Family of 6 circumnavigaton

[leftbrainstuff]

Originally Posted by Belaurora

Hi all,

Been a lurker for quite some time. My wife and I are seriously considering doing a circumnavigation (or something similar) with our kids. We still have to get financial things in order etc. so about 2-3 years out.

I have done an extensive amount of research so I have good some ideas but need a bit more fine tuning.

Constraints:
we have 4 kids,
Daughter-8 y.o.,
Son-7,
Son-2,
Son-8 mos.

We are mid 30's right now. The thought is to be mostly financially independent by the time we go (that will happen regardless whether we become cruisers).

Mission:
See the world. While we want to sail the equatorial waters we want to explore the WORLD, so venturing into higher latitudes is something we really want to be able to do. Places like NZ, possibly Alaska, Chile/Argentina( not sure if Cape Horn is a possibility), Japan, UK, Nordic countries, Greenland. Venturing into the S. Pacific is definitely on the list. We want to cruise for 5 years at a minimum. Financial ability to go longer may be possible though.

I would like some thoughts and advice on vessels, vessel size for my largish family. I have been researching boats, equipment (diesel heaters!) etc for some time. I have also read most of the blogs by people who have kids. Lots have 1 or 2 kids, a very few have 3. I heard about one family with 5 on a 50+ foot cat, a Simpson I believe. Anyway, I don't know of anyone else with the same mission and accommodation requirements I face. I'm sure they exist I just don't know of them.

Having a girl really means she needs a private space for herself. The boys could all bunk together for some time but even that would have to change. So I need at least 2 doubles and 2 singles, with a cat that 's not an issue. With a 40-45 ft mono that seems to be harder to find.

Here is a short list of vessels I believe would work for us and the mission. Of course the big limiter is the cost. Safety is a very large concern for us due to having small children and venturing into high latitude routes. (BTW a catamaran is my first choice but I would/am considering monos too).
(in order of reference)

Fountaine Pajot Bahia 46 (We love this boat but expensive)
FP Venezia 42 Love it, should be a good size top of price range, can't refit
FP Belize 43 should be a good size top of price range, can't refit
FP Lavezzi 40 Love it, can afford, but may be too small
FP Athena 38 too small? Priced right
Nautitech 435 or 40 maybe could afford 40, but top of price range, can't refit


Amel Super Maramu 53' 200K is probably be too expensive. Love it though.
Amel Maramu or Mango.. Maybe too old? could afford but refit cost...
Hallberg Rassy 46 WAY too expensive and I don't believe the 39 would work for us.

From what I understand the Amel and HR are some great boats. Yes I'm one of the folks who loves the Amel. The Super Maramu seems like it would work very well for us, but they are really outside my comfort zone.

Totally can afford boat + refits:
Beneteau Oceanis 50
Beneteau First 47.7
Bavaria 49

I guess I keep coming up against a cost wall that would prevent me from untying the lines in the time frame we want. Our budget just won't allow for a 250K boat + refit costs. We really need to be about $150-175k with refit costs. Top end 200k with refits but that greatly reduces financial ability.
So only the 38-40' cats (Athena, Lavezzi) or a 44-50' monos are really hitting the sweet spot for my price range.

Benteaus, Bavarias, & Jeanneaus are fitting my price range and minimum accommodation needs But I have no idea as to the suitability of those boats to meet the mission parameters. And comfortable for a family of six? Storage space and tankage seem rather short on those.

Ultimately I may need to revise some part of the parameters. I really want to take my children on this trip. It's and education for them and for my wife and I. I have dreamed about doing a circumnavigation since I was a kid and read about Magellan and hearing about people sailing around the world. I remember learning about catamarans and my imagination really took off thinking about sailing one of those around the world. (Sorry guys I fell in LOVE with catamarans the first time I saw one.)

I'm really trying to get a good list of boats so we can go look at them. I only have so much time and cannot charter a whole bunch of boats just to check them out.

Maybe I am trying to go too many places, i.e. Should I revise the mission? This is a very unattractive option. I want to take my kids to see most of the world.

Are the boats I'm looking at all capable of sailing reasonably safe where we want to go? All are certified but that's not what I'm asking Would you take them on a circumnavigation?

The space differences on a mono and a cat are stark. Can we do it comfortably on a 46-50' mono? would you?
Will rolling around and heeling on a mono be hard on little kids?
What size minimum size mono would work? Ideal size?
What size minimum size cat? Ideal size?
Any other thoughts ideas or suggestions?

I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Best regards,
Justin

Book worthy idea.

Your kids are young enough that they'll adapt to small spaces fine. Teenagers not so.

Boatwise. Well try a few overnighters. The non starters will be obvious.

Are your wife and kids on board with the plan? Get them engaged in the planning and boat selection.

Home schooling? Maybe start early.

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[MarkJ]

A santa Cruz 50??????? I don't know if thats meant to be serious but a Santa Cruz 50 is a race boat with NO cabins in it.
If you want everyone undressing in front of each other, go for it. But people in the anchorage are gunna talk.


My sugestions:
Stay way, way, right away from race boats.
Your going cruising so get a cruising boat.
I have been on my mono for 6 years and it would drive a mob of kids batty. A cat not only goves them more space it gives them no adjoining walls so they can make more noise.
The salon and cockpit are larger so even on rainy days they can see outside where in a mono they are below without large windows.
Parents on a mono will have an adjoing wall with one kids cabin so u will want to temper the throws of passion. But in a cat not pnly can you do it like a porno movie but you can allocate all the noisy kids to one hull (the boys) and the parents and the quiet kids can have the other hull.

I think there are more usable living spaces on a cat that give the space and separation that you will find necessary.
Friends of mine had a tarp made up to suspend above their foredeck. It made a huge extra living room.

Things that seem inconsequential must have a dramatic effect when theres 6: you need a larger dinghy and they can be bigger, easier, on a cat. 2 swim platforms instead of one lets the kids spread out; the tramp at the bow is 5 times the size of a monos bow. And the two bow seats instead of the monos none.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Belaurora

Yay I love sharing my spreadsheets!
Interesting question and one I have given a some amount of thought to relative to other medical conditions.

According to research, nearly 100% of (human) occupants of life rafts will vomit in rough seas. 60% of student aircrew members suffer from air sickness at some time during their training. For vertical motion (heave), oscillation at a frequency of about 0.2 hz is the most provocative. Motion at 1 Hz is less than 1/10th as provocative. About 7% of seagoing passengers report vomiting during a journey (Lawther and Griffin, 1988).

So Probability of Seasick (Ps) per passenger is 0.07% per trip. N=6 so Σ(Ps)1-6 = 0.42%. That’s less than 1% chance per voyage for all six passengers. However, young children are more prone and we will be making many passages so the likelihood is almost 100% that one or more crew will be seasick at some point.
On a per passage basis at least one crew member would be sick per 14.3 passages.

Thankfully remedial actions can be taken to reduce or completely ameliorate the symptoms. Furthermore, no long term effects have ever been noted i.e. death. So the probability of death = 0.

You are rather naive about seasickness.

The remedies are highly idiosyncratic, they affect people differently.

The side effects of Scopolamine are such that my wife, a pharmacist, does not recommend it. The biggest issue is diminished cognitive abilities. I cannot use as the dry mouth syndrome is overwhelming for me.


Seasickness can be debilitating, it has happened to me once. But I have seen many other cases. I had a crew member who puked from Bermuda to St Barths. He could keep nothing down, we could just keep him hydrated. He was useless of a crew member.

[matauwhi]

G'day, Mate. No reason why you couldn't start your circumnavigation from New Zealand. Beaut spot down here. Nice environment to for the kids. I have a well kept Mason 53 that has an ideal layout for your family and will safely take you to most places you want to venture. Pics in my album on my profile page. You can send me a PM if you want to discuss in more detail anytime. Met heaps of families that have have cruised successfully with their kids over my 16 years out here. All the best with your dreams, just make sure to turn them into reality one day. Cheers.

[thomm225]

I believe there was another couple with small children that were sailing the equatorial waters as you say you want to but as often happens in that area he ran out of wind.

There were waves but not much wind. There was water and a nice view of the stars but after days and days of rocking and rolling it started to get old.

Have you studied the wind charts. You may want to do a spread sheet on how far North or South to stay away from the equator and in the trade winds.That could be more important than the boat you pick.

Steven Callahan stayed along 17-18N Latitude I believe on his 6 man Avon life raft after his sailboat sank and had pretty good wind the whole trip.

[thomm225]

Also, this guy is in Washington DC.

Think of the adjustment he/they will have to make being alone on a small boat. Of course he wants to set sail. It's so crowded where he is anyone would want a break from it, but saying and doing are two different things.

What if he loses power and his computer goes down?

I like a legal pad in that "emergency!?" situation but "a city feller" may find that excel doesn't work well on the ole legal pad.

Just a couple thoughts before you buy your 50' sailboat and set sail for ....... the lower bay.

The lower bay will be enough at first so start there. An experienced sailor recently hit one of the 4 Islands of the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel and he was experienced. Yep, there are 4 Islands over 17 miles but one of them jumped right out in front of his sailboat.

He had sailed down from Annapolis and was headed out into the Atlantic and then South.

That's another thing. After taking care of little kids for all hours you still have to stay awake at night so you don't hit stuff. Or you can catnap but you will be much more tired than you ever were on land until you adjust.

Then there's the heat or the cold.

Just a couple small details to consider. . . . .

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Don't count the mono's out yet.

We are planning a cruise to New Zealand with our 2 kids, a boy and a girl.
In general I don't think girls need their own cabins, I DO think each kid needs their own berth and storage. A curtain would go a long way towards acceptable privacy.

The monos that come to mind for your trip include

CAL 40
CAL 43
CAL 48
COLUMBIA 43
COLUMBIA 50
ISLANDER 44
MORGAN OUT ISLAND 41
PEARSON 40
PEARSON 43
SUNDEER 60
SANTA CRUZ 40
SANTA CRUZ 50

SNIP.....

What's your budget to buy & outfit? That will inform the range of recommendations.

Hello!

I enjoyed reading your post above. I think your description of berths is very good. Several good points.

Boat choices or recommendations are always influenced by what we know, have experienced or imagine.

I don't know if your boat list you posted was based solely on length, or if you have been on those boats or if you have sailed offshore on them.

Since you have two young children, I can imagine you will want a safe boat for your long cruise. I would.

Because the OP has little sailing experience or knowledge of these boats, my remarks that follow are simple and direct.

I have done some sailing and racing offshore and in strong winds on a Santa Cruz 50 boat, and I agree with MarkJ that it is NOT a good choice for the OP.

As MarkJ mentioned it is set up for racing, primarily. They generally have very Spartan interiors, with what is close to being pipe berths. Some have been modified a bit to make them more cruise friendly, but I would never call them a purposefully designed cruising boat or one appropriate for a couple with young kids.

They are designed as ULDB or Ultra Light Displacement Boats, optimized for speed. Race boats. With race boat gear, race boat trade offs in comfort and rigs. They are by definition ULTRA LIGHT. They can have light and twitchy rigs.

I would be happy to race on one across the Pacific, but I would not choose one to cruise across any ocean or high latitudes.

In short, for the kind of cruise projected by the OP, or with a family with small children, intending to cruise across oceans, the Santa Cruz boats or similar race boats would not be on my list of boats to buy. I like the boats, but I would not pick them for the intended cruise or for high latitude sailing.

Respectfully,

[zbaranskyi]

Good luck!


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[Belaurora]

Thanks for the input.

I've been checking out the suggested vessels on Yachtworld. There are some very attractive boats at attractive prices. Seriously considering a custom steel or aluminum. Prices on some of those are very attractive, <150K and several are far less. Plus I own a machine shop and can weld Steel and Aluminum, and already have a ton of metal working tools so that makes those attractive too.

There is an interesting boat on Yachtworld currently, a larger version of the Bluebird of Thorne. She's a twin keeled 54 footer, that I that looks very nice. I've done a bit of research on twin keels. Seems some folks like them and some don't, but it looks like it would suit our needs just fine.

Also there are a couple Bruce Roberts designs and a few others we like, especially looking at the pilothouse setups, with inside and outside helm stations.

It is apparent a monohull is going to suit our budget better even if it needs refits and/or rerigging for easier sail handling. Thanks for all the help guys. I think I have what I needed.

[chall]

Best of luck with the search.

We looked at steel/aluminium and there is certainly some good value propositions in steel. We eventually decided against it on the basis of ongoing maintenance.

You however obviously have more skill in this area than me so maybe it is the answer for you.

Not all Roberts were built equal, a professionally built one can be a real gem but beware poorly home built vessels. Fortunately the market tends to value them based in the worst common denominator so a well built Roberts can be good value when you do the figures.

Also while not everyone likes the Roberts designs(our boat is a Roberts design) and they are not the fastest boats, there are plenty of happy owners to be found.

[GeoOR]

Belaurora,
If you do make it out there with the family in tow and keep a blog it would be great if you could let us all know. As someone a few years further back in the timeline for departure than you, I for one would be interested in hearing about things that worked, things that didn't, and so on.
Cheers!

[Kenr74]

Although I have no experience with the size of boats you are considering, I do have a family of 6 (ages 3, 4, 6, 8 ). We spent 2 weeks in Lake Huron's North Channel last year on a 22 foot MacGregor. It was a bit cramped, but we had a blast. We have now moved up to a Chrysler 26 that is downright palacial in comparison. I think your family's mental and spiritual health will do more to make your journey comfortable (or even doable) than layout of a boat. Of course the boat must be up to the task and others can help with that better than I. Once safety criteria are satisfied, pick a boat you will enjoy being on.
I would also recommend getting as much time on the water with your family as possible. It will truly equip you to make a better boat buying decision. I get your joke about sea sickness and thread drift, but we got into wretched weather in the North Channel. I was the only one not puking. No one else could function enough to even clean it up, and I couldn't leave the tiller. We look back and laugh, but in all seriousness that kind of experience will teach more about boat life than years of research.
Do enjoy the process, I think planning is almost as much fun as the going. And do blog a about your journey. We will be a few years behind you, and would enjoy learning from your experiences.

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[Outsideworld]

Family of 5 here

I will look through all the replies in next few days (month, ha ha), but wondering what is your latest pick?
We keep going back and forth.

[Matt_Garrison]

I have spent the past few months pondering the idea of sailing with my children ( ages 10,6,2 ) around the world. My wife and I have decided that a 7-10 year plan is probably going to be the best option for us. I have read the blogs of many different people that are currently sailing around the world. I came across SailingTotem.com . They even have compiled a book of information from many different cruising families, Voyaging with Kids. I have just started reading it and it is loaded with great information. I wish you and your family well.

Matt

Tide and Time wait for no one.

[chuckr]

I might suggest you take a long week and go charter someplace in the se Caribbean where there is distance between islands - not like the BVIs. You said you don't know how to sail so I assume that is the same with your wife - but what the heck - it's easy right!

Sounds like a couple we met in Maine a few years ago who had spreadsheets up the wazooo as they were planning their circum nav. Tried to talk us in to going with them and they had a great boat - Caliber LRC - We declined as we did not think we were ready to even think about it. A couple of years and a bit of experience more we sailed into the Bay Islands and they were there. Had not gotten beyond the Bay Islands and just as we arrived they headed north to the USA sold the boat and bought an RV.
Who ever got the boat got a jem and an incredible deal with all the stuff they put on her.

Before you join the Olympic High Board diving team - learn to dive and make sure your wife can dive too.