Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 24-11-2021, 15:20   #91
Moderator
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 11,429
Images: 58
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
On a Run from cork to the canaries we went well west of the rhumb line to avoid weather. Not a ship for two days. Then one afternoon a car carrier appeared to the west of us heading to Europe ( possibly to gib or Portugal ) plotting his course had we not adjusted course , would have resulted in either a near miss or a collision ! Not another vessel to be seen. I adjusted course to pass well astern. Sailboats and ships are like magnets imho.
I think you may be onto something I cross a shipping lane every time I head out and I have often wondered what REALLY are the chances of getting hit, even in crossing a shipping lane? I mean, what really are the chances you'll be in that 100 or 200 yard spread at the moment the bow of the behemoth shows up? (And actually I do know you don't have to be impaled to have a really bad day with a ship.) But I have had enough close calls (not closer than a half mile, when I was completely under control and watching the whole time!) that I wonder if there is something in the calculations of probability that I am missing..... then again, I haven't been hit....yet...
(tongue in cheek here, I do know crossing a shipping lane is a little different from the open ocean.)
__________________
DL
Pythagoras
1962 Columbia 29 MKI #37
Don C L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2021, 22:36   #92
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Seattle, Hawaii, Fiji, Guam
Boat: Catalina Morgan 45
Posts: 532
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Just to be pedantic one more time -- sigh -- there does not have to be an accident, for a violation of the COLREGS to occur. It is not legal to violate them so long as you don't actually end up in an accident.

ENFORCEMENT is a different matter. It's rare (but not unknown) for Rule 5 to be enforced in the absence of an accident.

Single handing is not illegal so long as you fulfill the requirements of Rule 5. Once you go below for a nap, you are in violation of Rule 5 and therefore of the COLREGS. It's unlikely you will be fined for that, however.

I agree that enforcement is a different matter. In international waters which country do you propose would enforce Rule 5 since in most cases nation states only have enforcement ability within 12 nm beyond territorial waters.

Can you give an example of a country that has enforced it's law/regulation associated with UN Convention COLREG Rule 5 that was not associated with an incident between 2 vessels? (For example in the US the person would be cited by the USCG/DHS under 33 CFR § 83.05.)

Also, I would also like to point out that a vast majority of sailors are regularly in violation of COLREGs (country laws) on a regular basis. For us to ignore these violations and focus only on single-handers violating rule 5 is the height of hypocrisy IMHO.

For example,

- Vessels that display more than 1 light at anchor are in violation of Rule 30.

- vessels that do not have a PA/Horn (or other sound device) and do not sound proper signals in restricted visibility are in violation of Rule 35.

- Sailboats that are motor sailing without displaying a downward conical day shape during daylight are in violation of Rule 25

- Boats at anchor that do not display a round ball during daylight are in violation of Rule 30

- Day shapes that have a circumference of less than .6 meters (approx. 2 feet) are in violation for COLREG ANNEX 1. (e.g. the Plastimo folding day shapes, and Nuova Rade day shapes are not valid day shapes)


I'm sure you're familiar with the 'glass house' idiom.
__________________
-----------------------------------------------
Quests Of Discovery
Discovery 15797 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2021, 23:03   #93
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 18,761
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
For example,

- Vessels that display more than 1 light at anchor are in violation of Rule 30.

Rule 30(a)(ii) says to have a second light nearer the stern and lower than the forward lightl
30 (c) says that you may use working or deck lights to illuminate the decks.

Thus, more than one light is not prohibited


- vessels that do not have a PA/Horn (or other sound device) and do not sound proper signals in restricted visibility are in violation of Rule 35.

- Sailboats that are motor sailing without displaying a downward conical day shape during daylight are in violation of Rule 25

- Boats at anchor that do not display a round ball during daylight are in violation of Rule 30

- Day shapes that have a circumference of less than .6 meters (approx. 2 feet) are in violation for COLREG ANNEX 1. (e.g. the Plastimo folding day shapes, and Nuova Rade day shapes are not valid day shapes)

Annex 1 (c) says that for vessels less than 20 meters in length shapes may be of lesser dimensions, commensurate with the length of the vessel.

If you are going to use the rules to make a point you ought to get them right.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, hanging out in Port Cygnet for a while... spring is finally here (I think).
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 02:05   #94
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Netherlands, Lemmer
Boat: Contest31HTac
Posts: 17
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
Originally Posted by owly View Post
This whole discussion about legality is getting tiresome........ Obviously single handers take all the precautions they can... probably more so than many crewed boats, and that is borne out by statistics I suspect.



Rules that are not enforced are mere words on a piece of paper. Everybody knows that a single hander cannot keep 24/7 watch, yet single handing is not only common place but accepted by the authorities in events, etc. Single handing is never going to result in catastrophic loss of life and property... A small sailboat crashing into a container ship is a catastrophe only for the sailboat, and of course it represents a major failure of watch on a ship that is generously crewed.



I would say that it is foolhardy to single hand without AIS. Personally, I like solitude, and the wilderness that is the ocean, and wouldn't have a problem with heaving to for a good night's sleep in the middle of the Pacific or Atlantic or Indian oceans... what's the hurry?



Of course most single handing is not ocean crossing, it's coastal hops, which ideally would last no more than a day. But that is the most dangerous of sailing, dodging sport and commercial fishermen, recreational boaters, and commercial shipping, and floating logs, rocks and shoals etc. 50 miles out to sea things settle down.

Enforcementof Rule 5 is very difficult nowadays. When a law enforcement ships comes nearer I am alerted by radar, Ais and the reguraly lookout every x minutes. So when they come nearer, I am keeping a lookout.


Bert
B_Wieberdink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 02:40   #95
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Florida
Boat: Etap 38i
Posts: 162
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

For those of you who have seen the NBJS videos, he has some sort of device mounted on his mast that visually identifies objects that are a coillision risk and alerts you when it does. I forget the name of it, but it isn't radar or AIS.
Cloroxbottle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 03:20   #96
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 9,713
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Probably way low on the priority as there aren't nearly as many boat or boating accidents compared to cars but there have been a few tentative attempts at automated driving for boats.

It would present some different challenges but certainly an automated watch system for large vessels would be possible even in fairly rough conditions (particularly if integrated with AIS.

I'm sure legally, it would be a gray area in terms of meeting colregs requirement for keeping a watch.

I could see a solar powered vessel where they are more passenger than crew.
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 05:55   #97
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Timmins, ON
Boat: CL14 #1179
Posts: 61
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
Originally Posted by owly View Post
As someone said in a recent post............ single handers will single hand.


That means that on a single hand long voyage there will not be the kind of watch people theoretically keep when they have a crew.......... There is probably a whole lot more snoozing going on during night watches than we care to admit. The rules are unenforceable.... largely due to a lack of will.... not to mention jurisdiction.


My original thesis that there could be ways to at least enhance watch keeping when you are in the cabin seems to have little appeal, but most folks here are not long distance single handers..... if any.



Boats like Black Feathers, Roger Taylor's Ming Ming II, and the various boats Sven Yervind and others of their ilk sail have at least some provision for a sheltered lookout in the form of a dome, or built up observation area.


My ideas of a mirror system or a camera system seem to have no takers at all.... And that's understandable. At the very least a windshield wiper would be necessary. Modern digital cameras take very little power, nor do LCD screens. I can see a 4 camera array at the masthead, or on a radar mast, that you can switch on in the cabin if you want. With cheap solar, and really impressive batteries we've come a long way in terms of power, and this would be trivial... particularly next to AIS and radar.



I'm one of those guys who would prefer that someone else pioneer things, but in this case there are no "takers".
I like this idea, cheap setup, low draw, I bet some sort of detection alarm could be setup when a ship or object other than waves crosses the screen.
Wilyum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 06:49   #98
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 15,769
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
On a Run from cork to the canaries we went well west of the rhumb line to avoid weather. Not a ship for two days. Then one afternoon a car carrier appeared to the west of us heading to Europe ( possibly to gib or Portugal ) plotting his course had we not adjusted course , would have resulted in either a near miss or a collision ! Not another vessel to be seen. I adjusted course to pass well astern. Sailboats and ships are like magnets imho.
My experience this applies to sailboats and other sailboats as well. Have twice had to change course to avoid a collision with another sailboat.

First time, many years go crossing the Caribbean, miles from any shipping lanes or common yacht routes in middle of the night we came within a boat length of a head on collision. The other boat had no lights and no one on watch. It was overcast and very dark and I barely saw a lighter area dead ahead that I finally identified as sails when we were just 40-50 meters apart.

The second just a couple of years ago just miles off the US coast. Watched a boat heading east as we headed south. Courses converged, we were give way so adjusted AP to pass astern and saw an empty cockpit with wind vane steering. If we had not been standing watch we would have collided.

Since there was no one on watch on either boat there was no way to tell if either was single handed or fully crewed. The point, sailing without standing watch, regardless of where in the ocean is like Russian roulette and to a great degree relies on the other guy standing a good watch.

Yes I understand that the odds of a collision far at sea are very small but it is not zero.

Regarding enforcement, the odds of enforcement likewise are very small but if a collision does occur then you can bet this will be a significant factor in the aftermath.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
Sometimes it's necessary to state the obvious for the benefit of the oblivious.
Rust is the poor man's Loctite.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 06:51   #99
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Between Caribbean and Canada
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 7,371
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

There used to be a device called a SeaMe which would detect a radar pulse and set off an alarm. So you knew when when were being scanned by a ship. Problem was mounting it so it would not react to your own radar.

It would he good for at night on the hook.

Perhaps a car radar detector would also work?
hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 07:32   #100
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 15,769
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
There used to be a device called a SeaMe which would detect a radar pulse and set off an alarm. So you knew when when were being scanned by a ship. Problem was mounting it so it would not react to your own radar.

It would he good for at night on the hook.

Perhaps a car radar detector would also work?
If you refer to police speed radar I believe they work on different frequencies. I did have a marine radar detector years ago that would indeed beep when it detected a radar pulse. Wasn't very expensive and didn't have a great range but it did work. Haven't seen or heard of one of these in years.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
Sometimes it's necessary to state the obvious for the benefit of the oblivious.
Rust is the poor man's Loctite.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 08:42   #101
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Between Caribbean and Canada
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 7,371
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

RE: Close Calls

I have had a couple.

In the first it was a beautiful clear, flat day. I had passed through a fishing fleet and was now alone. I went below to make a cup of tea. I heard a noise. It was a scalloper hauling back heard through the hull. I am in the habit of using kitchen timers ALWAYS. It was set to 30 mins (due good viz) and went off as I exited the companionway. I now set the timers to 15 minutes daylight.

Second was at night far. In the distance I saw a red light just at watch change. I woke my Wife and went below to take a leak thinking “I want to keep an eye on this guy.” and need to make myself comfortable. Before I got back on deck the AIS collision alarm went off as we passed within 100 yards. That boat had very small lights that were not visible at 2 miles, hence I botched my distance assumption, his stern light was not visible at just over 1-1/2 miles. Further he was running without AIS, he just flipped it on as we approached and turned it off again at 2 miles separation. Now keep a pee pot in the cockpit. I can only assume he was concerned about pirates so kept his AIS in listen only mode.
hpeer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 08:44   #102
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 16,671
Images: 3
Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
I disagree. I think the Irish are quite alone in addressing solo sailing specifically. Wherever it is addressed, most gov'ts seem to take a "see no evil, speak no evil" approach to the legality of solo sailing.


Note this is a marine notice, ie a notice to mariners , it’s not a legal text. This would have been issued by the authorities responsible for marine safety ( navigation notices and so forth ) The Irish COLRegs legislation has no mention of solo sailors.
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 09:08   #103
Registered User

Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 719
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
My experience this applies to sailboats and other sailboats as well. Have twice had to change course to avoid a collision with another sailboat.

First time, many years go crossing the Caribbean, miles from any shipping lanes or common yacht routes in middle of the night we came within a boat length of a head on collision. The other boat had no lights and no one on watch. It was overcast and very dark and I barely saw a lighter area dead ahead that I finally identified as sails when we were just 40-50 meters apart.

The second just a couple of years ago just miles off the US coast. Watched a boat heading east as we headed south. Courses converged, we were give way so adjusted AP to pass astern and saw an empty cockpit with wind vane steering. If we had not been standing watch we would have collided.

Since there was no one on watch on either boat there was no way to tell if either was single handed or fully crewed. The point, sailing without standing watch, regardless of where in the ocean is like Russian roulette and to a great degree relies on the other guy standing a good watch.

Yes I understand that the odds of a collision far at sea are very small but it is not zero.

Regarding enforcement, the odds of enforcement likewise are very small but if a collision does occur then you can bet this will be a significant factor in the aftermath.



With AIS there is no excuse for this today.... Unfortunately many sailboats have only an AIS receiver which does no good except with regard to ships.
owly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 09:28   #104
Registered User

Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 719
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipmac View Post
If you refer to police speed radar I believe they work on different frequencies. I did have a marine radar detector years ago that would indeed beep when it detected a radar pulse. Wasn't very expensive and didn't have a great range but it did work. Haven't seen or heard of one of these in years.



It would not be difficult to have a radar pulse generator or expensive. Many of us either cannot afford or justify a radar, and many choose not to have an AIS transmitter.... only a receiver. The limited range of radar makes a pulse generator a reasonable alternative if people have a receiver. A low budget setup that has a low power draw might make some sense.



With AIS transponders available in the $500 range, they are a no brainer as far as I'm concerned. And they should be required for single handing.
owly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2021, 10:06   #105
Senior Cruiser
 
skipmac's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: 29° 49.16’ N 82° 25.82’ W
Boat: Pearson 422
Posts: 15,769
Re: Watch Keeping Single Handing

Quote:
Originally Posted by owly View Post
With AIS there is no excuse for this today.... Unfortunately many sailboats have only an AIS receiver which does no good except with regard to ships.
Completely agree. Seems almost ridiculous to buy a receive only AIS. A transmitter/receiver is not that much more money. And for those worried about pirates or big brother (or CBP for those doing something less than legal) watching it's easy enough to turn off the transmitter when you want.
__________________
The water is always bluer on the other side of the ocean.
Sometimes it's necessary to state the obvious for the benefit of the oblivious.
Rust is the poor man's Loctite.
skipmac is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
single

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Setup for Single-Handing a Sloop boredinthecity Monohull Sailboats 35 25-11-2009 08:05
Woman Single-Handing to Mexico ? Jennymar Sailor Logs & Cruising Plans 38 26-08-2009 12:19
Single-Handing a Tayana 37 jcsaw Monohull Sailboats 2 12-07-2009 04:28
Advice on (gracefully) single-handing a selden imf? deano Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 3 19-01-2009 18:04
Single Handing Kai Nui General Sailing Forum 79 15-02-2007 13:49

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:00.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.