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03-07-2022, 05:03
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#61
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Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 35,225
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ballsnall
Your upgrade was never designed to include an adequate cooking solution which you now want to "tack on".
You will have less capacity and functionality and will need to make serious comprises. You seem to be looking for affirmation that all will be fine but you system is seriously undersized.
Spend an additional 1200 euro on sizing your system correctly or replacing your propane system.
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You're not really listening to him. He's thought this through pretty well.
I've been living on board for two weeks this time, and I haven't yet turned the gas on to my gas system. I have been happily living with one induction burner (plus microwave) and cooking great meals for myself and occasionally for guests. Two burners, only one of which can be used on full power at a time, plus thermal cooking, microwave, etc., is perfectly adequate for many use cases.
I have a four burner gas stove and I'm not sure I have ever used more than two at a time in 13 years on this boat. Very many cruising sailboats have only 3 burner stoves, where it's almost impossible to use all three at a time unless you have miniature pans.
Different people cook differently, and the way the OP cooks is not at all unusual.
Everyone I know who has converted to electric cooking using induction has been delighted with the change, and only one I know has some kind of unusually massive electrical system.
I would rip out my gas stove altogether if I could buy a drop-in induction replacement, and the changes to electrical system required would be minimal.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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03-07-2022, 05:09
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#62
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Malmo Sweden
Boat: Regina 43
Posts: 669
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Ballsnall. There are two bottle necks on my proposed system. The first is charging, which I can always increase in the future if I need to in various different ways if it proves necessary. The second, and this i the one that impacts on "functionality" as you put it, is the inverter. But again, I can always buy a second inverter and parallel that with the first. That second inverter would cost 1500euro and would give me no holds barred cooking (both hobs and oven simultaneously (4.8kW)). I would rather spend my money on that should it prove necessary than on a new propane system.
If it proves necessary I will do these things. But I am going to first try with the system as proposed and see what living with that is like.
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03-07-2022, 05:24
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#63
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 514
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Na Mara, only you can decide what compromises are acceptable to you. Even if you accept the limitations of the inverter, your solar charging may prove even more challenging. I would suggest getting a cheap benchtop induction cooker and maybe even a microwave oven and seeing how it goes for a while before committing serious cash on the cooktop and oven not to mention the alternator upgrade you may require. Induction cooking certainly is the way to go if you can solve the power requirements.
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03-07-2022, 05:40
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#64
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Malmo Sweden
Boat: Regina 43
Posts: 669
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
I would rip out my gas stove altogether if I could buy a drop-in induction replacement, and the changes to electrical system required would be minimal.
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I am right now drawing up plans for gimballed plywood sheathed framed box into which to put a mini oven, mini microwave and two hob induction cooktop. It would be great if there were more induction marine stoves and ovens, but I have only found two and neither fit my rather small space for a cooker unfortunately. They are also expensive. Even if I did have enough space I think I might still DIY this to minimise costs and to get the gimballed microwave.
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03-07-2022, 06:07
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2022
Posts: 165
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Na Mara
I am right now drawing up plans for gimballed plywood sheathed framed box into which to put a mini oven, mini microwave and two hob induction cooktop. It would be great if there were more induction marine stoves and ovens, but I have only found two and neither fit my rather small space for a cooker unfortunately. They are also expensive. Even if I did have enough space I think I might still DIY this to minimise costs and to get the gimballed microwave.
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If you can build a plywood box to fit, then give that box to a stainless steel fabrication biz and they can build it for you. Use your existing gimbals and you’re all set.
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03-07-2022, 06:08
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#66
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Vaitses/Herreshoff Meadow Lark 37'
Posts: 1,144
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
I have a four burner gas stove and I'm not sure I have ever used more than two at a time in 13 years on this boat. Very many cruising sailboats have only 3 burner stoves, where it's almost impossible to use all three at a time unless you have miniature pans.
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I have a four burner stove in my house and I haven't used two burners at the same time more than half-a-dozen times in the last thirty years, and I've never used more than two.
And that said, I haven't used them at all in the last three months, because I've been experimenting with an electric setup I'm intending to move onto my boat. Everything I've eaten I've cooked on an induction cooktop, in a combination microwave/air fryer, or with an Instant Pot.
And I've tried powering them from a Bluetti AC Max, so I'm not only certain that the combination of cooking methods will suit my lifestyle, I know the actual power demands are manageable.
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03-07-2022, 06:08
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Malmo Sweden
Boat: Regina 43
Posts: 669
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
SV tom, that would be cool but a bit more expensive no. Also I quite like the idea of making a nice wooden box with teak trim that's in keeping with the boat. I enjoy wood working and this would be a bit of a project. The down side is that I will have have to go for smaller ovens and microwaves, but the up side is that it should look really nice when finished and it will be exactly to my specifications.
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03-07-2022, 06:39
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#68
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2022
Posts: 165
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Na Mara
SV tom, that would be cool but a bit more expensive no. Also I quite like the idea of making a nice wooden box with teak trim that's in keeping with the boat. I enjoy wood working and this would be a bit of a project. The down side is that I will have have to go for smaller ovens and microwaves, but the up side is that it should look really nice when finished and it will be exactly to my specifications.
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Well if you enjoy working with wood then you are all set. Go for it. I sailed a boat up from Grenada a couple of weeks back and had electric galley - it was already warm down below and glad burning gas didn’t add to it. You only have the additional heat from the cooking and not from combustion.
Big believer in electric everything down below.
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03-07-2022, 08:06
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#69
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Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 35,225
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Na Mara
I am right now drawing up plans for gimballed plywood sheathed framed box into which to put a mini oven, mini microwave and two hob induction cooktop. It would be great if there were more induction marine stoves and ovens, but I have only found two and neither fit my rather small space for a cooker unfortunately. They are also expensive. Even if I did have enough space I think I might still DIY this to minimise costs and to get the gimballed microwave.
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I thought about that, but it's just too much trouble. My gas system is working fine so I don't have the same urgent necessity which you do.
That being said, even if my gas system was broken I wouldn't be in a particular hurry. The reason why I know your plan is reasonable is that at the beginning of one summer, my gas solenoid went down. I had a spare on board, but didn't bother to replace it until the next spring. Because even with 4 or 5 people on board sometime, we were doing fine with just the single induction burner, which I often ran off batteries and inverter.
I have a second freestanding induction hob on board in case I need to heat two pots at the same time, but I never needed that bad enough to ever take it out of the locker.
For some kind of cooking only one burner is really OK. Obviously you're not going to prepare a Michelin star dinner like that, but I'm a vegetarian and the meals are easy to cook --- one pot maybe, which can be put aside to stew without heat, then fry or stir fry something, and you've got a meal. My boat was built with a built-in large microwave/grill, and that also gets a lot of use. Just nuke stuff you've prepared a little ahead, just before people sit down. One burner covers 90% of even my desires, much less needs.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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03-07-2022, 08:51
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#70
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Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 15,350
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
A school bus alternator on his main will neatly and economically solve that problem. It's certainly right to point it out, however.
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More power sources would help, and it is reassuring to see Na Mara has some plans to incorporate these. I think with only 600w of solar these additional options are going to be needed, unless his cruising ground is limited.
A large frame alternator is a valuable addition that I too would recommend to Na Mara, but it depends how much motoring is done. We have a 4.2 kw alternator derated to around 3kw for reliability, but while it is a great back up, it contributes little to the overall energy budget. If things get desperate, the main engine can be run just to charge the batteries, but who wants a system where the main engine is needed to cook a meal, even occasionally?
We also have over a 1000w of solar and use electric cooking all of the time or only occasionally depending on the area and season where we are cruising.
Electric cooking is fantastic. No struggling with finding gas supplies, no moisture generation etc. There are many advantages. However, it is easy for your “eyes to be bigger than your belly” as my father would no doubt say. A large and efficient battery bank is helpful, but the energy still needs to be produced and with only 600w of solar this is going to be difficult.
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03-07-2022, 11:49
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Malmo Sweden
Boat: Regina 43
Posts: 669
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
noelex, you and I are thinking alike about the main engine as a primary source of electrons. I sail to sail not to motor. I have the attitude that using the engine to go somewhere other than through a narrow channel, or into or out of a harbour, is an admission of defeat. Also charging from the engine is chronically inefficient. Even with a 250A alternator I would only be generating at 3kW, whilst using 4 liters of fuel an hour. That's about 1.3l per kWh generated. A typical modern diesel generator manages 0.35l per kWh. So even with a really high-power alternator and allowing for hot water spin offs, my engine is a really inefficient generator. It only makes sense to use it as such because I carry 350l of fuel. Its also the cheapest option upfront as I already have a 100A alternator, I just run the engine more. Upgrading the alternator makes this option more expensive. (1000-2000 euro including the belt kit)
But I would definitely rather get power from somewhere else if possible. As I should only have to recharge every 4-8 days a 2kW suitcase generator should be fine. Its annoying to have to run it for 3 hours every week as they are loud and obnoxious, but if is only infrequently, I can live with that. This is the next cheapest option (650euro).
I could also buy some fold out panels and put them across the top of the pilot house. I could maybe get another 300-400W that way, but only when stationary or in fair weather and it still might not be enough on cloudy winter days. Maybe 1000 euro including regulators.
The most expensive option is to do a pair of hydrogenerators. I could then get about 1 kWh of charging for every 2-3 hours underway. 15-20 hours underway should see me fully charged even from empty and fully charged I have 4-8 days until I need to recharge depending on insolation. So long as I move when I'm out of juice, I should be able to stay ahead of my power consumption even with cooking. However, this setup is a way more expensive. (10000 euro all in for this one, half that if I only do one hydrogenerator, but that probably wont cut it.)
At the moment, for the sake of redundancy and expense, I'm leaning toward a combination of the fold out panels and the suitcase generator as these can be used both underway and in harbour, and they are relatively cheap.
Finally, I have backups in case of electrical failure. A little camping stove with camping propane bottles will be aboard, as will a barbecue.
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03-07-2022, 12:28
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#72
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always in motion is the future

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 20,096
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
You simply need more solar. Just install more solar. Don’t say it can’t be done, because it can. Wherever you have a panel, you can put another panel on top with sliders so it can be deployed at anchor.
For full time live aboard and everything electric you must aim for a minimum of 1.5kW of panels. And those should be quality panels, that deliver more than their rating when new.
For battery I found that 10kWh capacity is enough so two of those provides full redundancy.
__________________
“It’s a trap!” - Admiral Ackbar.
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03-07-2022, 13:40
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#73
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Malmo Sweden
Boat: Regina 43
Posts: 669
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
600W is as much as will fit over the back of my boat. That with maybe the odd heavily shaded 50W panel, is as much solar I can fit with rigid panels. I could put 300 in semi rigid panels on my pilot house roof but those will be partially shaded. I am loathed to do that because getting them off again when they are done will be a PITA and may ruin the deck there. My preferred alternative is to just fold out panels there to the same effect but that will be weather dependent. I can also get 500W up the mast with the flix system but again that is very weather dependent and can be only used when stationary. Beyond that it's just getting silly and will detract from my enjoyment of the boat.
When solar is good the 600W will be sufficient when stationary. When solar isn't good or when underway I'll want an alternative power source anyway. For instance, when cruising in late autumn early spring around Sweden I will be running my diesel heater pretty much all the time and it takes 2kWh out of the batteries everyday. With all my other loads I will need to be able to put 4 kWh into the batteries per day. Solar in the winter in Sweden won't do that no matter how much of it I have. Throwing more solar at this problem wont fix it. Neither, will wind as often when it is really cold there is no wind. Here I will either want an alternator upgrade if I am moving regularly, or a suitcase generator if stationary (actually mostly I'll want to go from plug to plug).
When underway big alternators or hydro generators are the preferred options.
My batteries are 7.2kWh, which I deem to be sufficient. I could maybe fit one more 200Ah battery and get that up to 9.6kWh, but I really don't see that the expense is justified.
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03-07-2022, 14:51
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#74
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Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2007
Boat: Bestevaer.
Posts: 15,350
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Quote:
Originally Posted by Na Mara
noelex, you and I are thinking alike about the main engine as a primary source of electrons.
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I agree running the engine just to generate power is a poor option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Na Mara
I sail to sail not to motor. I have the attitude that using the engine to go somewhere other than through a narrow channel, or into or out of a harbour, is an admission of defeat. Also charging from the engine is chronically inefficient. Even with a 250A alternator I would only be generating at 3kW, whilst using 4 liters of fuel an hour. That's about 1.3l per kWh generated. A typical modern diesel generator manages 0.35l per kWh. So even with a really high-power alternator and allowing for hot water spin offs, my engine is a really inefficient generator. It only makes sense to use it as such because I carry 350l of fuel. Its also the cheapest option upfront as I already have a 100A alternator, I just run the engine more. Upgrading the alternator makes this option more expensive. (1000-2000 euro including the belt kit)
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 we are cruising 300+ days a year and have so far averaged under 70 hours a year running the engine. Sailing is much nicer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Na Mara
But I would definitely rather get power from somewhere else if possible. As I should only have to recharge every 4-8 days a 2kW suitcase generator should be fine. Its annoying to have to run it for 3 hours every week as they are loud and obnoxious, but if is only infrequently, I can live with that. This is the next cheapest option (650euro).
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I think you will need this option at least for some cruising areas. The initial purchase price is relatively inexpensive, but is running a suitcase generator 3 hours every week preferable to propane? This run time will only produce an average of about an extra 25 AHrs per day. Is this enough? You need to also factor in the reliability and need to carry (more) petrol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Na Mara
I could also buy some fold out panels and put them across the top of the pilot house. I could maybe get another 300-400W that way, but only when stationary or in fair weather and it still might not be enough on cloudy winter days. Maybe 1000 euro including regulators.
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If you can increase your solar production this way this would be a great solution and would reduce my concerns for your planned modifications. Electric cooking is a better alternative to propane providing you can produce enough energy to support this option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Na Mara
The most expensive option is to do a pair of hydrogenerators. I could then get about 1 kWh of charging for every 2-3 hours underway. 15-20 hours underway should see me fully charged even from empty and fully charged I have 4-8 days until I need to recharge depending on insolation.
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I have no practical experience of hydogeneration, but it has a terrible reputation for reliability amongst long distance cruisers. I hope the manufacturers can solve the issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Na Mara
Finally, I have backups in case of electrical failure. A little camping stove with camping propane bottles will be aboard, as will a barbecue.
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 . I am surprised more boats do not carry this option. Although with our previous propane only boat we had this alternative and never needed it in 12 years of full time cruising. Propane has many drawbacks, but it is very reliable.
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03-07-2022, 15:13
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#75
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Moderator

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Cruising North Sea and Baltic (Summer)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 35,225
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Re: Pushing the limits of electric cooking
Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77
. . . A large frame alternator is a valuable addition that I too would recommend to Na Mara, but it depends how much motoring is done. We have a 4.2 kw alternator derated to around 3kw for reliability, but while it is a great back up, it contributes little to the overall energy budget. If things get desperate, the main engine can be run just to charge the batteries, but who wants a system where the main engine is needed to cook a meal, even occasionally?. . .
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Keep in mind he has huge battery capacity -- enough for several days of consumption including electric cooking. So whenever he is motoring for any reason, the large-frame alternator can harvest a ton of power, after which he is good for a few more days.
I think he is also not allergic to harbours, unlike you, so whenever he's in some kind of harbour, he will then be good for a few days whether the sun shines or not.
I think his plan is reasonable.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
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