Has the all-electric galley come of age?

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by ZULU40

Lots of reasons your boats equipment either wont be appropriate or legal

liquefied natural gas, LNG
liquefied petroleum gas, LPG
compressed natural gas CNG

regulations
by country or nationality
by state or province

availability
according to local logistics
in some cases depending on supervising political persuasion
ie Solomons US, Cook Is NZ, Tahiti Fr for example

Agreed. Butane and propane are both LPG.


Connectors can be managed.

[Capt. Ray]

I have had both propane cooking and my present boat (an 97' sailing ketch) is all electric which used to run off a 20kW generator but I saw the light and installed a nice little Predator gas generator which is at least 5 times more efficient when running a couple of rings to cook.

I will consider the idea of an induction cooktop but doubt that even a large solar panel farm will produce enough for a one-hour cook time on an electric stove at say 3kW for 2 rings, let alone an oven. BUT BUT - - propane is a problem for a world cruising yacht and I've been places where I could not refill my tanks then there is the problem of Propane versus butane which means converting the stove, whereas diesel is universal. It's all a matter of what fuel one wants to burn at the end of the day, and when burning diesel in a generator one is also charging batteries at a high rate and providing power to the entire ship. Trade-offs.

If I had a huge solar panel farm and massive battery bank, I may keep the galley all electric but that's down to brutal cash...

Originally Posted by Jammer

10 years ago there was really no practical possibility of running a galley solely on electric power on a smaller sailboat. The motor trawlers had them because they always had an engine running.

Times have changed. Battery and inverter systems have come down in price, solar has dropped considerably in price, and installation practices are better understood.

I have always had gas stoves in my house and prefer them for cooking.

But the tradeoff seems like a good one aboard because of the costs, space, complexity, and fuel availability problems with propane. Ditching the entire propane system leaves space/weight for additional batteries if needed.

Are we there yet?

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Agreed. Butane and propane are both LPG.

Connectors can be managed.

Not quite this simple
propane C3H8.
natural gas CH4
butane C4H10
CNG I have no idea


they operate at different pressures have different calorific values and some (by law) must have an oderiser so that leaks can be detected

Across the States (Au) regulations differ as to how systems can be alarmed fused and or switched and who can do the work. In my own state a gas fitter must do the work and provide a certificate. He must ensure that the system cut off works and the electrical connections are fit for purpose. That would have cost me the better part of $400 so the lot went over the side.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Capt. Ray

BUT BUT - - propane is a problem for a world cruising yacht and I've been places where I could not refill my tanks then there is the problem of Propane versus butane which means converting the stove, whereas diesel is universal.

Originally Posted by ZULU40

Not quite this simple
propane C3H8.
natural gas CH4
butane C4H10
CNG I have no idea

they operate at different pressures have different calorific values and some (by law) must have an oderiser so that leaks can be detected

We seem to sail on different planets. You don't have to make any changes between propane and butane. Both are LPG and both use the same jets. Pressure is compatible. If you sail in high latitudes you have to pay attention to propane/butane ratios as butane doesn't outgas as well at low temperatures. Otherwise it doesn't make any difference.



If you have trouble getting LPG anywhere in the world you are doing something wrong. If you don't complain about a bus ride for provisions why are you stressed about a propane fill?



LPG/butane/propane is easy everywhere. CNG is a challenge in the US and a nightmare ROTW. LNG is for the big boys and not for small boats.

[Jammer]

Propane and butane are not the same. Butane requires the air shutters to be open more. For the same orifice size and pressure, butane produces more BTUs. A burner that is properly jetted and adjusted for propane will overfire and burn rich with butane resulting in carbon buildup and excessive production of carbon monoxide. A burner that is properly jetted and adjusted for butane will burn lean and not as hot as it should, and cause corrosion and early failure of the burner components.

It is true that LP gas sold in the USA contains some butane with the amount varying regionally. Any one gas supplier will typically use the same blend for all deliveries and make sure the appliances they serve are set up for the blend they use.


In the area where I live, LP gas is nearly 100% propane, because butane will not vaporize reliably in the winter here. I would guess that there might be 5% butane in a typical fill.

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

We seem to sail on different planets. You don't have to make any changes between propane and butane. Both are LPG and both use the same jets. Pressure is compatible. If you sail in high latitudes you have to pay attention to propane/butane ratios as butane doesn't outgas as well at low temperatures. Otherwise it doesn't make any difference.

In the United States and Australia, LPG is made up of liquid propane, but this is not true in all countries. In some places, a mixture of butane and propane or other hydrocarbons are labeled LPG as well. We already did this.

Even in countries where LPG is propane, it can be dangerous to use it interchangeably with other forms of propane. LPG vaporizes readily at temperatures above -44 degrees Fahrenheit and is often used for storage of propane vapor. However, using liquid propane directly in machinery that requires the flow of propane vapor is dangerous and can cause damage to the machine or fires.

Ok so what did we learn. The planets are the same but there are different authorities on it. The fuels are not of a universal composition, the chemical constituents differ and it can be dangerous to assume they are all the same and there isnt a problem running any of them.

Together with this, French territory prefer to run butane as they do in EU, except Vanuatu who I think have moved to LPG. NZ and her Pacific territories on the other hand use CNG.

This aside from being in contravention of local laws and what that might cost you, If you think you do ok arguing with the USCG ok, I would rewrite the plan for arguing with French authorities who hate before theyve even seen you you anyway. And any of this is rendering your insurance nil when you blow the boat up.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

What you need is a vacuum insulated pressure cooker with hot plate inside.

link please?

[Capt. Ray]

Gas tank adaptors (to get a refill) ar not always available, many places have no idea what you're talking about when world cruising. Butane and Propane are NOT the same, all the burners on the BBQ, stove and oven MUST be replaced when switching between the two. Having gone from France to the Caribbean then the USA I have gone through it more than once. CNG is pretty much obsolete these days unless you're already stuck with it - I have converted from CNG to Propane, thought I'd solved all my cooking problems, then sailed to Central America and struggled to get refills!

I am interested in the concept that induction stoves take less energy and produce less ambient heat - in a boat without air conditioning that could make a difference.

Another post discusses rice cookers, I have been using one more and more frequently not just for rice but also steaming vegetables and cooking stews, it's amazing how fast they are compared with pots and pans and are reasonably insulated. I have been looking seriously into 5-in-1 pressure cookers that will minimize battery or generator use even more, they are quite simply amazing and definitely on my shopping list. You can roast, steam, broil, cook rice, make bread etc. etc. in a single appliance and warm up stews for late night watches quickly and cheaply. With a 5-in-1 I reckon I can pretty much get away from a cooktop unless producing complicated meals for a lot of people.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Agreed. Butane and propane are both LPG.


Connectors can be managed.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

What you need is a vacuum insulated pressure cooker with hot plate inside. This uses a fraction of the power of conventional electric.

I made a less efficient version without vacuum insulation, and it can cook a meal in 40 minutes drawing 6 amps which is not a problem from solar, or even old batteries.

As for solar power. Why not use a solar oven? This is far more efficient than using panels. I have a parabolic mirror that can cook with the same power as an alcohol stove. I don't have to wait for it, only need 20 minutes of sun and quinoa is done. It can also distill 1-2 cups of water per hour, and it's a dish-network dish, so not very big.

I find your posts insightful and your lifestyle fascinating.


In the absence of commercially available vacuum insulated pressure cookers with integral heating elements, I shall explore other alternatives. I have experimented with solar ovens and have not found that I am able to produce consistent, high-quality results with them.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Jammer

But the tradeoff seems like a good one aboard because of the costs, space, complexity, and fuel availability problems with propane. Ditching the entire propane system leaves space/weight for additional batteries if needed.

Are we there yet?

It depends. There is cost, space, and complexity associated with a high current electrical galley, and in a marine environment all that electrical equipment onboard exposes you to corrosion failures, potential short circuits, and other issues. Electrical fires on boats seem to be more common than propane explosions. It really means that changing from propane is simply a trade of one set of problems for another. I guess it comes down to a choice for the owner.

In our case we've found propane to be reliable and simple. We cook with it and heat domestic water with it (hot showers, always). We like to BBQ and the same propane system which goes to our stove also goes to the BBQ. We haven't been to Europe but otherwise we've always been able to find propane but sometimes it has required some creativity. It has always been cheap (propane is a very cheap fuel). We have not had any dangerous propane leaks or fires.

Thinking about providing 2000-3000watts from a 12 volt battery source, unless I've got it wrong, seems like it would take over 200 amps. Holy cow, that is more than my engine starting draw and my windlass draw together! I think you'd need a very robust battery and solar system or a good sized gen-set. This is not a more simple system than a propane system.

We have a very simple boat with 260 watts of solar and no gen set. I don't want the weight and/or another engine to keep running. I don't want a flight-deck sized solar array or a dozen additional batteries.

So, I think that unless you have a pretty big boat, with a gen set, and all the installed equipment, propane seems a better way to go. And if you want a simple boat, and want to spend less hours keeping it all going, skip the complexity of the high current electrical galley.

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by Capt. Ray

Gas tank adaptors (to get a refill) ar not always available, many places have no idea what you're talking about when world cruising. Butane and Propane are NOT the same, all the burners on the BBQ, stove and oven MUST be replaced when switching between the two. Having gone from France to the Caribbean then the USA I have gone through it more than once. CNG is pretty much obsolete these days unless you're already stuck with it - I have converted from CNG to Propane, thought I'd solved all my cooking problems, then sailed to Central America and struggled to get refills!

Really.. I have no idea what kind of equipment people are running that stove and oven MUST be replaced... Thats just pure ********..

We have gone from Cuba (straight butane) to the USA (probably a butane propane mix in southern USA) to the Caribbean (mixture of both). We have run the same stove and oven (and jets) in all those places with ZERO problems. The pots don't get black, it cooks exactly the same. Down here we switch back and forth regularly. So does pretty much ALL our buddy boats.

[john61ct]

Why is a thread about all-electric kitchens getting into the weeds about international LPG fittings?

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by arcwi

We have Whirlpool's JetChef on board, we use it for everything - including to fry fish in the crisping pan - that is when we are not making pizzas.

I did some googling, looks like a very versatile cooker.

But not available stateside, shipping costs more than the unit 8-(

[Jammer]

Here is a list of the various propane/butane/LPG connectors in use worldwide.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propan...ve_connections


In reality, five or six connector types will see you through, but that's bad enough. Here's a kit for your consideration:


Cylinder Adaptors

[ZULU40]

Originally Posted by travellerw

Really.. I have no idea what kind of equipment people are running that stove and oven MUST be replaced... Thats just pure ********..

What they do is adapt burners and mixers, not the whole thing
These gases are, depending on where you are, different and in some places you will run into problems. Places which are euro centric will run threads common to their motherland (I think French are UNEF). Chemical constituents of fuels more or less the same unless they acquire fuel regionally in bulk.

Originally Posted by travellerw

We have gone from Cuba (straight butane) to the USA (probably a butane propane mix in southern USA) to the Caribbean (mixture of both). We have run the same stove and oven (and jets) in all those places with ZERO problems. The pots don't get black, it cooks exactly the same. Down here we switch back and forth regularly. So does pretty much ALL our buddy boats.

It probably IS the same
and according to my guides also true of central America