Propane vs Alcohol Stove

[four winds]

Boatpoker, your edit of my post misrepresents what I stated.

[merlinuxo]

As in many things, detractors of non-pressurized alcohol do not have personal experience to base their claims of inefficiency on.
My Origo takes maybe 30 seconds longer to boil water than my home LNG stove.
An almost identical and more economical option is the Cook Mate line of stoves. Copies of Origo stoves.

[ftamburrano]

In short: I am Italian, I own an Etap 28i since 1990 and it's about twenty years that I use an ORIGO STOVE. Exceptional!!! It takes about 15% more time to boil the same amount of water, but this is practically negligeable: basically I get my spaghetti in 10 minutes instead of 8'30" necessary with propane.
But the gain in security is enormous. I am a chem engineer, I know that propane is heavier than air: a slow leak of propane would possibly end-up with a stratified layer of propane in bottom volumes where it would stay, ready to explodeat the first spark.
Now, my ETAP is already a very safe boat, being unsinkable thanks to the double hull and expanded polyurethane layer in the middle of the two. With my French flag, I am exempted from the obligation of floating rescue devices and their compulsory revisions every 2 years in Italy. Total safety? NO!!! You have the risk of fire. I have seen several fires of RPG boats already, in harbours or at sea. So, twenty years ago, I have literally thrown away my twin gas stove and replaced it with an ORIGO. A real marvel. Stainless steel, after twenty years it looks like new and works like the first day. Impossible, the way it is built, to cause a fire: my boat will never catch fire. I have eliminated any other potential source of fire: gas lighters etc. A day, I even re-made the entire electrical circuit, using cables thickker than design, and all recalculeted for eventual overloads, everything protected by protection switches and circuits. No smokers allowed on board. Alcohol is stored outside. If it pours, it will drain out.
The only consumables are the fuel and alcohol containers, full of porous material which adsorbs alcohol: better to change them every 6-7 years or so, because the top hole tends to get plugged with residues.
I am and remain enthusiastical about Origo, because IT IS THE FINAL SOLUTION against the danger of fire. The ETAP takes care of the danger of sinking, so, since 1990, I sail happily, safely and with a total feeling of security, in the Mediterranean, cooking fantastic meals made up not only of spaghetti.

[SailFastTri]

For those who use disposable propane or butane bottles, I have a neat way to store them on your stern pulpit:
1) cut a section of schedule 40 PVC pipe sized so the inside diameter is slightly larger than your fuel cans, measured to slightly longer than 4 or 5 cans of fuel
2) install a screw-on end cap at the bottom end, and drill a 1/8" hole for venting
3) install an unthreaded end cap at the top end (not glued)
4) cut a piece of aluminum flat stock a few inches longer than the entire interior length, and bend both end of the bar (in same direction) 90-degrees. After bending the bar its length should just fit the interior length of your pipe. You will use this bar to lift up the cans for easy reach when you remove the top cap.

Attach the pipe vertically on your rails with clamps or black tie wraps (not white). You can wipe off any manufacturer lettering with a rag and solvents.

[Snowpetrel]

https://youtu.be/QoJzEDz0dqk another excellant video from SV Panope.

I am pretty happy with the Origo stove I have. It is a bit slower and the alcohol smell can be a bit strong at times. But the simplicity and safety makes it a worthwile tradeoff.

[a64pilot]

Instead of bypassing the solenoid, how about carrying a spare solenoid?

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by foufou

When I was a teenager we had an alcohol stove. It behaved well and many a fine meal was enjoyed. Once anchored in eastern Long Island we heard shouting in the morning and it was a couple exiting their companionway post haste followed by flames from an alcohol stove. So while "safe" they are not foolproof. No fuel or system is. Good installation and practice are helpful. I prefer propane and use care. Knocking on wood And propane at $3/gallon it's a bargain

An alcohol stove fire can be put out with water.

Someone mentioned wanting to see safety statistics for propane stoves.

An ABYC compliant stove and propane installation is about as safe as you can get. The stove and installation are pretty expensive though so some folks try to save money and/or do stupid things and that's where the danger comes in.

Any "camping stove" is going to be a danger on a boat.

[ramblinrod]

First of all,

PORTABLE CAMP STOVES HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING ON A BOAT,

(unless one keeps them safely stowed and only uses them on land).

1. A portable camp stove is portable. If it is not fastened down in anyway, it can and will become portable at the most inopportune time, such as when operating, with a flame, with a hot removable cooking surface, with a hot pot, containing hot solids and or liquids, that can all become airborne, with the first unexpected wake.

Anyone watching the "Sailing La Vagabond" series has seen that pretty (but perhaps not so bright) girl get scalded at least twice, after knowingly having a pot sliding around on a proper marine stove, let alone a camp stove.

If one secures a portable camp stove inside the boat, it is no longer portable, it is a permanent (or semi) installation. Why not use a proper marine stove for a permanent installation?

2. A portable camp stove does not have potholders. Potholders on a proper, gimballed marine stove help (but not absolutely) prevent hot pots of whatever from going flying across the cabin (or just spilling contents on the person in front of the stove).

3. A portable camp stove does not have the safety features to that a proper marine stove has. A camp stove is designed to be safe when set on a flat stable surface like a picnic table. They are not safe, when used on a rocking and rolling surface like a gimballed marine stove. Additionally, properly installed marine stoves have safety features to help prevent fuel leaks into the cabin:

1. Only one gas connection in the cabin (hose to stove).
2. Solenoid valve to shut off gas.
3. Sniffer to detect leaked gas.
4. Thermocouples on burners to prevent unburned fuel escape on flame out.
5. Most likely fuel leak vented overboard.
6. 1 lb propane cylinders are notorious for having leaky valves. (One brand we purchased years ago for our stern rail BBQ, had 25% leak after just one disconnection.)

Why use a portable camp stove? Well, some do because they are dirt cheap in comparison to a proper marine stove with all of the safety features.

How much is your safety worth?

Try taking a walk through a burn ward before you make a decision on this.

Bring a barf bag.

Imagine one of these victims being your wife, girlfriend, buddy, or child, who was just supposed to be having a pleasant meal aboard your boat.

Now before everyone jumps in declaring they have safely used a portable camp stove on a boat for whatever number of years...


...Just because you have been lucky thus far, does not make this a safe practice.

There is always tomorrow to become yet another burn victim.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...ctim&FORM=IGRE

To help avoid living the rest of your life with your (or someone else's that you caused) horrific burn scars, it is worth investing in proper equipment up to the task.

If you're not willing to spend the relatively miniscule amount to purchase and install the proper equipment, open a can of tuna and make a sandwich. The risk is not worth the reward of saving a few bucks and using a portable camp stove on a boat.

[hamburking]

Originally Posted by merlinuxo

An almost identical and more economical option is the Cook Mate line of stoves. Copies of Origo stoves.

I thought CookMate was just Origo sold in Canada ? Some legal issue with the name.

When I needed my last stove, I was not able to find Origo for sale anywhere in Canada, but I could get a CookMate. On delivery, it appeared to be an origo in every possible way.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by four winds

Boatpoker, your edit of my post misrepresents what I stated.

Your post was not edited.

Look again.

It was a direct cut and paste of another post by someone else.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

First of all,

PORTABLE CAMP STOVES HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING ON A BOAT,

(unless one keeps them safely stowed and only uses them on land).

1. A portable camp stove is portable. If it is not fastened down in anyway, it can and will become portable at the most inopportune time, such as when operating, with a flame, with a hot removable cooking surface, with a hot pot, containing hot solids and or liquids, that can all become airborne, with the first unexpected wake.

Anyone watching the "Sailing La Vagabond" series has seen that pretty (but perhaps not so bright) girl get scalded at least twice, after knowingly having a pot sliding around on a proper marine stove, let alone a camp stove.

If one secures a portable camp stove inside the boat, it is no longer portable, it is a permanent (or semi) installation. Why not use a proper marine stove for a permanent installation?

2. A portable camp stove does not have potholders. Potholders on a proper, gimballed marine stove help (but not absolutely) prevent hot pots of whatever from going flying across the cabin (or just spilling contents on the person in front of the stove).

3. A portable camp stove does not have the safety features to that a proper marine stove has. A camp stove is designed to be safe when set on a flat stable surface like a picnic table. They are not safe, when used on a rocking and rolling surface like a gimballed marine stove. Additionally, properly installed marine stoves have safety features to help prevent fuel leaks into the cabin:

1. Only one gas connection in the cabin (hose to stove).
2. Solenoid valve to shut off gas.
3. Sniffer to detect leaked gas.
4. Thermocouples on burners to prevent unburned fuel escape on flame out.
5. Most likely fuel leak vented overboard.
6. 1 lb propane cylinders are notorious for having leaky valves. (One brand we purchased years ago for our stern rail BBQ, had 25% leak after just one disconnection.)

Why use a portable camp stove? Well, some do because they are dirt cheap in comparison to a proper marine stove with all of the safety features.

How much is your safety worth?

Try taking a walk through a burn ward before you make a decision on this.

Bring a barf bag.

Imagine one of these victims being your wife, girlfriend, buddy, or child, who was just supposed to be having a pleasant meal aboard your boat.

Now before everyone jumps in declaring they have safely used a portable camp stove on a boat for whatever number of years...


...Just because you have been lucky thus far, does not make this a safe practice.

There is always tomorrow to become yet another burn victim.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...ctim&FORM=IGRE

To help avoid living the rest of your life with your (or someone else's that you caused) horrific burn scars, it is worth investing in proper equipment up to the task.

If your not willing to spend the relatively miniscule amount to purchase and install the proper equipment, open a can of tuna and make a sandwich. The risk is not worth the reward of saving a few bucks and using a portable camp stove on a boat.

Thank you!

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by merlinuxo

As in many things, detractors of non-pressurized alcohol do not have personal experience to base their claims of inefficiency on. ........... .

And some people don't read the posts before replying to them.

I had an alcohol stove on my previous boat and have an ABYC compliant propane stove on my current boat. The difference is night and day. Propane wins hands down.

[SecondBase]

Originally Posted by rwidman

An alcohol stove fire can be put out with water.

Someone mentioned wanting to see safety statistics for propane stoves.

An ABYC compliant stove and propane installation is about as safe as you can get. The stove and installation are pretty expensive though so some folks try to save money and/or do stupid things and that's where the danger comes in.

Any "camping stove" is going to be a danger on a boat.

The danger of a propane stove, ABYC or not, comes from any Point of Failure.

They are safe until they aren't.

Worst case scenario considerations may be what is driving the majority of thread commentators to suggest non-pressurized alcohol stoves as a more inert alternative. If we come back to the Pardey Principle of keeping things as simple as possible non-pressurized alcohol has simple evaporation as the most likely negative outcome.

Compare propane and non-pressure alcohol on these points.

- how many parts on the assembly list
- how many hours does the installation take
- list the top 10 points of failure
- what is the mean time to failure
- how many regulatory or fitting issues are mentioned on web boards
- how do you handle the worst case scenario well offshore

Hundreds, maybe a thousand, meals into it my Origo and it worked every single time. I have had two tiny problems with my Origo - lost knob (use pliers temporarily) and evaporation (add plastic cover). I expect my Origo to continue working reliably for the next 400 years.

Definitely all types of stoves on the water need careful operator use well beyond household considerations.

It is dirt simple - Which is genius.

I agree to the point of the camping stoves. For those who simply have to go the camping stove route the newer integrated stove and pot models add at least a little safety. Also the mountaineering cable suspension setups might be a poor man's gimbal.

[four winds]

UB

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Your post was not edited.

Look again.

It was a direct cut and paste of another post by someone else.

Sorry rod, I don't see what you are saying.

I was referring to post #44. Boatpoker quoting me.

To be clear, my stove burners have no thermocouples or pilot lights.

My oven has a thermocouple and a pilot light. The oven of course cuts on and off during baking to the thermostat setting.

Apparently the manufacturer thought this was OK.

I'm OK with it. Don't leave the stove while cooking. Don't believe any particularly dangerous situation exists. Flameouts have not been an issue. But on rare occasions I have simply relit the burner and continued.

[AJ_n_Audrey]

Thanks to all for the input on the propane stove and thermocouples; I will get a tech to look at it as soon as I can line that up, though since we're not cruising currently, I'm not using the stove at the moment. Mine is a gimballed Hillerange three burner stove with oven, btw.