A Really Good Galley Design

[Wavewacker]

Thanks Teknav, that's what I was talking about, where the return of the U kicks out slightly, making more room without blocking the gangway, the Catalina has a good design I like that as well. Thanks again.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Wavewacker

As usual, good advice David, for newbies thinking of refurbishing a boat!

That was written with one eye on your other thread, but also was about simply accepting that you will have less than perfection in the Galley (and most everything else!) of any boat you buy. On a 30 foot boat you will always get a sink, a cooker and never enough storage or work surfaces ....plusses and minuses to every layout.

I certainly would not make the perfect galley the be all and end all of a boat purchase.

[Wavewacker]

Yes, and thank you for keeping up with the big picture, I appreciate your input. Any boat will have compromises, a 60'er will have more maintenance and expense than a 30'er, I've already lived with boat compromises with smaller boats.

Certainly the galley is not the most important consideration, if all things are equal or close to it, I'll go with the one with the better galley, but not likely things will ever be that equal......I'd go for the one with better rigging or loaded with electronics as I can modify a galley, I can't build a radar and buy new winches to get more counter space.

I really need refridgeration, not much of a choice for me, so long as there is space for one it will be good.

And, how many really use the grill hanging off the stern rail?

I use to grab the meat, bread, condiments from the ice chest below and go topside and make my sandwiches off the helm.

I plan to be living aboard and being able to prepare a decent meal is pretty important. I've cooked in a small tent during stroms sitting on the ground, that's survival in my book, not a normal day of the good life.

And, those who design those 30'ers do so based on market influences, not so much as a liveaboard at 30 or so feet, and why I asked about the best designs.

So far, seems Sumner has the mods on a production boat that have made a big difference. We are initially restricted to designs on production boats, how do we make them better?

[Wavewacker]

Sumner, if you're there, I see you built the top loading (?) fridge. Nice shop too but didn't see the type of insulation, what do you use? I found some fridge plates on ebay, no compressors yet, wondered if that's the way to go? As I mentioned, I was just palnning on using a small fridge, 110v, a cheapy and when it goes just get another one. Any opinion, since I don't see many doing that. The advantage I see is building it to the form and space existing rather than trying to put a box in that can be hear to fit in the galley area.

[tamicatana]

Wavewacker,

honestly, with a new (to you) boat, I'd bet there will be plenty of things you'll be dealing with, if my experience was any indication.

You might think about something that you like on the whole, and try living with what you get for awhile, before you make changes...

[Tony B]

Originally Posted by Wavewacker

.......I'm looking at boat listings, 30 to 36 feet or a really well laid out 27ish up...........

Unfortunately, not a whole lot of choices in a boat of that size range.
Most Galleys are near the companionway because this area is usually the most stable as far as you and the food being thrown around. I'm sure there are also other reasons, like 'where else can it fit?', great ventillation, etc.

[Sumner]

Originally Posted by Wavewacker

Sumner, ..... didn't see the type of insulation, what do you use? I found some fridge plates on ebay, no compressors yet, wondered if that's the way to go? As I mentioned, I was just palnning on using a small fridge, 110v, a cheapy and when it goes just get another one. Any opinion, since I don't see many doing that. The advantage I see is building it to the form and space existing rather than trying to put a box in that can be hear to fit in the galley area.

The insulation used came from the local lumberyard and has a R-5 rating per inch. It is Owens Corning’s FOAMULAR® extruded polystyrene rigid insulation. ....



....It can be used in applications such as below ground against concrete walls. I held some under water in the shop for a number of days and it didn't seem to absorb any water. There are other products out there with slightly better R ratings, but I didn't feel they were worth the expense or trouble in finding to warrant their use. If someone doesn't have the space that this insulation takes up they may be worth looking into.

We took out a front-loader 12/110 volt fridge since we generate all of our own electricity on the water and wanted the most effecient fridge we could have. I feel that the dorm type fridges just don't have enough insulation to make them really efficient and I don't see an easy way to add it the way they are built. We get by with our EdgeStar portable with the one boat. It uses 30-40 amp/hrs a day, but this fridge is larger and has a small freezer and I feel that it uses 1/2 the power or less than what the portable does. There again the portable doesn't have that much insulation and you can't add to it. If it ever goes belly-up I'll make one for the other boat also.

We probably have $1000 total in this fridge. It seems like a lot, but the portables are over $600 for something smaller. Build a good one in and it can be very efficient and save you over time as you need less solar and don't have to run the diesel as much. Saving on fuel and wear and tear on the engine itself. We didn't want to get in the situation of running the diesel an hour or two every day.

I feel it is a very good investment for anyone that spends time on their boat. After having solar on the Mac and the portable fridge, knowing we didn't want to deal with ice, we factored in the price of the fridge and solar when we were boat hunting for a large boat,

Sum

[Wavewacker]

Thanks Sumner, I'd think adding insulation could be done to any fridge, might be wrong but the way I understand it is that the efficiency of any fridge has a lot to do with the ambient tempature. Adding insuation even on the outside should help and build a larger box for it and add to the door as well. Not sure how you'd work out a hinged door, it may be limited depending on the outer box. The small cheap fridges probably don't have much of a seal either.

Kinda hard to collect good deals on boat stuff when you haven't picked out the boat yet!

BTW, went to your sight to see your jeep on the water, lol, nice boat and the Endevor is really nice.

If I get to design a galley I'll be keeping the fridge away from the stove and near the sink as I'll try to drain condensation from the fridge, or spills that leak, into the gray tank.

I see too why most who remain in boating go through several boats as they adapt to cruising. Building a larger galley migh seem necessary but then you may find that the way you live doesn't require such a larg galley. Just like a house, I had one that had a huge kitchen and really it was wasted unused space to be heated and cooled, it became a collectors storage/display area.

How are the liveaboards using the galley, those who cruise? If you have large meals to prepare (I'm thinking grilled fish) you'd go outside. Does anyone take a portable stove, hot plate or grill? Storage for pots n pans, utensils, dishes, cups and all may take up more space than my clothes lockers.

[wingNwing]

Originally Posted by Wavewacker

How are the liveaboards using the galley, those who cruise? If you have large meals to prepare (I'm thinking grilled fish) you'd go outside. Does anyone take a portable stove, hot plate or grill? Storage for pots n pans, utensils, dishes, cups and all may take up more space than my clothes lockers.

Our grill hangs off the stern rail but it detaches; unfold its legs and bring it ashore for a beach party, for example. Like this: Kuuma | Grills

You are right, if you enjoy good meals, or like to experiment with locally available foods, your galley stuff may take up more space than your clothing (especially if you're cruising in warm locations where clothing needs are less )To save space with cookware, etc, nesting pots and pans like this: Fagor Cookware Set (Nesting) Yes, it's expensive, but storage space may be more valuable. Then, lots of collapsible silicone bowls and colander (from Target or other general purpose store). Be choosey about what you bring aboard, a good set of knives, a few wooden spoons and a spatula, you really don't need many of the highly specialized gizmos at cooking stores.

General cruiser etiquette is to bring your own cups and plates and flatware to potlucks, so no host is burdened by having to store service for 14.

[GaryMayo]

" the boat I'm luke warm on so far is only 8 or 81/2 in beam allowing it to be taken down the road."

" 30 to 36 feet or a really well laid out 27ish up. "

That makes a pretty short possibilities list.

You are not going to find many of the U Shaped amenities listed by members here on a trailerable sailboat. 8" beams don't have U shaped galleys, you could not walk around them.

L shaped is what you will be looking for.

The best easy to afford trailerable 30 to 32 foot sailboats I have found were made by Clipper Marine, designed by world famous William Crealock. These are 35 year old designs, but many are still around if you look.

A 30 is for sale here. www.clippermarine.org

Be sure to click the map link, some of these sailboats around all over the USA

I own two CM32's. Love them! Much heavier design than my MacGregor was, yet still trailerable.

[wingNwing]

Originally Posted by wingNwing

The layout from our galley photo above:

Oops, missed Cheech's question above, this is a CSY 33. Here's the galley - faces fore-and-aft, there's an opening forward-facing hatch just to the right of the range that scoops air in, and it exits just above the spice rack so excellent flow-through ventilation. Top-loading fridge and freezer just below the spice rack. Something I didn't expect to like as much as I do, a tip-out trash can under the fruit bowl, separates the heat-producing oven from the cold fridge/freezer. Before we moved aboard we had a kitchen design/remodel business. The contrast between the sprawling, elegant, (expensive!) kitchens we designed for others, and the maybe 4' x 5' space of our galley, was ironic. Even more amazing was that everything we need FITS in that space!

[Wavewacker]

Wingnut, nice boat and layout, you have the beam for that and the offset gangway makes it happen. Thanks for the tips, I'll take two fine exemples of china, silver flatware and crystal just in case I'm invited to the BBQ! (LOL) I thought I'd scrounge through the camping stuff, but while I have a lot of little stuff, another set of pans would probably be in order.

Gary, went to the site but could not find the details on the one for sale. Actually, it's unusual to navigate and perhaps I missed it, but I looked at several posts.

I ran the Voyage and the CM30 on the calculator, saw the CM30 was half the weight and much less in sail area.

I like an aft cabin! With a nice bimini it really increases living spaces. (Migh be good for storage and make a great dog house too, LOL).

I only found two on Yacht World, neither were close.

I see too that some have a straight galley and some L shaped, looks like plenty of room for food preperations.

I think I'd be a fan of cooking in the cockpit too, when moored.

[Sumner]

Originally Posted by Wavewacker

Thanks Sumner, I'd think adding insulation could be done to any fridge, might be wrong but the way I understand it is that the efficiency of any fridge has a lot to do with the ambient tempature. Adding insuation even on the outside should help and build a larger box for it and add to the door as well. Not sure how you'd work out a hinged door, it may be limited depending on the outer box. The small cheap fridges probably don't have much of a seal either....

I agree that you might be able to add some insulation to them, but the nice thing about a box you build is that the compressor is separate so you can insulate between it and the box. With a dorm type fridge you might be able to add some insulation to part of the back above the compressor and on the sides and top and maybe a little on the bottom. The most important insulation is on the bottom as normally if the compressor is under the fridge building heat and the cold air in the fridge drops that is where the biggest temperature differential is vs. a house where the insulation in the ceiling is the most important.

With the dorm fridge you probably don't have much insulation between the compressor unit and the inside of the box and it is usually located on the bottom or bottom back where it is more likely to contribute heat to the box.

So there is a lot of the box that you can't add insulation to because of where the compressor sits and that it needs air for cooling. Some units like our EdgeStar also say to have an air space by the outside walls and don't recommend trying to insulate them.

Then like you mentioned the door presents it own set of problems. How do you add insulation to the outside and also every time you open it a lot of cold air spills out of the fridge and if the door doesn't seal real well it might be leaking all of the time.

I don't think you are going to want to cruise without refrigeration and it can be the major use of electricity even if it is designed properly. Doing it right can sure cut down on the electricity that you have to put into the batteries somehow and those expenses that go on and on.

If you have the finances to pull into a slip most nights and recharge there that can help, but transient slips can be awful expensive. It doesn't take many nights to pay for solar and a good fridge if you are staying in marinas.

Off the subject, but Ruth and I could never afford to be taking 2-4 month vacations eating out and staying in motels, but once we pull out on the water it is actually cheaper than being home. I tend to look at the price of things in how many nights staying in a motel they represent. A good anchor like a Manson 35 lb. is about 4-5 nights. A fridge is about 8-9 nights.

So if our vacation expenses are driving for 4 days (2200 miles--we are further than you) with 3 nights in motels and then a couple months on the boat anchored out not spending money on the internet and then back home again they can be pretty cheap vacations. A lot of people will spend 5 to 8 K on a 2 week vacation and not think too much of if. That is $5000 to $8000 that could of gone into the boat to make it your vacation retreat.

We won't get all of the money back we've put in the boats but will have some great vacations that in retrospect didn't cost that much because we did put that money into them and made them useable .

Originally Posted by Wavewacker

....If I get to design a galley I'll be keeping the fridge away from the stove and near the sink as I'll try to drain condensation from the fridge, or spills that leak, into the gray tank....

I do have a drain tube on our fridge, but haven't had to use it. There has been no condensation on the outside or inside. I defrosted it but didn't have a problem then either, but do have a catch tray under..



Interior Mods page 5

...the freezer/evaporator,

Sum

[Wavewacker]

Thanks Sumner for posting a better soultion. An apartment fridge/freezer isn't the best route for a sailboat I agree.

Good point about the power consumption on the hook and mooring costs paying for the difference.

I have seen some cold plates on ebay. I see several options using one (or several). I see you used an existing fridge/freezer box (I think).

Houseboat galleys seem to be kitchens using the same fridges you'dfind in a home, try getting an upright through a hatch on a smaller sailboat! LOL

Nice aluminum welding too, I don't weld.

I don't know what they use in the military now, but in the old days the mess hall would bring hot and cold meals out to the field in "mermac cans" (not sure I spelled that right) but heavy inuslated containers with clip closures and heavy gaskets. They were top loading and meals were served out of the container. I can see one or more than one being adapted as a fridge box. You can get them at most Army surplus stores. Just an idea.

Speaking of more than one being used....

As food is depleted and empty space in a frdige leads to inefficiency I think most "out there" put water jugs or other stuff inside to take up space keeping the fridge/freezer full. Now I wonder if smaller compartments would work each having a valve to close off a small section to save energy. I'm not a refrigeration guy either but seems smaller compartments could run off the same compressor system. You could then use that space for non-refigerated items and conserve energy. (?) If that were possible and an advantage for some, you'd need to design the system with the design of the galley. This may be overkill too.

Really, since I don't weld or solder very well nor do I have a welder I'm probably stuck with what is offered in the market.

I have considered the portable fridge and put it on a slide, a drawer track system. Many of the boats I see have the aft quarter berth near the galley and that space could be incorporated into the galley set up. In some there is a settee forward of the berth and the fridge could slide out over the seating area and back when seating was required. BTW, the slides have locks. they are designed for RVer's.

[Sumner]

Originally Posted by Wavewacker

..I see several options using one (or several). I see you used an existing fridge/freezer box (I think)............ This may be overkill too...........I have considered the portable fridge and put it on a slide, a drawer track system. ...........

The cold plates are the 'evaporators' and you buy them and yes they can look like the freezer sections in the fridge when we were kids but they also come in flat ones. It just depends what you are trying to do....

Defender.com Search Results: evaporators

All of those compartments would be overkill and hard to insulate and cool the same with the sliding drawers though people do use them, but some people have dedicated gen-sets also and live pretty much like at home or it is their home. I don't think you are going to see those on 30-40 foot boats though if you are looking for max efficiency.

You don't need to weld to build a fridge, just some minor carpentry skills and a couple wrenches to attach the fittings,

Sum