WE'RE RACING!!!!!!

[Happ]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Boaters shouting about “ rights” hmm uncommon , not

I was very amused by both these comments. I think you will enjoy this one. True story. I was a member of the same yacht club as Jim Kilroy. Jim was the owner of 5 Maxi’s in the 80’s and 90’s. A Maxi is around 80’ with a crew around 22. When the tank testing was completed on Kioloa 5 he was asked what they should do with the model? He said stick a mast on it and let’s sail it. Years later Jim was sailing the boat in a Wednesday night race. He was on Starboard. I could clearly see a port starboard situation developing. As the 2 boats got within 6 or 7 boat lengths I heard Jim warn the other boat by saying “ Gentleman, starboard. Gentleman starboard.” That’s the way it was done back in the day.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If I meet a single boat on open waters well away from anyone else and you feel the need to run a collision course until the last second...you are purposely instigating. That would mean you likely had 10-15min to figure out my course and try and contact me via VHF if you thought it may be an issue. You are therefore simply a jerk.

Please clarify if you think I missed your point because you didn't appear to make it very well.

It really depends on what you consider a collision course? I'm comfortable on 40' boats, when racing, crossing transoms with 2~3 feet. I generally aim at the primaries to judge time and distance. It's easy to fall down the last 10' or so.

Cruising we've been within a couple three boat lengths of others and thought nothing of it.

Sailing through the Bahamas a couple years ago we're hailed by another sail boat. We were a couple miles apart and the AIS showed our closest point would be about a quarter mile. They wanted to know our intentions for the crossing. We recommended maintaining course and speed. Crossings are really about what you're comfortable with.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I think the problem is far too many racers take that aggression out on cruisers because they have decided "all sailors are secretly racing", hence a lot of people not happy with racers. They often say it as a joke but from what I've seen, many really believe it.

Think of it akin to someone drag racing on the street in front of your house and then getting mad at you when you tool along at the 30mph speed limit. Sure drag racing is very aggressive and at the track on a closed course, fine but in no way justifies their behavior when out with people not racing.

You really don't like racers do you?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Joli

It really depends on what you consider a collision course? I'm comfortable on 40' boats, when racing, crossing transoms with 2~3 feet. I generally aim at the primaries to judge time and distance. It's easy to fall down the last 10' or so.

Cruising we've been within a couple three boat lengths of others and thought nothing of it.

Sailing through the Bahamas a couple years ago we're hailed by another sail boat. We were a couple miles apart and the AIS showed our closest point would be about a quarter mile. They wanted to know our intentions for the crossing. We recommended maintaining course and speed. Crossings are really about what you're comfortable with.

If you see a boat on a collision course from 2-3 miles out and feel the need to run within a boat length or two of a non-race boat on open water, you are simply trying to intimidate them and are making a bad name for racers.

And as others have suggested, that intimidation could cause the other boat to make an erratic move when they think it's likely to be an incident while you are simply being a jerk.

The boat in your Bahamas example was following good seamanship. Sure, they were being careful but no harm in that. Far better than the alternative you suggest.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Joli

You really don't like racers do you?

I don't like the aggressive jerk racers...unfortunately, they make up a sizeable percentage or racers...just look at the folks trying to defend the aggressive behavior on this thread.

[wannago]

Originally Posted by boat driver

The thread is a collection of stories of the misconception of many sailboat racers-there is room for everyone- but when yacht clubs pass race courses through main ship channels the similar "Im a sailboat" or "I'm racing" happens, and when one looks down from a bridge wing and suggests "really?" it is all somewhat funny-
How many famous pictures depicting a spinnaker in the anchor are out there?

Making fun of the yacht club race crowd might be fun and all... But all the races I've been in the rule is that if you have a horn blasted at you from anything in the vessel separation lanes, or really commercial traffic anywhere, you're DQ'd.


Other recreational traffic... We'll dodge them if we have to, often doing so a little later than a lot of cruiser might be comfortable with, hoping they'll give us a little courtesy. And, we're probably going to come across their stern a lot closer than they'd expect for a little sail around the bay.



And there are often boats outside of a bunched up fleet. Sometimes, they are just slower, or started late, or blew a tack, or whatever and fell behind, knowing they can't suddenly be faster than the other boats in the same wind take a chance on the weather being a little different over there somewhere... Or, like most amateur yacht club races, there is such a difference in boats they're dependent on handicapping to maintain competitiveness between boats from 20 to 50 foot being in the same race class, during the race they are just so much different they don't bunch up (except at the start) even sailing nearly the exact same course.



I'd be really surprised to find many racers that didn't have a pretty decent understanding of COLREGs, most of their racing rules generally start on the same basis's (port tack giving way to starboard is usually the starting point for the rules), and if they're taking things seriously they would know their race rules quite well and how those are relevant to non racers.

[thomm225]

Most of the racers in our group (Beach Cats) were fairly young say 45 and under so there was usually still lots of Testosterone going unlike some of the geezers I see on monohulls headed out to the Wednesday Night Monohull Races here now.

So with us back then it didn't take much more than the tough competition that was already there to get some folks fired up.

The worst case I saw was a beach cat hull nearly sheered of just forward of the trampoline.

The rest of the spats were usually "discussed" later on the beach.

There may have been some red faces and a bit of yelling but nothing beyond that.

As far as interference from other sailboats that wondered onto the race course, that wasn't usually a problem as they were so slow you just darted past.

[Normanskier]

Originally Posted by boat driver

Hello, that is a local thing- If you are from Mystic does that apply also? It identifies your race participants for RC fleet responsibility, but it does not effect COLREGS.

You are absolutely correct. Flying the N flag doesn't preclude following the Colregs.
It's simply a way to try and please everyone.
Power boaters are the worst in those circumstances and it is my experience that most sailors try to give fellow sailors the best opportunity to do well. That certainly applies to bearing away. Coming about or jibing is another story.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If I meet a single boat on open waters well away from anyone else and you feel the need to run a collision course until the last second...you are purposely instigating. That would mean you likely had 10-15min to figure out my course and try and contact me via VHF if you thought it may be an issue. You are therefore simply a jerk.

Please clarify if you think I missed your point because you didn't appear to make it very well.

Talk about not making a point well. I really don't know what you're talking about?
I would never run a collision course to the last second, if I was the give way vessel. And if I was the stand on vessel I'd follow rule 17 insofar as that would be "running a collision course." I'm not sure how being the stand-on vessel standing-on is "instigating" anything. Nor do I understand how you could infer that I wouldn't use VHF or other measures to clarify a situation???

In case you haven't guessed it, I'm the guy who says "follow the Colregs, always!"

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by svfinlandia

NO. He is not the only one. I believe that there are a lot of us out there that just sail for the fun of sailing.
Yes, sometimes I am in more of a hurry and pay more attention to sail trim, etc. but most of the time I’m just out there on a lazy sail even if I’m on a coastal trip from the Chesapeake to Florida.

Al, S/V Finlandia

You don't care about sail trim on a 500-mile trip from Chesapeake to Fl???
I, sir, doubt your veracity.

[Dave Isom]

Notwithstanding all the rules that have been mentioned, the bottom line is that all vessels should AVOID A COLLISION ! If a vessel says they’re racing and you are not why not give them the benefit of the doubt and do the courteous thing and let them hold their course ?
You could get all aggro and call right of way but sailing , especially cruising is meant to be fun. I would say just give the thumbs up and let them pass and keep you , your crew and theirs happy .

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Actually, he shouldn't be yelling but sounding the horn signals or radio-ing to agree to a crossing if he would like to deviate from a standard crossing.

When a 1/4 mile apart, a simple, "hey there vessel XYZ, any chance I could have you bear off 20 deg. I realize, under normal circumstances I should but I'm racing and it would help me out not having to."

Done in a kind voice, I'm betting 99.9% of boats would oblige and the feelings toward sailboat racing would be much more positive.

Most Racing organizations would prohibit this. At least in all the racing I have been in, if a racing vessel fails to give way and forces a stand-on (which in world racing rules *IS* a right of way) vessel to give way, they are assessed a penalty of 2 turns.

Sail by the rule, the racers have to.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you see a boat on a collision course from 2-3 miles out and feel the need to run within a boat length or two of a non-race boat on open water, you are simply trying to intimidate them and are making a bad name for racers.

And as others have suggested, that intimidation could cause the other boat to make an erratic move when they think it's likely to be an incident while you are simply being a jerk.

The boat in your Bahamas example was following good seamanship. Sure, they were being careful but no harm in that. Far better than the alternative you suggest.

I guess the difference between us is I don't care if I close within a couple boat lengths of another boat "when I'm day sailing or cruising". I don't consider it rude or aggressive, well unless we're naked. : )

How close does someone have to come to you before you feel they're being rude? And will you alter course for separation?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Joli

I guess the difference between us is I don't care if I close within a couple boat lengths of another boat "when I'm day sailing or cruising". I don't consider it rude or aggressive.

How close does someone have to come to you before you feel they're being rude? And will you alter course fortseparation?

If you're sailing within a few boat lengths of me and it's not confined waters, I'd be sounding 5 short and likely would have turned to increase separation regardless of the situation. In a confined space, a few boat lengths is often reasonable. But if there's a mile or more of clear water around me in every direction, I'd consider that unacceptably close (except maybe in an overtaking scenario).

[Joli]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

If you're sailing within a few boat lengths of me and it's not confined waters, I'd be sounding 5 short and likely would have turned to increase separation regardless of the situation. In a confined space, a few boat lengths is often reasonable. But if there's a mile or more of clear water around me in every direction, I'd consider that unacceptably close (except maybe in an overtaking scenario).

Interesting. I wouldn't alter course to follow but wouldn't worry about a close crossing. How close is to close for you?