Induction vs Gas Cooking

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's a function of latitude. If I hung my laundry to dry it would come out green with mold.

Accepted. Do you know the old (very old) trick of hanging dry bed sheets between lines of damp clothes? It helps the laundry dry faster. Probably not tenable even on a large boat like yours.

You are helping my retention of the fact that yours is a very electrically intensive boat. At this rate I’ll probably remember.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Sure you can; just add the odd-powered battery charger. Inverter/charger on home voltage; battery charger alone on strange voltage

You could do that. You’d need appropriate shore power inlets or extra switching to route shore power. I like the separate charger and inverter(s) where the charger can digest nearly anything and charge batteries while you live entirely off the inverter(s) which produce whatever flavor of power is to your preference. Remember I raised this in the context of a new build and presumed Webasto dual-frequency aircon; I think Webasto are the only people who make such. For the French 6 amp power sources you’d have to stay on top of your battery monitor so you don’t fall behind.

One could do with a world charger from shore power, an inverter/charger from the generator with a second inverter ganged to it but wouldn’t get the boost. That just moves the power switching downstream to choose between shore and shipboard power for the aircon. Regardless power management for light shore power.

Does Victron or Mastervolt make an inverter/charger that runs 100-250VAC and 50/60 Hz and also has power boost? Just thinking through the issues I suspect not.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What pump is that? This is awesome commonality, which greatly simplifies spares. Do tell.

*sigh* I forget. It’s been years since I really looked at them. They just work. I’ll check the next time I’m on the boat.

No macerator pump (other than the base of the electric toilet) – holding tank gravity dumps. No gray water tankage or pump. A manual bilge pump of some vintage I don’t recall. Also two Rule 3700 big bilge pumps in addition to the smaller ones for usual service.

Honda makes (or did at one time) a physically small gasoline powered pump I gave thought to for some time for trash/dewatering/fire but never talked myself into. I carry gasoline anyway for dinghy.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So we're talking about diets now?

I found cutting way back on salt exposed a lot taste.

I have a good sized Engel freezer under my aft (master) berth. When the main freezer gets low we shift all the contents of the Engel into the main freezer and shut off the Engel. That has been a range extender for us.

Originally Posted by Pete7

The only time we really ran into trouble was using Camping Gaz, a French Butane tank system and expensive.

Just for the record, propane and butane are both LPG. In most places, what we buy as butane is a mix of butane and propane dominated by butane and vice-versa for what we buy as propane. No jet changes, no regulator changes. The minor chemistry difference is that freezing point of butane is high enough that in Northern latitudes you can have trouble generating enough gas to keep the cooker going.

CNG of course requires rejetting. How much trouble that is depends on the cooker. Some are more trouble than others. As Dockhead noted earlier in this thread CNG is not available everywhere. You can get it in dense urban areas at least in the US where it is often used for buses and other public transportation. Not convenient at all. Very high pressure so more frequent tank inspections.

[Auspicious]

Another "just for the record" and for completeness another technically available method for voltage/frequency transformation is a motor generator. This is an electrical motor geared to an electrical generator. For 117VAC 60 Hz you gear down to 230VAC 50 Hz. For the other direction you gear up. The units are large, heavy, and noisy and not practical on a recreational boat. A company where I worked powered our test lab from a rather large one, 100 kW I think, so we could test equipment bound overseas.

Scintillating cocktail party conversation topic.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Another "just for the record" and for completeness another technically available method for voltage/frequency transformation is a motor generator. This is an electrical motor geared to an electrical generator. For 117VAC 60 Hz you gear down to 230VAC 50 Hz. For the other direction you gear up. The units are large, heavy, and noisy and not practical on a recreational boat. A company where I worked powered our test lab from a rather large one, 100 kW I think, so we could test equipment bound overseas.

Scintillating cocktail party conversation topic.

If I had this issue, I would deal with it in a much simpler way. I would just leave my system configured exactly the way it is, and I would simply add a 120 amp separate battery charger with its own shore power inlet for the 220/110 60hz power. And that's it.



Like that you just pour DC power into your batteries and take it out with the existing inverter and run the boat off that. Just like being off grid and using your own autonomy, except that you've got power coming into the batteries all the time. Just continue life inside my 230v/50hz bubble.



I would use one of those Victron battery charger which allows you to limit the current taken by the charger to suit the particular shore power connection. This would be just about essential.



Only drawback of this KISS solution is if you need more than the approximately 3kW you would be getting that way. For example, if you need to do electrical heating off the strange power. In that case, I would probably just create a mini separate AC system and add a few separate outlets for the strange power. I've seen boats configured like that and it would not be a big job, especially since I have a whole free row on my AC distribution panel. 3kW is a bit less than the 3.6kW you get off a 16 amp European connection, but it's enough if you're not heating and if you're managing the loads with some care, at least on my boat.



OR possibly step up the voltage via my Victron isolation transformer, and run just the existing sockets directly from that, bypassing the transfer switch and inverter/charger, but leaving the other circuits hooked up via the inverter to keep the washing machine and microwave happy with 50hz.


I don't think this needs to be a big problem. I know one boat (Noelex and Seaworthy Lass's) which doesn't have a shore power connection -- AT ALL. Flaunting their autonomy!

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If I had this issue, I would deal with it in a much simpler way. I would just leave my system configured exactly the way it is, and I would simply add a 120 amp separate battery charger with its own shore power inlet for the 220/110 60hz power. And that's it.

That's one of the options we both offered up.

50 A power is common in the US as well as 30 A. You can even find 100 A power in some places. 50 A and 100 A is at 240 VAC.

[s/v Jedi]

Here is our AC schematic that allows any setup by just throwing a switch or breaker. There are two tricks: a breaker feeding power to an inverter/charger means it starts charging batteries, as well as pass that power through... but you can elect not to use that but instead select the other inverter/charger that has it’s input breaker switched -off- and thus is inverting... at the voltage and frequency you want.

For US boats the second trick is to use 240V 60Hz all the way down to last leg of distribution and put an auto transformer there which creates a new neutral for 120-0-120 service to outlets etc. You need to buy the European 230/50 versions of the Victron Multiplus as these can be set to 240/60 in settings

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

That's one of the options we both offered up.

50 A power is common in the US as well as 30 A. You can even find 100 A power in some places. 50 A and 100 A is at 240 VAC.

Is it really? I spent decades cruising U.S. waters but it's been a long time ago and I can't remember the power. We had a 30A Marinco connector & massive unwieldy cable which I hated handling (it was one of my jobs as a tyke).



Do you normally get at least 30A or is there sometimes less? Are the pulpits all the Marinco twist type?


What about the Caribbean?


One thing I might conceivably do on this boat is a wide Atlantic Circuit, so these are not entirely idle curiosity questions. Spend the winter in the Caribbean, go see my father in Florida, cruise the East Coast, then Newfoundland, SW Greenland, Iceland, and then back to Europe the way I know. I wonder how that will be without air conditioning on my boat which doesn't really have hot climate type of ventilation. I remember brutal heat in S. Carolina in the summer.

[Seaworthy Lass]

I think the main consideration is whether or not you have sufficient electrical capacity to handle all the cooking. If so, it is a no brainer from my point of view (sorry Auspicious ). As Dockhead pointed out, it is not a choice between gas and electricity on board. It is electricity or electricity AND gas, and if there is a failure of electrical power supply you have a massively bigger problem on your hands than lack of cooking.

I am big on redundancy, but this could be provided for cooking by having a second or even third induction hotplate (they are inexpensive and small), using the hotplate of a diesel heater such as a Refleks, and even keeping a small camping gas bottle with a removable small burner (we had the latter in the gas locker on our old boat).

Using an induction hotplate is the bees knees. I started using an one for the first time just a year ago, and I love the greater control and also the timing function. I usually only use the lower two settings, but have had pots of soup and casseroles with pulses simmering for an hour or two powered by our 1000 watt solar array from April to October above 55°N. We are simply throwing energy away in those months. In the remaining months I use the Refleks hotplate.

So the only issue is an oven. This takes dramatically more energy to power electrically, but it is something you can actually do without. Previously our gas oven was used nightly. I have now learned to “bake” on a frypan and our gas has been turned off for the last six months. I have found I need to be flexible when cruising and not expect everything to function just as it does at home. An oven is simply not essential, and that comment comes from a super keen cook.

A gorgeous GN Espace is sitting unused, but for me the hassle of replacing/refilling gas bottles when cruising purely at anchor, usually in remote spots, by far outweighs the need to use an oven.

So thumbs up for induction here. .

SWL

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Is it really? I spent decades cruising U.S. waters but it's been a long time ago and I can't remember the power. We had a 30A Marinco connector & massive unwieldy cable which I hated handling (it was one of my jobs as a tyke).



Do you normally get at least 30A or is there sometimes less? Are the pulpits all the Marinco twist type?


What about the Caribbean?


One thing I might conceivably do on this boat is a wide Atlantic Circuit, so these are not entirely idle curiosity questions. Spend the winter in the Caribbean, go see my father in Florida, cruise the East Coast, then Newfoundland, SW Greenland, Iceland, and then back to Europe the way I know. I wonder how that will be without air conditioning on my boat which doesn't really have hot climate type of ventilation. I remember brutal heat in S. Carolina in the summer.

In the northeast US you'll typically find either 30A / 125V Marinco twist-locks or 50A 125/250V twist locks. Occasionally an older 50A / 125V twist lock. A few places will only have 15 or 20 amp (120v) straight blade house plugs, but that's fairly uncommon.

Personally, I carry adapters to connect to any of the above (my boat has twin 50A / 125V inlets, so it's either a Y adapter to a 50A 125/250 or a pair of pigtails to twin 30A and then from there to 15A if needed and I can power both legs of the panel off 1 cord if needed). If I'm on a really limiting shore power connection for whatever reason I'll typically plan my power usage to just fire up the generator for a bit for any big loads and then use shore power mostly for battery charging and maybe hot water or a single A/C unit depending on needs and available power.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

. . . If I'm on a really limiting shore power connection for whatever reason I'll typically plan my power usage to just fire up the generator for a bit for any big loads and then use shore power mostly for battery charging and maybe hot water or a single A/C unit depending on needs and available power.

Yep. Same here. Up here in some of the small harbours we get connections as small as 6 amps; I think I've even seen 4 amps.


It's not really such a problem if you have a current-limiting charger with power boost, and especially if you have a good generator.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

. . . Using an induction hotplate is the bees knees. I started using an one for the first time just a year ago, and I love the greater control and also the timing function. I usually only use the lower two settings, but have had pots of soup and casseroles with pulses simmering for an hour or two powered by our 1000 watt solar array from April to October above 55°N. . . . .So thumbs up for induction here. .

I now have both gas and induction and was using both today.


I am amazed all over again almost every time I compare induction to some other cooking method how good it is. On high it is much much hotter much faster, and on low much lower and with perfect control -- the ideal way to simmer something. The gas fire is a really blunt instrument in comparison. That's reason enough to use it forgetting about all the other advantages.


Now the question for me is how to implement it permanently. Auspicious pointed out a really big drawback, fatal one I think, of a home-type glass topped permanently installed induction cooktop -- breaking the glass.



I see two possible ways to solve this:


1. Do like SWL and Noelex did their refrigeration, and instead of permanently installing something, use portable units which slide into a gimballed cabinet. Keep spare drop-in units. There are two-burner portable units which look good.



2. Find a commercial type metal topped one, if such a thing exists. $$$$$. I couldn't find a metal topped one, but this one: https://www.caterkwik.co.uk/cgi-bin/...21INDUCTIONHOB. has a 6mm thick Ceran ceramic-glass top -- that ought to be hella tough.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I now have both gas and induction and was using both today.


I am amazed all over again almost every time I compare induction to some other cooking method how good it is. On high it is much much hotter much faster, and on low much lower and with perfect control -- the ideal way to simmer something. The gas fire is a really blunt instrument in comparison. That's reason enough to use it forgetting about all the other advantages.


Now the question for me is how to implement it permanently. Auspicious pointed out a really big drawback, fatal one I think, of a home-type glass topped permanently installed induction cooktop -- breaking the glass.



I see two possible ways to solve this:


1. Do like SWL and Noelex did their refrigeration, and instead of permanently installing something, use portable units which slide into a gimballed cabinet. Keep spare drop-in units. There are two-burner portable units which look good.



2. Find a commercial type metal topped one, if such a thing exists. $$$$$. I couldn't find a metal topped one, but this one: https://www.caterkwik.co.uk/cgi-bin/...21INDUCTIONHOB. has a 6mm thick Ceran ceramic-glass top -- that ought to be hella tough.

The portable option is an excellent one on a cruising yacht. We don’t have a second portable fridge at the moment, but will put one in the workshop or lazarette before we cross the Atlantic. It could then double up (even better, triple up ) as spare refrigeration, extra refrigeration or as a freezer when needed.

I am not only a big fan of redundant systems, but of convenience as well. Delays in ports repairing systems is the bane of most cruisers. Sticking to the KISS principle and having backups (as well as spares for repairs) is a solid basis for hassle free cruising with no time wasted waiting for deliveries or tradesmen. Replacing these parts can then be done at leisure when convenient.

I see no huge advantage having a built in induction cooktop over a portable and easily replaceable one. You are not restricted by size constraints. Apart from a minor improvement aesthetically (and it is only minor) what is the appeal?

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The portable option is an excellent one on a cruising yacht. We don’t have a second portable fridge at the moment, but will put one in the workshop or lazarette before we cross the Atlantic. It could then double up (even better, triple up ) as spare refrigeration, extra refrigeration or as a freezer when needed.

I am not only a big fan of redundant systems, but of convenience as well. Delays in ports repairing systems is the bane of most cruisers. Sticking to the KISS principle and having backups (as well as spares for repairs) is a solid basis for hassle free cruising with no time wasted waiting for deliveries or tradesmen. Replacing these parts can then be done at leisure when convenient.

I see no huge advantage having a built in induction cooktop over a portable and easily replaceable one. You are not restricted by size constraints. Apart from a minor improvement aesthetically (and it is only minor) what is the appeal?

SWL

Hard to argue with that.


Any piece of equipment which is cheap, simple, readily available, and easily replaced, is a real boon. I give the example of school bus alternators vs. diesel generators.



So one could make a gimballed cabinet with a kind of tray to take a couple of NuWaves or something like that. Put an electric convection oven in the lower part.


Keep a couple of spare NuWaves in spares.



Totally bulletproof. One fritzes out or you smash it, just toss it and slide in a new one. Pick up a new one in the next port. $69.



Very appealing.


Did I mention how much I like your refrigeration, for all the same reasons? Are you still liking it as much as you did then?

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Did I mention how much I like your refrigeration, for all the same reasons? Are you still liking it as much as you did then?

Yes, it is brilliant! The small size makes everything in it easy to reach. Without a freezer attached there is no build up of ice or excess fluid accumulating. It has been dropped under a solid timber bench and a dyneema loop attached to the timber lid so that the fridge lid opens at the same time as the timber lid.

Not being meat eaters, little refrigeration is actually needed on board and I have not been hankering after a freezer. So this system work extremely well for us.

We bought a high quality National Luna aluminium model, but a huge range of sizes will fit into the cavity (up to about double the capacity), so a drop in replacement should be fairly easy to source worldwide. We are not even constrained by timber lid size, the entire bench top unbolts.

SWL

PS We have not been bothered by a lack of generator either, despite everyone’s concerns when we were initially specifying the new build. We have spent two winters at anchor now above 55° N, relying almost purely on our 1000w of solar. The batteries were occasionally topped up a little when we motored in and out of anchorages, but the engine’s alternator has not been needed much. We have chalked up only 178 engine hours after over two years of cruising and 40 of those was prior to delivery during commissioning.

I think it is important to accept though that cruisers’ needs vary dramatically. There are countless threads where people argue until they are blue in the face that only ‘x’ will work or that ‘y’ cannot possibly work. We are all unique individuals with different needs and budgets and there are more ways than one to skin a cat .

The fridge has been installed running port to starboard under the butterfly. Excess space is taken up with storage. Our stainless steel day water tank has been fitted under the fridge (it was designed to fill directly from a watermaker and then spill over into the main tanks) so the fridge is elevated:

[dannc]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...
So one could make a gimballed cabinet with a kind of tray to take a couple of NuWaves or something like that. Put an electric convection oven in the lower part.
...

When SV Delos replaced their lead acid batteries with LiFePo, they also took out the gas cook top and oven. They used induction for the cook top that was gimbaled. The oven was replaced with a regular household electric convection unit. It all seems to work for them.

Later,
Dan

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Here is our AC schematic

Worth noting the rotary switches that remove (as near as I can tell) the chances of cross connecting systems that can’t withstand that.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Is it really? I spent decades cruising U.S. waters but it's been a long time ago and I can't remember the power.

30A and 50A are everywhere. 30A is 117VAC. 50A 117VAC will be in any slip large enough for your boat. 100A is usually found only on docks that take really big boats (yours is not a really big boat). It’s a really large connector, expensive, and of limited utility for cruisers in our size range. You may note that there are 250A and 500A circuits in some places for the superyacht crowd that are hard connected (ring terminals). Lots of those guys just run load-balanced generators. Power boats in your size range often have twin 50A inlets. Those power cords are quite large and heavy.

I usually run two 30A inputs but I’m set up for a 50A to a splitter into two 30A inputs. That cable is heavy.

The Caribbean is much the same: 30/50/100 with the same distribution.

15A and 20A US domestic outlets are convenience outlets for tools and such. They are not intended for connecting to boat systems and marinas that look to their insurance cover will unplug you.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

One thing I might conceivably do on this boat is a wide Atlantic Circuit, so these are not entirely idle curiosity questions.

First round in Annapolis is on me. I make a very good Louisiana red beans and rice that does not suffer badly from the absence of Andouille sausage.

At the dock aircon is really welcome. With care, anchoring out is not bad although there are some sweltering nights. There are a couple of non-permanent solutions for that we can talk about as you get closer. Short version: portable office aircon vented through a port and/or units that drop over hatches and blow into the boat. You can buy them (maybe used) and sell them off before leaving.

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

if there is a failure of electrical power supply you have a massively bigger problem on your hands than lack of cooking.

Please see my illustrative story earlier in the thread. A complete loss of electrical is not the only problem. 92% of humanity worldwide are omnivores. What to do with all that raw meat? That was part of the provisioning plan.

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Using an induction hotplate is the bees knees.

And there reasonable people can disagree in the face of the same information. I think they are not very good – better than resistive heat but don’t measure up to gas. Doesn’t work well with woks. Doesn’t work with aluminum cookware. Doesn’t work well with stainless. Stainless clad aluminum is the gold standard in cooking. Cast iron only works if you preheat the bejeepers out of it because the thermal transfer is surprisingly poor. Thermal inertia is great but that means long preheat times (more energy).

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

So the only issue is an oven. This takes dramatically more energy to power electrically, but it is something you can actually do without.

So no roasts. Many casseroles off the table. Bread baking becomes more challenging. Can you even use an Omni on induction? Funny shaped bread.

I am firmly of the belief that cruising need not be camping and giving up truly first rate cooking and therefore first rate food is not a requirement for cruising.

Again and again, the advocates neglect gimballing. I’ve spent too much time on boats with fixed cooktops—mostly power boats and catamarans—with a huge impact on the cook (usually me). See above for usage from my empirical, non-scientific poll of oven usage.

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The portable option is an excellent one on a cruising yacht.

As I posted above I built in a portable Engel for supplemental freezer space. The energy consumption of my fixed fridge and freezer (one each) is a lot lower than the portable Engel. Just estimating (based on a quick look in our chest freezer) we store about 25% meat, 65% veg, and 10% breads in the freezer. We find freezer space generally more dear than fridge space. Some of that is because I lose track and store a lot of produce on the counter in baskets so I can use things before it turns.

Some people may find this of value: https://nchfp.uga.edu/how/freeze.html

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I see no huge advantage having a built in induction cooktop over a portable and easily replaceable one. You are not restricted by size constraints. Apart from a minor improvement aesthetically (and it is only minor) what is the appeal?

Gimbals.