What's wrong with liveaboard sailing schools?

[captain58sailin]

You pick up your experience where ever, the platform matters not, what you take from it does.

[goboatingnow]

Very different situation than someone whose first time on a sailboat is to spend one week in the BVI getting all the certifications required to charter a boat without necessarily getting the experience to be a confident and competent skipper.

Have you been to the BVI ( or parts of the med) " confident " oh sure all over the place. " competent" youre kidding me right !!. its nothing to do with sail training schools believe you me.

[rockDAWG]

Originally Posted by ErBrown

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject but I'm curious to hear what y'all think. What are the negatives in this approach? Why is their such a stigma associated with it here on CF? Is there another route you'd recommend and if so, why?

Thanks,
EB

By reading your post, I know that you are a sensible man with a common sense and intelligence. You are far ahead of many newbies who came here with zero sailing time and want to buy a blue water boat (whatever it means). On the opposite side of the spectrum, there are plenty of sailors with boat that never leave the dock more than 30 miles from shore. They spend most of time motoring because they don't sail in the windy day.

Just ignore the Naysayers, go sailing as much as you can with other captains or boat owners. Be humble, be respectful (it is their boat), be a team player, work hard for them, be observant, and learn. It is amazing how much you can learn from the good as well as the bad captains. You can sail many different boats before you can settle with the one you like. The best part is it costs a little or free. If you have the time, it is very sustainable.

Good luck

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes but the RYA Examiners, are not tied to the course and have no problem with people with hands on experience, and they are thrones that give you the ticket. Instructors ( well bad ones) like to teach an orderly course, often have several different levels of ability and learning speed on board and can testy with a " smart-aleck" if you see my drift.

Its the exam that counts not the course, ( you actually don't even need to do a course )

dave

LOLOL... I didn't complete the course..
I told the instructor in Weymouth to go swivel and sailed back to Poole.
I then contacted an Examiner I knew there and did the Practical and Theory (verbal) solo in and around Poole and the bay.. with the instructor sitting in the cockpit throwing questions and setting my tasks as we went.. so much more fun,

[goboatingnow]

I find it hard to give credence to people that look down the nose at "book learning" so to speak. In practice its very hard to fully learn the "art of sailing" without some professional help. ( and that includes book learning) Thats because building a diverse level of quality experience is actually quite difficult to do. Sailing an ocean won't do it, racing won't do it. Crewing won't do it either. Masters at sea have to be examined, no reason you shouldn't.

Sail training is an " experience" a diverse one too. Sailing on deliveries is a "diverse" one, as is racing, cruising, etc, All together they add up to a better sailor. Each one on its own may make you competent in that subject, together they make you great.

its not either or, its "and" as in Classes "and" diverse experience make a great sailor.

dave

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by boatman61

LOLOL... I didn't complete the course..
I told the instructor in Weymouth to go swivel and sailed back to Poole.
I then contacted an Examiner I knew there and did the Practical and Theory (verbal) solo in and around Poole and the bay.. with the instructor sitting in the cockpit throwing questions and setting my tasks as we went.. so much more fun,

why would someone like you do a course anyway, not needed, thats the whole thinking behind the Senior RYA certifications, The YM and Coastal Certs actually existed before anyone dreamed up " courses" and they were aimed at knowledgeable yachtsmen on their own boats, just like you.

dave

[Tingum]

I think you are on the right track. Learning requires both book and practical experience. That said experience is all that really counts and the more diverse the better, both as to sailing locals and vessel types. I am still learning and picking up new tricks from others after holding a Masters license for 38 years.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

why would someone like you do a course anyway, not needed, thats the whole thinking behind the Senior RYA certifications, The YM and Coastal Certs actually existed before anyone dreamed up " courses" and they were aimed at knowledgeable yachtsmen on their own boats, just like you.

dave

Awwwwww... Your soooooooo sweet....

[goboatingnow]

hat said experience is all that really counts

you think that you can do say celestial navigation, secondary tidal height calculations, or even course to steer simply by experience, you have to be in effect " taught them " , whether in a structured classroom or on a weather deck of a boat , doesn't really matter,

dave

[ShaktisBoy]

This is exactly what we have started offering our charter guest. Live aboard cruises are a great way to test the waters and see if cruising and living aboard is something that suits you and your significant other before you drop a huge chunk of money into the endeavor. I think even more value is to be gained when you come armed with questions that aren't necessarily about sailing the boat but related to boat choices pro and con and the systems that support the boat. I love it when a guest ask why did you chose this dinghy, or why that water maker. Another thing we like to do is have the charterer do allot of the decision making i.e. where are we going to anchor? Which route should we take? What are the tides and current doing etc? If anything breaks we like to have them help effect a repair , or decide whether or not the equipment is essential. All of these things come into play out in the real world so if you can get that experience before acquiring a boat all the better. One last thing I will say and goboatingnow alluded to it. If the area you you’re your live aboard cruise in has mostly deep water with predictable trade winds blowing, moorings all over the place and maintenance just a click of the mike away like say the “BVI’s” then I don’t think you are doing yourself any great service, While that’s allot of fun it doesn't really prepare you for cruising in less populated places where service areas can be few and far between. It won’t really prepare you to learn to read the water in a shallow water passage, or how to really look at a chart and understand how to turn all those lines and contour’s into useful information that could get you out of a jam if need be.

[jeepbluetj]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

you think that you can do say celestial navigation, secondary tidal height calculations, or even course to steer simply by experience, you have to be in effect " taught them " , whether in a structured classroom or on a weather deck of a boat , doesn't really matter,
dave

This thread and the "failed the test" thread have got me thinking a bit about education...

Sure, experience isn't going to give you everything. I'm pretty clueless, and have a definitive non-bluewater boat, but even if I did I don't think I'll ever take a celestial navigation course. Methinks we've moved on from there a bit. Sure, I may have a cheapie sextant and a book somewhere in the boat if I had a real cruising boat and wanted to prepare for every possible failure of the dozen GPSs that would be on board, but if I need it I'd have some time to work it out. Yea, I know, real sailors don't use GPS, but it's so wonderfully convenient and it works when its cloudy. Heck, where I sail all I need to do is head east till I see land. Then I can figgure out where I am

CTS? I guess if one had no algebra or geometry background you'd need to be taught it, but it's a simple vector operation. And it's definitely something you could learn from a book/internet. Same with tides, etc.. It's just not all that complex.

Nothing against education or anything - learn all you can. But I just don't see how navigation and piloting is all that hard. (Or how to properly use a VHF to reference another thread...)

I do see a great value in a one-week course that is combination vacation and experience though. As the OP said, they've got a catalina 22, so I'm guessing they could identify the tack from the clew.

My ASA 101-103 that I took ~20 years ago taught me very little. Mostly how to back-and-fill, which is what I wanted to learn as I learned to sail on an outboard powered boat. Just for giggles I took the online USsailing tests yesterday. Passed em (barely) as I just don't have all kinds of stuff they ask memorized. Some of what is not even pertinent (IMHO) to safe operation of a vessel. They had tons of questions of like "You have 250sq feet of sail...what is the force on the winch handle to trim the sail?" That's not a practical question.

[SV THIRD DAY]

Originally Posted by ErBrown

Anyway, that's my thoughts on the subject but I'm curious to hear what y'all think. What are the negatives in this approach? Why is their such a stigma associated with it here on CF? Is there another route you'd recommend and if so, why?

Frist background:
Inflatables since collage for SCUBA, to a Macgregor 26, to a Pearson 365, to our current boat a Hudson Force 50.
Cast off for 4 years of full time cruising in Mexico with wife, and two kids
Returned to states and now continue to live aboard while kids finish high school, so we can get back to Mexico. (oh and I can't spell worth a crap)

Ok, with that little summary here's some advice in no particular order.

1.
First you need to completely and I mean completely forget about what people think, say, feel, post or whisper about the approach you take getting out cruising. There are as many ways to get out cruising as there are boats. Any of those different ways that actually get you out there rather than the 95% of dreamers that never make it is a Winner! Your friends and family will call you nuts, the chat room experts will call you nuts if you don’t have the “right boat, right gear, or right plan” so you have to learn to filter out information.

2.
Don’t waste your money chartering thinking that the charter experience for a week, two or even 3 will matter. Save that money for the boat or gear. All that trip will do for you will be a vacation and that money could be nice to have later for gear, which will cost a LOT more than you think.

3.
The experts will absolutely HATE this…but here we go. Cruising is SO MUCH EASIER than everyone wants non-cruisers to think it is! That way we get to be special for having done it or are doing it, honestly, we SO over-prepped both our boat and ourselves that I laugh not at all the wasted time worrying and planning and buying we did before we cast off. We saw plenty of couples with zip-zero-nada experience fly to Mexico buy a boat and bingo…they are cruising and learned the ropes at they went. This idea that you need years of training and experience to go Island hopping is a myth. Now please use some common sense here, don’t jump on a boat and head off that afternoon on a circumnavigation, but honestly, the vast majority of the cruisers out there wouldn’t pass the ASA tests, especially on anchoring…ha ah ah …but that’s another story.

4.
IF you want to learn about cruising, start reading some good Cruising Blogs and put down the glossy cruising world and sail magazines! Cruising Blogs are where you will find real everyday people writing about what it is really like out cruising. I’m just a self-described “Cruising Bozo”, but here is a link to our blog early in our cruise: What Happens in a Cruising Boat's Galley | SV THIRD DAY
Maybe my style isn’t for you, but there are hundreds, no thousands of blogs out there, so make part of you learning experience being reading cruising blogs.

5.
Set your computer home page to www.Yachtworld.com and start looking. The fear of buying the wrong boat kills ways too many dreams. We did our 4 yr cruise on two different boats about 2 years on each, a 36ft-er and a 50ft-er, going from one of the smallest in the anchorage to one of the biggest. And you know what…we had just as much fun on BOTH of them! That boat doesn’t matter as much and way too many people get trapped into the “Gotta have the perfect boat game”, then just getting out there. Your boat isn’t like a car where it’s a status symbol game. Sure we all turn our heads at the nicest boat in the anchorage to admire it, but the cruising community is different than “real life”. No one really judges you or cares what car you drive or size of your house or your zip code. And if you are like our family and many cruisers we talked to about their boat, it wasn’t the boat at all…it was the anchorage, or beach, or bay that we were floating in that mattered.

6.
See No 1, about the dangers of taking advice from armchair cruisers on chat rooms.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Ive never met anyone that does believe they are [a fully-competent captain after one week of classes].

And yet there are sailing schools out there that tell you that you will be.

[Hoofsmit]

Originally Posted by boatman61

One thing I picked up in my RYA classes for 'Papers to go Foreign' was... learn it 'Parrot Fashion'... instructors don't like smart asses with hands on experience giving alternatives.. it disturbs their equilibrium..

Very true. I controlled gybed in my exam in 8 knots of wind on a man overboard under sail and picked up the casualty ( fender ) in a simple 180, was told that I passed through winging it rather than following procedure but he felt I made a good decision, probably why he made me do another later in the exam in 18 knots where I did the classic figure 8 , which again worked spot on.
We had a great examiner who made us hove to when 1500 hrs came , because we said we normally stop for tea at three ( Brits !) this examiner sailed the north passage in a small cat,
I have every respect for these guys because on the two exams I crewed on , both examiners took over when a task set was completed but maybe not as smoothly as it could, and showed us how it could be done ( although they shouldn't have done according to the mca exam criteria ) which taught us all another skill

[OldFrog75]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Have you been to the BVI ( or parts of the med) " confident " oh sure all over the place. " competent" youre kidding me right

No I haven't. I'm just a daytime coastal cruiser and beer can racer. I haven't even sailed to Mexico yet let alone the places members of CF talk about.

Besides, I've watched movies and thar be rocks, reefs, and beasties in those foreign waters waiting to swallow a boat and novice seaman whole.