent responses.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Wow! I'm sure glad you said that!

In fact, I'd say, after thinking more about it, that, if the lady is not breast feeding, and this is the year they want to do this....they should not go. The fact is that the corona virus cases are exponentially increasing in Gran Canaria; and imho their family would be better off sailing the British Isles. Look at another year. No one's breast milk today has the antibodies to give to the child, unless they have survived Covid 19 recently. If she's a bottle feeder, the child is way more at risk.

Ann

Part of the reasoning for sending my wife and child home for the trip across the indian ocean was that earlier in the year at the end of cyclone season we had left bundaberg to sail to darwin when the child was just 5 weeks old.

my wife had spent most of that trip downstairs breast feeding,sleeping or changing nappies,she also had to cope with seasickness brought on by having to be inside a lot of the time,which would normally not be a problem after a few days without a baby to care for.

apart from obvious health complications that might arise ,sailing at the height of the trade wind season ,which can be fairly rough, there is the added danger of dropping,banging or getting thrown on the baby in rough weather.
after leaving darwin,the wind never dropped below 30 knots untill reaching chagos,so the decision to not sail with the baby was probably for the best!

given the current covid situation,with quarentines and border closures etc it would be inadvisable for people to plan any long term travel plans involving multiple countries in the immediate future with or without a baby IMHO.

[Manateeman]

The original poster has not returned with any feedback.
No Medical Doctor has posted with advice.
One item which has not been discussed is the influence of the age of these two children on anyone involved in a medical emergency.
Women and children first...place a may day call and follow with children and a simple human reaction takes place. Sometimes this is a good thing. It brings a heightened awareness of urgency. It also diminishes caution. Something tugs at the heart and no matter how well trained, rescuers are in the end, human.
They choose to put their lives at risk. Ask them to rescue children and the focus becomes narrowed, risk becomes increasingly peripheral. Helocopter pilots, rescue swimmers, pediatric physicians...ask the which cases they recall.
Merchant ships not only usually have medical communications, they practice rescue boat deployment. Some have medically trained crew. Everyone shares one thought, what if it were my child, my family. I’ve seen just how powerful these emotions can be and how easily they influence risk taking behavior.
There is parental responsibility and then there is responsibility at sea. Setting out on a voyage in an unsuitable vessel or ill prepared in some substantial way...the Coast Guard has a legal term..manifestly unsafe voyage. No amount of preparation can prevent a vessel from requiring rescue, but individual judgement must include the probability of putting others at extreme risk. It must include an assessment of survivability and unfortunately children are at much higher risk.
There is a long history in Admirality cases where captains and crew were held responsible for tragedies. The courts held them to a much higher standard because of their training...that they failed to anticipate a disaster or did not take actions quickly or properly. The courts have also applied higher standard in cases against non professionals who should have sought out professional advice based on the “nature “ of the risk.
So far, no response from a medical professional, nor from the OP. This is not a case where Ken, Barbie and their cat are asking for advice.
Happy trails to everyone.
Captain Mark and his silent manatees

[barnakiel]

Hi,



Follow google to that boat accident not too long ago on the way to the Azores. I believe that kid died of hypothermia right in the middle of the summer.


Kids get hypothermic sooner than adults, they also de-hydrate sooner. Kids are very vulnerable in rafts and they often die first, also in conditions that seem just uncomfortable to an adult.



Given that once in the raft, there is nothing you can do, make sure these are given high priority:


- do everything so that you do not end up in the raft, never ever, (your sailing skills + boat choice and prep)


- have two independent, hi-tech, ways to call SAR.


The first thing is not for this tread, the second thing is being on two different networks, with two waterproof devices that can be carried to the raft (e.g. Inmarsat phone + EPIRB).


Take care. Sail safe.



b.

[MereEnMer]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone, and apologies for the delay in getting back to you. I'll try to answer all of the questions here. I was a PICU nurse back in the States up until my first was born, so I feel pretty confident handling any medical situation that could come up. One of the boats we're planning on going with is a Belgian couple who are both retired doctors (ER doc and cardiologist, I think), so I figure I can radio to them if something comes up that I want a second opinion on, but that's definitely an extra layer of security and not something I need to feel comfortable treating my kids if communication fails. I'm not deceiving myself- it won't be the same as access to a hospital, but I'm planning on bringing along an enormous valise of medical equipment so that I can do just about anything short of surgery if we need to: an IV kit, splints, an oxygen administration kit with a pediatric cannula, prescription meds for anything from croup to ear infections to third degree burns, 8 different kinds of seasickness meds including transdermal, injectable, and suppository forms for people who aren’t able to keep pills down, you get the idea haha. We're also going to get the all-clear from their pediatricians before we head out just to be extra sure. Even a mild stomachache in the few days before our departure isn't something I'm willing to risk. I definitely wouldn't feel comfortable jetting off into the Atlantic with an 8-11 month old (depending on when we leave) or even our 8 year old if I didn't have medical expertise. We'll postpone our trip until next year if the COVID situation doesn't improve, and we'll cancel it if anyone has any kind of medical issue that could be life-threatening if they're away from a hospital (a severe allergy, for example, would be a no-go) or if anyone here loses enthusiasm. If the weather isn't perfect but everything else is, I suppose we'll head to the Med. The reason I think hubby and I are leaning toward this year rather than sometime in the next 5 years is because statistically I'd be much more worried about a young child who's capable of walking or undoing her safety harness toddling overboard than I would worry about the chances of a catastrophic illness striking the baby during the 3-4 weeks we're aboard (possible, but very unlikely) or a catastrophic event stranding us in the middle of the ocean (possible, but again fairly unlikely). The baby will only be on the deck if she's physically strapped to me in her baby bjorn or possibly in a harness with a 1 foot safety line that lets her do a bit of crawling but doesn't allow her to go anywhere near the side of the boat, and our 8 year old will be wearing a life jacket with a MOB1 unit and a spray hood at all times when she's not below (which she's already used to doing from when we were cruising) and will be in the cabin if the weather gets dicey. Our 8 year old will also likely be tethered to a short safety line that doesn't allow her to get close to the edge while underway, because all I can picture is her falling off and getting dragged. All 4 of us have type 1 PFDs that can be immediately accessed from the companionway in an emergency. We'll have zero alcohol aboard when we're on passage. We're going in a group and we're all chipping in for a service that has people that monitor the weather and tells us when the perfect window is to go. They aren't foolproof, obviously and anything can happen on the water which is why we want to be prepared. We have a very safe Hallberg-Rassy that has completed a circumnavigation and multiple Atlantic crossings with her previous owners, 2 experienced captains (my husband and our hired captain), and I think most importantly, we're in no rush. If the stars aren't perfectly aligned, we have no interest in pushing ahead. Boat refit in 2018 and it’s going to be hauled out before we leave

Just for background, we bought the boat in the States (where I'm from) and my husband (an engineer by training), 8 year old and I had been living aboard and island hopping for 4 months when COVID hit. I was heavily pregnant at that point, and so hubby, kiddo, and I hightailed it to the US to be with my mom before the borders were closed. Baby was born at the end of March, the kids and I flew back home to England, and my husband and a hired captain sailed the boat back to England in May to brush up a bit on passage-making without the risk of kids and pregnant wives aboard haha. He's done extended offshore sailing before, mostly in the Pacific and 1 Atlantic crossing as a young adult, but we agreed it would be good for him to get a feel for our boat specifically before we brought the children into it. Since the baby has been born, we've been doing some extended coastal sailing around the UK when we can. The longest we've been sailing with both kids without coming ashore has been 6 days and it definitely hasn't dampened anyone's enthusiasm, least of all our our 8 year old's, but we're planning on doing some longer dry runs within sight of shore just to make sure it's for us. This isn’t an Instagramer/Youtuber “Look at us living free on the ocean with our children” type situation- just something we’ve always talked about doing and were doing and enjoying until COVID hit. We love being out on the water and our oldest can’t seem to get enough of it, but we don’t love it or trust it enough to be reckless.

The ditch bag is fully stocked, as is the raft which was serviced in March but will be serviced again before we leave to make sure everything we need is already in there. Hubby is really the big sailor here and we're hiring a captain, but off the top of my head for communications equipment in the ditch bag, we've got at least an EPIRB, a PLB, a VHF radio, and a friend is going to lend us his sat phone for the passage. It's a SOLAS pack "A" raft, so food/water/flares etc. comes already in the raft, but we'll definitely have the contents checked before we leave. Hubby has talked about keeping the emergency watermaker we already keep onboard in the ditch bag as well just in case. We've already got suppositories for nausea and powdered oral rehydration solution in the ditch bag.

We've practiced MOB drills with our 8 year old and talked about what to do if we need to abandon ship, but we haven't done any lifeboat drills with a real lifeboat, which is a great thought.

The reason I was asking about diapers isn't because I was worried about diaper rash or baby being uncomfortable- that would be the least of our worries. It's because I knew that if we were in there for 12 hours or so (I'm going to get gross here, apologies, non-parents), it would mean the baby having poo all up and down her immersion suit, which would then get all over the inside of the raft and I'm sure the smell would be a big catalyst for nausea. On the other hand, I’m not sure I would feel comfortable taking off her immersion suit even for a minute if we were in a liferaft so maybe there is no solution. I suppose we could stick her in a seasickness bag in a pinch, but realistically it would *shudder* come out the neck opening. Tiny things like a bit of string or a china marker for our 8 year old were definitely an extra thought- no one is bringing their Hot Wheels or crayolas on the lifeboat Hubby is more of a sailor than I am (hence the captain we're hiring for the passage), and I'm much more of a pack rat and was concerned he was leaving out things, but it's nice to know that we're not.

[Manateeman]

Excellent. You sound very prudent and well prepared. I assume you have AIS and radar. You might give a shout out to merchant vessels as you go along. I’m certain most will be of help with traffic, weather and anything you require in a breakdown situation. Most are pretty good people with families and a few women captains for a good chat on those stormy nights.
Sorry if I lectured. Everyone here has hope you enjoy the voyage. No one knew how well prepared you were. So...
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his happier manatees.

[MereEnMer]

Definitely didn't mean to lecture either and I'm 100% not offended that people saw "Should we bring an extra diaper on our life raft for our baby" and their minds went straight to Rebel Heart II My husband looked at me like I was insane for trying to stuff in an extra diaper and I wanted to make sure he wasn't terribly off base. I'm pretty green and a bit of a backseat driver (sailor?) when it comes to things like this as you can probably tell haha. Just didn't want everyone who has offered advice and is now invested to be worried about some ill-prepared idiots gamely loading their baby and child onto a leaky rowboat across the Atlantic to succumb to exposure and dehydration and probably scurvy. Honestly, I think some of the things people have said have confirmed my deep-down Mom-panic that this may be too risky, so I thought I'd share all the reasons why we're not the Rebel Heart and then hear what other people's risk assessments are here.

[Lake-Effect]

My recommendations for not bringing the kids was as much selfish as risk-aversion; I don't think that the adults would have as great an experience as they could if they had to constantly mind 2 small kids. And I question whether the kids themselves would get enough out of the experience to make the extra hassle worthwhile.

But every family is different, and I'm certain there are responsible parents for whom it would be unthinkable to not do this adventure without the kids in on it.

Best wishes regardless.

[PirateFoxy]

At 8 the kiddo is probably old enough to be learning things like how to steer if there is a problem. I’d definitely try to do some work on that because sometimes an extra pair of hands IS very helpful and there are definitely things a kid could do, especially for a short time, but during an emergency is not the time to teach.

[atoll]

it is a very modern western notion to put such a high value on childrens lives anyway,up untill the invention of anti-biotics it was quite common to lose a few children in the coarse of normal life.....

a few years ago,in the tuamotos i asked one of the elders what they did about cigatuera poisoning,which can be fatal.
his comment was that they fed the young children first,as making new babies was easy,but replacing a fisherman or boat builder was a much greater loss to a small community.

young people get so much criticism for inflicting their lifestyles on their children these days,but people forget that only 100 years ago those same people were out there colonising the natives and building empires,diptheria,polio,typhoid ,cholera and harsh lifestyles killed so many young kids in the pursuit of happiness and progress.

indeed isolated on a boat is probably not a bad place to be during the next few waves of corona virus!

[fxykty]

I appreciate that the OP is planning for the worst and asking particular questions that certainly aren’t covered in any safety at sea seminars. My little contribution to that is pack a few sets of reusable diapers, lots of extra fresh water to rinse after washing them in salt water, a pack of hypoallergenic moisturising wet wipes would be useful for keeping the skin reasonably clean, and my ex swore by Bag Balm as a topical skin moisturiser for our babies.

Net the lifelines, pay attention, but I bet dollars to donuts that the 8 year old will be more agile and secure on the deck than either parent within days. Use your own judgement regarding PFDs, harnesses, tethers, etc, but please let your child play around freely as well.

I have to say that I’m astounded at all the comments saying to not bring the baby nor even the 8 year old. Seriously? What is all this wrapping kids in cotton wool and bubble wrap?
The chances of any emergency taking place while on passage is vanishingly low.

People have been sailing the seven seas with babies and young children ever since cruising became a thing in the 60s. People have been taking kids backcountry skiing, mountaineering, trekking, bike touring, etc.

Yes, the primary caregiver is going to be occupied with the baby almost all the time. This means the other parent will be effectively single handing. As long as the couple and the boat are prepared for this then no problem having a baby along. The 8 year old will be just fine.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I appreciate that the OP is planning for the worst and asking particular questions that certainly aren’t covered in any safety at sea seminars. My little contribution to that is pack a few sets of reusable diapers, lots of extra fresh water to rinse after washing them in salt water, a pack of hypoallergenic moisturising wet wipes would be useful for keeping the skin reasonably clean, and my ex swore by Bag Balm as a topical skin moisturiser for our babies.

Net the lifelines, pay attention, but I bet dollars to donuts that the 8 year old will be more agile and secure on the deck than either parent within days. Use your own judgement regarding PFDs, harnesses, tethers, etc, but please let your child play around freely as well.

I have to say that I’m astounded at all the comments saying to not bring the baby nor even the 8 year old. Seriously? What is all this wrapping kids in cotton wool and bubble wrap?
The chances of any emergency taking place while on passage is vanishingly low.

People have been sailing the seven seas with babies and young children ever since cruising became a thing in the 60s. People have been taking kids backcountry skiing, mountaineering, trekking, bike touring, etc.

Yes, the primary caregiver is going to be occupied with the baby almost all the time. This means the other parent will be effectively single handing. As long as the couple and the boat are prepared for this then no problem having a baby along. The 8 year old will be just fine.

+1
Excellent answer, fxykty!

A lot of posters (including the OP) seemingly creating monsters where there are none or few - and focusing on the liferaft - which, if you've ever been in one, is the LAST place you'd ever want to be.

"Take care of your boat and she'll take care of you."
LittleWing77

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by fxykty

I have to say that I’m astounded at all the comments saying to not bring the baby nor even the 8 year old. Seriously? What is all this wrapping kids in cotton wool and bubble wrap?
The chances of any emergency taking place while on passage is vanishingly low.

People have been sailing the seven seas with babies and young children ever since cruising became a thing in the 60s. People have been taking kids backcountry skiing, mountaineering, trekking, bike touring, etc.

Yes, the primary caregiver is going to be occupied with the baby almost all the time. This means the other parent will be effectively single handing. As long as the couple and the boat are prepared for this then no problem having a baby along. The 8 year old will be just fine.

I imagine the issue of the boats where people have had to risk their lives to do a rescue in part due to a young child having a major medical issue is a large factor. Until relatively recently if you took a child with you and something happened, you had limited options for outside help, so kids either survived or didn’t, no one else involved. Many people here don’t think much of people endangering others through planning that relies on someone else cleaning up your mess - which is what parents are doing taking young children out without being properly prepared.

As it happens, the OP is about as prepared as anyone can be for unexpected child medical issues at sea, due to being a medical professional with extensive experience with children and all the necessary equipment and medications. You’ll notice once that was communicated the tone of most replies changed significantly. Being able to give IV fluids competently alone makes a huge difference to the chances you’ll need a rescue for child medical issues, because dehydration is a major risk for children if they’re vomiting or having diarrhea and is often what lands sick kids in the hospital.