How do you easily get your provisions aboard when at anchor?

[hpeer]

Jim,
Thanks for the explanation, much better than mine. Pretty boat.

But also a good example of why “boat length” is a poor comparative for size as compared with “displacement.”

But that’s for another thread.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

You're going to have to describe what you mean by symmetrical waterlines. I have seen some asymmetric hull designs on multihulls but never on a monohull. You get some asymmetry with heel and lift accordingly but from a waterline perspective I've not seen an asymmetric waterplane.

Dave, I'm referring to fore and aft asymmetry, not transverse. My impression is that the fine entry and relatively broad beam aft help damp pitch in the Sayer.

Jim

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Dave, I'm referring to fore and aft asymmetry, not transverse. My impression is that the fine entry and relatively broad beam aft help damp pitch in the Sayer.

Jim,

I see. Naval architects don't talk about symmetry around that axis. I was stuck in my paradigm. We do talk about LCB, LCF, pitch gyrradius, LCG, waterplane moment of inertia, and a number of other factors that together affect seakeeping in general and pitch in particular.

I'm not familiar with the Sayer so I'm making some assumptions based on the photo. The broad beam aft together with shallow buttocks means buoyancy aft increases fairly rapidly in pitch. That slows pitch magnitude. You probably get some wave slap in the aft cabin at night when at anchor. That bothers some people; I find it rather settling. That buoyancy aft means the boat can absorb extra weight aft - davits, dinghy, bigger engine, generator, batteries, perhaps tanks.

Fine sections forward don't have a big impact on pitch beyond second order affects from pretty much everything having an impact on just about everything else. It does mean she'll be more sensitive to weight forward. She'll handle seas really well as long as you don't overload the boat forward of the mast. Whatever tankage you might have up there should be drawn from first (Davism: too much fuel, too much water, and too much food are self correcting problems (tm)). Definitely HT anchor chain.

On the foundation of hull form weight distribution is key. Weight times the third (modulus) and fourth (inertia) power of distance from LCF gives numbers that drive pitch magnitude and period for any given forcing function (waves, swell). This is design and assessment material. The operational impact is that since your LCF is pretty far aft extra weight should go aft whenever you can. When you start getting growth on the transom you've gone to far and it is time for the boat to go on a diet.

Rocker per se, beyond the long flat buttocks aft, really isn't a factor.

I'll go out on a limb and speculate that your boat is really happy on a close reach, makes good time in a sea, wallows a bit downwind, and probably doesn't roll much with the wind forward of a broad reach. She probably powers up pretty well, depending on your sail suit. If you go offshore with a 100% jib(ish) you probably reef the main pretty far before touching the jib (I'm making an assumption about CE - it's hard to measure from the picture's perspective).

Since I'm engaging in such statements, you're wearing a blue shirt and Ann is wearing a yellow one. If you'd move just a little to your left I could see better. *grin*

If I'm even close to correct and if you haven't already break out the manual for your autopilot. Different settings will optimize heading excursion and power consumption. You'll want to slow down response to offset downwind and speed it up upwind.

How close did I get?

What sort of keel? Fin/bulb/Scheel?

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by Lasivian

I appreciate all the replies. I think a Sugar Scoop tail is on my "need" list at this point. Partly for loading things, and partly because I want to do a lot of swimming/fishing. If you want "water level access" it seems to be the way to go.

Thanks.

Yes, having had both a big stern entry was definitely on my “must have” list this time. Absolutely transforms walking on to and off the boat to either a pontoon or a dinghy, or swimming. Can’t imagine how I used to be bothered with that climbing up and down the side of the boat nonsense. My four year old can easily walk on to and off the boat unaided.

With regard to the theoretical waves coming on board, the point is rather that they disappear again just as quickly out of the back of the cockpit as there’s nothing to impede them. Rather amusingly, my boat has two cockpit drains (because EU regulations demand them, I guess), but it’s hardly likely any water will ever go down them since there’s a two foot wide gap at the stern the water simply piles out of.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Tillsbury

Rather amusingly, my boat has two cockpit drains (because EU regulations demand them, I guess), but it’s hardly likely any water will ever go down them since there’s a two foot wide gap at the stern the water simply piles out of.

If the weather is bad, you're wet, or there is too much traffic to duck below you can pee into them.

That said, there is no man in the world whose aim is anywhere near as good as he thinks it is, especially with a moving target.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Jim,

I see. Naval architects don't talk about symmetry around that axis. I was stuck in my paradigm. We do talk about LCB, LCF, pitch gyrradius, LCG, waterplane moment of inertia, and a number of other factors that together affect seakeeping in general and pitch in particular.

I'm not familiar with the Sayer so I'm making some assumptions based on the photo. The broad beam aft together with shallow buttocks means buoyancy aft increases fairly rapidly in pitch. That slows pitch magnitude. You probably get some wave slap in the aft cabin at night when at anchor. That bothers some people; I find it rather settling. That buoyancy aft means the boat can absorb extra weight aft - davits, dinghy, bigger engine, generator, batteries, perhaps tanks.

Fine sections forward don't have a big impact on pitch beyond second order affects from pretty much everything having an impact on just about everything else. It does mean she'll be more sensitive to weight forward. She'll handle seas really well as long as you don't overload the boat forward of the mast. Whatever tankage you might have up there should be drawn from first (Davism: too much fuel, too much water, and too much food are self correcting problems (tm)). Definitely HT anchor chain.

On the foundation of hull form weight distribution is key. Weight times the third (modulus) and fourth (inertia) power of distance from LCF gives numbers that drive pitch magnitude and period for any given forcing function (waves, swell). This is design and assessment material. The operational impact is that since your LCF is pretty far aft extra weight should go aft whenever you can. When you start getting growth on the transom you've gone to far and it is time for the boat to go on a diet.

Rocker per se, beyond the long flat buttocks aft, really isn't a factor.

I'll go out on a limb and speculate that your boat is really happy on a close reach, makes good time in a sea, wallows a bit downwind, and probably doesn't roll much with the wind forward of a broad reach. She probably powers up pretty well, depending on your sail suit. If you go offshore with a 100% jib(ish) you probably reef the main pretty far before touching the jib (I'm making an assumption about CE - it's hard to measure from the picture's perspective).

Since I'm engaging in such statements, you're wearing a blue shirt and Ann is wearing a yellow one. If you'd move just a little to your left I could see better. *grin*

If I'm even close to correct and if you haven't already break out the manual for your autopilot. Different settings will optimize heading excursion and power consumption. You'll want to slow down response to offset downwind and speed it up upwind.

How close did I get?

What sort of keel? Fin/bulb/Scheel?

Dang, Dave, I just hate it when someone who really knows something shows me how little I really know at all! Thanks for all those observations.

A few comments:

We do try fairly hard to keep the bow light... no tankage forward of the mast, sail locker has mostly light stuff in it (spinnaker, storm jib, fenders, etc) but we do carry 280' of 10 mm chain and a 60 lb anchor on the roller. The engine is well forward, and over the keel, tankage is all below the cabin sole and cockpit, with some fuel in the keel shell, often empty. Launch weight (dry and no sails n board) was allegedly 9 1/2 tonnes. Our cruising stuff (all our worldly possessions) likely brings our displacement up to around 12+ tonnes. There's a fair bit of weight in the lazarette (spare anchors and chain, etc) and the working fuel tanks (240L) are just in front of said laz. Water tanks (800 L) are over the keel, under the sole.

Your guesses are pretty spot on: loves to close reach, goes to windward quite well, and does pretty well at deep angles, including DDW with a poled out genoa and main as far out as our spreaders allow... and doesn't roll nearly as much as our old IOR boat did!! Is very happy under a big masthead kite, but we don't seem to fly it as much as we used to.

I'm appending a pic showing the side view for your info. The keel is a steel shell with 4 tonnes of lead at the very bottom. Not a bulb, but the weight is down pretty low (2.2 m draft). And she stands on the keel without fore and aft props, a nice touch for drying out on a grid, and for slipping (though slip operators usually don't believe me).

Our working foresail is a fractional 120 % genoa, and the Solent is a non-overlapping blade, %90%. We will carry the full main and genoa up to ~20 kts AWS, then switch to the Solent and then start reefing (going to weather) the main. If there is a lot of short tacking involved we'll put the first reef in so that the runners can remain set, and switch to the Solent to avoid
having to roll up the genoa for tacks. Underpowered, but good for lazy old farts!
Not everybody's cuppa tea, but she's done us well for nearly 70,000 miles and 17 years now and we love her.

Again, thanks for the interesting comments.

Jim

PS I can't really tell what color shirts we are wearing due to being really rugged up down here in the frozen south!

[daletournier]

Very nice looking boat Jim.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Dang, Dave, I just hate it when someone who really knows something shows me how little I really know at all! Thanks for all those observations.

*grin* Well I did go to college for this stuff. Free ride and a stipend. It would be embarrassing if I was TOO far off.

While there are ways to mitigate it's silly not to have anchor and chain ready to go. That just means, as you have done, keeping other weight out of the bow.

My personal tendency would be to keep the keel tank pressed up and draw from that last. This will make the boat stiffer (roll a bit faster but less, less heel). You know your boat and yourselves so that might not work well for you. If you can transfer fuel, I'd pump fuel from the keel to aft tanks before heading to a fuel dock so it doesn't get old. YMMV.

The greater detail all sounds good and is consistent with your reported small pitch.

I didn't mention before that to my eye she is a pretty boat. Sayer did a good job.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Our working foresail is a fractional 120 % genoa, and the Solent is a non-overlapping blade, %90%. We will carry the full main and genoa up to ~20 kts AWS, then switch to the Solent and then start reefing (going to weather) the main. If there is a lot of short tacking involved we'll put the first reef in so that the runners can remain set, and switch to the Solent to avoid
having to roll up the genoa for tacks. Underpowered, but good for lazy old farts!

For about ten years I've been reefing on average rudder angle instead of wind speed on monohulls. First I'll try to balance the boat better with trim and then reef. Getting the average rudder angle down reduces resistance so sometimes we'll go faster and more on our feet. On catamarans I haven't found anything better than manufacturer/sailmaker guidance for reefing on wind speed.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

PS I can't really tell what color shirts we are wearing due to being really rugged up down here in the frozen south!

*grin* I took a shot.

[Jim Cate]

Thanks to all for the kind words about Insatiable II. Ann and I think she demonstrates what can result when bean counters are not much involved in design and execution decisions, and a talented shipwright and a talented designer collaborate on building a one-off yacht.

Lucky us for finding her, and perpetual thanks to Jon Sayer and Gary McAulay for creating her.

Jim

[RobPatterson]

Tie up alongside at the boarding gate. Lift packages through gate, onto deck. Works best in calm water and two people. My deck is at chest level when standing in the dinghy.

[Peeew]

Snatch block on the boom for heavy stuff when solo. Tie it up and haul to boom then swing it to deck.

[Happ]

The last cruising boat I sailed had a sugar scoop stern. That made it real easy to put the bags on the steps and climb onboard. I used the davits to stabilize the dinghy.

On occasions the water was rough as others have described I would off load from a beam directly to the deck. What we found a great help was a piece of material eas hung from the deck to the top of the lifeline. As the boxes, packages or groceries were place on deck we would slide them behind the material. This prevented things from falling overboard from the rocking of the boat.

S others have said the heavy stuff is simply pulled up on a halyard. All these things are simple and get simpler as you get your sea legs. Don’t over think this.

[wingssail]

Our boat has flush deck and high freeboard (nearly 4'). The transom does not have a sugar scoop or cut out and the wind vane occupies whatever space there is, plus the stern rises and falls with very much wave action so it would not be a good place for us to load or unload.

Most all of our groceries and provisions are in cloth bags with strong handles. We've rarely (almost never) used any jerry cans for water or fuel but if we do we use technique #2 below.

1. Normally we bring the dingy alongside aft of mid-ships (near the cockpit) and bags are lifted by one person in the dingy and the second person on deck where they can be shifted away from the edge. We often tie the dingy fore and aft so it does not slide away just as we are pushing a heavy bag onto the deck.

2. For heavier items we bring the dingy along side next to the mast and tie it fore and aft. A spin halyard (left clipped on the lifelines for this purpose) is lowered to the person in the dingy who clips it onto the bag or other item and guides it up as the 2nd person uses the halyard to do the lifting. Usually just standing by the mast and pulling the halyard tail down by hand is enough for grocery bags, water bottles, etc. For the heaviest items, including the dingy, motor, or both together, (and a pallet of batteries, for example) the halyard is winched up.

We're often anchored in places with significant swell so rolling and pitching is a problem to be dealt with. Timing of the lift is important, particularly with the motor, you don't want to dunk it during a roll. We really miss the bullet-proof anchorages from back home (or like the Port Davey, Tazzie, spot shown in Cate's photo)

[J. Greg]

Cargo Davit. Garhauer makes a great one. They customized one for me that allowed me to lift my disabled wife from the dingy 6 1/2 feet over the stern rail and set her in a deck chair. Provisions are a piece of cake.

[Phonse]

A platform is easiest, an oversized Top step N your transom ladder or a DeBoarding step
A Propos Marine
Apropos has a number of off the shelf and custom solutions to getting on and off boats.