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Old 20-01-2017, 16:22   #31
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

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Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
May not help boil faster but sure helps with steam in cabin
That steam is lost energy. Reduce it and you reduce energy loss, ergo the pot will reach the desired temperature faster.
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Old 20-01-2017, 17:30   #32
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

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Tests have been done, full versus empty, all things being equal, there is no advantage, i used to put containers in, till i read the report, just like boiling water, i thought putting a lid on would do it faster, not so, never stop learning.
Tests of what and for what measurements? I'll just bet that you feel the same about climate change information. Putting the lid on what? A pan, probably, but not noticeably or measurably to ordinary folk, and maybe not at all depending upon sizes, quantities and heat input. To evaluate, detail is needed, not half- or even fewer facts.
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Old 21-01-2017, 07:42   #33
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

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Right now I only have a built-in pull-out aluminum ice box in the cockpit, where many have replaced this with a 12V bar-type fridge. I am contemplating my retirement getaway voyage during these winter months, and trying to plan necessary improvements while still earning an income. So far I have new electrical and a windlass. One of the items I need to decide upon, in addition to an auto-helm (can't afford) and a way to bring my tender along, is refrigeration. I read one suggestion that I want to think about: if I have t right, this guy used a dedicated freezer to freeze jugs of ice; then he would rotate the jugs into a well-insulated cooler with the perishables and then back into the freezer on rotation. An intriguing idea. Any thoughts?

They make 12V Fridge / Freezers, for cars & trucks, that are ideal for this. They look like a regular w a cord for the lighter.
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Old 21-01-2017, 11:30   #34
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

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Do you have any reference for that assertion? Both theory and experience tell me that your statement is incorrect.

(Maybe someone was watching the covered pot and no one was watching the uncovered one, which would obviously have a much greater effect than the presence/absence of a lid. )
May not make a difference if you never open the door. That falling jug of water hurts more than the cold air when it hits your feet. A top loader not so much.
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Old 21-01-2017, 16:34   #35
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

I like the "pig" analogy, and the "beer flywheel."

Adding poly-iso gets you more r-factor, and cuts air movement which reduces heat transfer. If I was to use and cut the poly-iso, I'd add some aluminum tape to the exposed edges too.

We've always kept a foam mat on top of the freezer, haven't any data other than; "...it doesn't feel as cool as the lid does without it on."

If you want to get some real data, these are cheap as chips:

You can buy here:
https://www.amazon.com/Elitech-RC-5-...GADXDSK2D1AEGFnot related,etc, etc, but doing some testing now on fridge and freezer, but we are hauling out today so no data to share -- just yet.

BTW - Double plus Good [GOOD/GOOD] to Rich (and Charlie) on the CruiseRO CoolBlue Freezer I finished installing little over a week ago. Very nice custom plates that fit perfectly! Frozen beef tenderloin in there-- ummm good.

Cheers - Jim
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Old 22-01-2017, 16:49   #36
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

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Truthfully, I'd be more concerned about how long I could go without power before losing my steaks than with a couple of percentages of efficiency.

With the power out, the temps in the freezer are going to stay at freezing until all the ice melts. With any kind of insulation, that should take a number of days.
I second the motion here also... more insulation in and out of the freezer and I also have bags of ice that conform to the small spaces. I use the ice in the bags for drinks and also small sight seeing trips away from the boat. I keep my freezer full at all times with food and ice... as the food goes down the ice increases...
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Old 22-01-2017, 18:05   #37
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

Steaks, meat in general, and most food stuffs that you would want to freeze actually freezes and conversely thaws at lower temperatures than water. Jugs of water in your freezer won't stop your steaks from thawing but your steaks will save those jugs of ice for a short period of time. To get any advantage you need to lower the freezing point of the water which you can do by adding salt. Of course it ruins it as an emergency water supply. It makes no difference in your compressor run time, because what ever heat leaks through the insulation still needs to be removed. As stated previously, it will help a bit if you have lots of excess power and can afford to run the compressor when that power is available and turn it off when it's not..
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Old 22-01-2017, 18:27   #38
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

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Steaks, meat in general, and most food stuffs that you would want to freeze actually freezes and conversely thaws at lower temperatures than water. Jugs of water in your freezer won't stop your steaks from thawing but your steaks will save those jugs of ice for a short period of time. To get any advantage you need to lower the freezing point of the water which you can do by adding salt. Of course it ruins it as an emergency water supply. It makes no difference in your compressor run time, because what ever heat leaks through the insulation still needs to be removed. As stated previously, it will help a bit if you have lots of excess power and can afford to run the compressor when that power is available and turn it off when it's not..
I don't think the freezing temp. is the issue it is displacement of the cold in there?
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Old 22-01-2017, 20:42   #39
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

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Originally Posted by Captain Bill View Post
Steaks, meat in general, and most food stuffs that you would want to freeze actually freezes and conversely thaws at lower temperatures than water. Jugs of water in your freezer won't stop your steaks from thawing but your steaks will save those jugs of ice for a short period of time. To get any advantage you need to lower the freezing point of the water which you can do by adding salt. Of course it ruins it as an emergency water supply. It makes no difference in your compressor run time, because what ever heat leaks through the insulation still needs to be removed. As stated previously, it will help a bit if you have lots of excess power and can afford to run the compressor when that power is available and turn it off when it's not..
Guess what! Put a steak and jug of water in the same freezer, one cold enough to freeze the steak (and based on the quoted assumption, clearly the water) the temperature of both will wind up the same. So there is plenty of cold in the water, and the mass is probably greater too (water =~8 lbs/gal). There are other specifics to be considered, but the water will assist in keeping the steak at or below freezing longer than if the steak were alone at the same temperature.
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Old 22-01-2017, 20:59   #40
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

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Guess what! Put a steak and jug of water in the same freezer, one cold enough to freeze the steak (and based on the quoted assumption, clearly the water) the temperature of both will wind up the same. So there is plenty of cold in the water, and the mass is probably greater too (water =~8 lbs/gal). There are other specifics to be considered, but the water will assist in keeping the steak at or below freezing longer than if the steak were alone at the same temperature.
Actually yes on the surface both would read the.same -10 (used for illistration )
However lets assume the steak is 2 inches thick . At one inch in the steak will.still read -10 ut the water based ice would actually measure closer to 0 dec or even +10 deg f and once you take a measure in the block of ice 2 to 3 inches in you are likely up to an actual 30°f ,
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Old 23-01-2017, 00:08   #41
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

Ice is by no means a perfect insulator. Given not that much time the core temperature will match the surface.
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Old 23-01-2017, 03:16   #42
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

Thermal conductivity of ice = 2.2 W/(m K) (approx)
which is about twice as conductive as glass.
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Old 23-01-2017, 04:05   #43
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

Rich is busy running a business, so I understand that he probably doesn't visit this thread very often, particularly since he DID answer a question thusly:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Boren SV THIRD DAY
Do a search of the Forum because this topic/idea has pretty much been beat to death about once a year.

Bottom line....it won't make a real difference for you unless you have extra power available during the times to freeze down the jugs. You would be better off to just add a sheet of PolyIso foam to the inside walls or even 1 or two of the walls.
To which I - being a certified old fart and slow learner, asked:

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Thanks, Rich,

So, practically speaking, I should empty the 9 or 10 OJ 57oz jugs and forget about it? Or put them back empty?

They do (I put them in a cooler) accelerate recovery during defrosting, I think, but that may be the only benefit I can see for us.
So, how sayeth the peanut gallery?

Right now, that's all that's in our freezer, we being tied to the dock doing energy-related stuff, but we'll be cruising again, some time reasonably soon, and if empty ones serve equally, or none at all is even better, I'd like to not have to deal with these.

On the other hand, if having all that sort-of-stored cold, when I defrost, ready to give a great big kickstart to bringing it all back down again (ambient box temp under 32F), I'd just leave it; the box is bigger than we currently use...

L8R

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Old 23-01-2017, 08:33   #44
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

"Guess what! Put a steak and jug of water in the same freezer, one cold enough to freeze the steak (and based on the quoted assumption, clearly the water) the temperature of both will wind up the same. So there is plenty of cold in the water, and the mass is probably greater too (water =~8 lbs/gal). There are other specifics to be considered, but the water will assist in keeping the steak at or below freezing longer than if the steak were alone at the same temperature."

OK, we need more "facts" to ponder. Let us assume they, the steak and the water filled jug, are in the freezer long enough to reach the same temperature through and through. [If anyone still thinks this is not a possible scenario, because the frozen water jug will warmer inside, please return to your textbook.] Turn off there power (no more cooling). 1/Assume the jug disappears, how long will it take the steak to thaw alone? 2/Assume the steak disappears, how long will it take the ice in the jug to melt? Assume both the steak and the jug remain in place, how long will it take the steak to thaw? Exact answers not needed. Just relative time, fastest to slowest. If you are correct, enjoy your steak, if not, enjoy your steak just as much, but avoid some jobs.
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Old 23-01-2017, 08:59   #45
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Re: Jugs of ice in the freezer?

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"Guess what! Put a steak and jug of water in the same freezer, one cold enough to freeze the steak (and based on the quoted assumption, clearly the water) the temperature of both will wind up the same. So there is plenty of cold in the water, and the mass is probably greater too (water =~8 lbs/gal). There are other specifics to be considered, but the water will assist in keeping the steak at or below freezing longer than if the steak were alone at the same temperature."

OK, we need more "facts" to ponder. Let us assume they, the steak and the water filled jug, are in the freezer long enough to reach the same temperature through and through. [If anyone still thinks this is not a possible scenario, because the frozen water jug will warmer inside, please return to your textbook.] Turn off there power (no more cooling). 1/Assume the jug disappears, how long will it take the steak to thaw alone? 2/Assume the steak disappears, how long will it take the ice in the jug to melt? Assume both the steak and the jug remain in place, how long will it take the steak to thaw? Exact answers not needed. Just relative time, fastest to slowest. If you are correct, enjoy your steak, if not, enjoy your steak just as much, but avoid some jobs.
A jug of water will freeze and thaw at about 0 degrees C (slightly less if not distilled water). Steak or any other animal tissue has an ionic content equal to about half strength sea water which means its freezing point is depressed about 1 degree C. If it's a meat that has been cured with extra salt or nitrate (like bacon or Ham) its freezing/thawing point will be depressed even further to perhaps -2 degrees C. Assuming one freezes both to -10 C, both will be frozen. If the compressor is turned off and the temperature rises the cured meats will thaw first, followed by the steaks, and when those are thoroughly thawed the temperature will start rising again until the ice finally starts to melt. The meat in your freezer will help keep your water frozen, but the water will not keep the meat frozen. It will however keep it cold.

My freezer has two sections, the first is inside of a typical evaporator and the second is a spillover area below it. We store our ice in the second section along with cheese, bacon, ham, and cured meats like kielbasa and they never freeze, though the ice cubes stay completely solid and never show any signs of melting.
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