Using a Asymmetrical Chute Downwind?

[Bash]

Originally Posted by bazzer

I am intending to do a fairly long cruise before long, San Francisco to Cabo, not racing, so I need to figure out if my VMG is better running downwind or broad reaching. Not sure how to go about that, but as a ex cat sailer I just broad reached downwind, 'cause everyone else did and I even won one or two races. I hate the thought of broad reaching for a hundred miles and then getting a wind shift that makes it all a waste of time!

I missed this the first time I read it, but the trip from SF to Cabo is not going to involve much running at all. If you're lucky, the worst you'll ever see is a deep broad reach. I've spent most of my time around 135-140 degrees apparent during that trip, except maybe the stretch between Pt. Conception and Santa Barbara, where I had to throw in a few gibes.

Of course, I did it in a southerly once where I couldn't even use the chute. For some reason, however, I'm never that lucky on the trip home.

[kbudd]

Originally Posted by bazzer

I have a new cruising chute on my boat and I was wondering if anyone has used a asymmetrical spinnaker directly downwind, i.e. with a apparent wind between 140 degrees and 180 degrees. Obviously at these wind angles the main is going to blanket the spinnaker, but it looks like I might have a couple of options. The first being to take the main down, which is a pain when sailing directly downwind, the second is to use a pole on the spinnaker and hold it out to windward. Another third idea I have since I have a good Dutchman Boom Brake fitted is to run the main by the lee.
I would love to hear from someone who has actually done any of these options whilst actually sailing.
Thanks

I have an asymmetrical on my 43' ketch and I find that you are compromising a lot of performance for ease of use. Asymmetricals are fine for reaching downwind especially with light boats that can make better VMG than running dead down but on most cruising boats it is faster to go dead downwind and then you have to get the tack out to weather. I went to a symmetrical spinnaker with a pole and it is much easier to fly downwind. I personally think that running a standard spinnaker is not that much harder to set and much easier to keep trimmed when running deep.

[bazzer]

lots of useful information which I thank everyone for.
The Cruising chute is new to me and the boat, I've used a A chute many times but don't have one on the boat, still have the old spinnaker pole though. What I thought was a A chute when I purchased the boat last year turned out to be a gennaker which is hanked to the forestay along the luff.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by bazzer

What I thought was a A chute when I purchased the boat last year turned out to be a gennaker which is hanked to the forestay along the luff.

Woah. That's certainly not how I would define "gennaker."

My gennaker--which was built by North Sails, the company that first coined the name--has no hanks.

Maybe what you've got is some sort of a reacher/screecher? Can you describe the fabric and weight?

[bazzer]

Originally Posted by Bash

Woah. That's certainly not how I would define "gennaker."

My gennaker--which was built by North Sails, the company that first coined the name--has no hanks.

Maybe what you've got is some sort of a reacher/screecher? Can you describe the fabric and weight?

Not totally sure of it's size, since I have never had it up, but the material is probably 1.5 oz, but my boat is 34 feet and 26,000lbs, I don't think a screecher would be of much use!

[islandplanet]

While you can certainly pole out an assym to help with performance sailing deeper angles, the thing you need to look at is VMG (velocity made good). I've seen people both racing and cruising go through a lot of effort to sail DDW or nearly so, when sailing 10 or 15 degrees higher would get them to their destination (or mark) in less time, albeit with some jibes required. Most GPS's will tell you VMG.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by bazzer

AH HA, your talking about "ghosting" I might well raise a top mast in those conditions and rig some kind of Royal....
But seriously, a broach on a cruising boat is not fun at all.

Undeniably. As I've said, I've been in balls-out races when broaches, exploding spins and snapping pole rings have been fairly lurid reminders that Maybe We're Overdoing It. It's made me somewhat cautious about vast clouds of sail.

On our cutter rig steel boat, however, I haven't considered raising aloft a top mast, but I have considered a "raffee", a nearly forgotten triangular topsail that I recall has been successfully set to good effect from sloop masts.

W.I.B. Crealock apparently set great store by raffees, but coherent information that doesn't also contain salty talk about gaff rigs, brailing down and oath-muttering parrots is hard to source.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by kbudd

I have an asymmetrical on my 43' ketch and I find that you are compromising a lot of performance for ease of use. Asymmetricals are fine for reaching downwind especially with light boats that can make better VMG than running dead down but on most cruising boats it is faster to go dead downwind and then you have to get the tack out to weather. I went to a symmetrical spinnaker with a pole and it is much easier to fly downwind. I personally think that running a standard spinnaker is not that much harder to set and much easier to keep trimmed when running deep.

Of course, the standard practice until the as late as the 1980s was to have poled-out "twins": near identical foresails of modest size (like a couple of hanked-on No. 3s), as this was considered a safer way of getting in the neighbourhood of a spin's area with far more control.

World Cruising Club: ARC Feature

Variations on this (as opposed to wing-on-wing) would be with double slotted foils or on a cutter rig, poled out genoa and staysail. Same idea, more or less the same approach, although with the cutter, you would likely reduce the genoa to the same area as the staysail, as well as perhaps raising the staysail with a tack pendant to catch more air.

[bazzer]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

Undeniably. As I've said, I've been in balls-out races when broaches, exploding spins and snapping pole rings have been fairly lurid reminders that Maybe We're Overdoing It. It's made me somewhat cautious about vast clouds of sail.

On our cutter rig steel boat, however, I haven't considered raising aloft a top mast, but I have considered a "raffee", a nearly forgotten triangular topsail that I recall has been successfully set to good effect from sloop masts.

W.I.B. Crealock apparently set great store by raffees, but coherent information that doesn't also contain salty talk about gaff rigs, brailing down and oath-muttering parrots is hard to source.

Gotta google W.I.B Crealock to find out about raffees. I did have a oath-muttering green parrot, but since it swore imitating my ex wife, I left him with her, and good luck to the both of them.

[Surrymark]

I started using an asymmetrical last summer, and made a 12 mile leg with parts of it DDW, other parts only a few points off. Wind 15 to 18 kts. Flying asymmetrical and yawl mizzen, no main. Nice sleigh ride. Without a pole the chute fluttered at times, but a bit of jigging got it full again. The wind freshened near the harbor so I let the asymmetrical fly out front and quick gathered it in while Alix put the tiller over and headed up (the mizzen helps). Some of the chute got wet. Next year I hope to have a sock. I'm not real enthusiastic about using it in higher winds with the main. The blanketing bit in strong wind seems like more of a dance than I want. Advice? Listen to those who use this sail all the time. I'm just reporting on limited experience.

[S/V Alchemy]

It's pretty representative, in my view. They are great light-air, "typical summer conditions" sails, but they are not in any sense like having a crew of 8 to wrestle with a "heavy air spinnaker".

On the open ocean, due to the frequently presence of leftover swells and wave action even hours after the wind's dropped to assy spin friendly speeds, I think I would prefer to pole out a genny and rig preventer to go wing-on-wing. If conditions persisted favourable and the seas flattened, I would go for the cruising spi as discussed.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

It's pretty representative, in my view. They are great light-air, "typical summer conditions" sails, but they are not in any sense like having a crew of 8 to wrestle with a "heavy air spinnaker".

On the open ocean, due to the frequently presence of leftover swells and wave action even hours after the wind's dropped to assy spin friendly speeds, I think I would prefer to pole out a genny and rig preventer to go wing-on-wing. If conditions persisted favourable and the seas flattened, I would go for the cruising spi as discussed.

Wing on wing may be appropriate on a full keel bat. The wallowing tendency of a a fin keel boat would result in me going on a broad reach with a genoa.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Surrymark

I'm not real enthusiastic about using it in higher winds with the main. The blanketing bit in strong wind seems like more of a dance than I want.

I give my chute a LOT of respect since all there are normally on my boat is 2 fat out of shape sailors. As such I don't keep mine up if the wind is getting into the mid teens. But I personally can not ever see myself flying the chute without the main up. I consider the main as part of the "gear" for flying the chute as I use it to depower the chute wen letting it out and pulling in in (and I have a sock).

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I give my chute a LOT of respect since all there are normally on my boat is 2 fat out of shape sailors. As such I don't keep mine up if the wind is getting into the mid teens. But I personally can not ever see myself flying the chute without the main up. I consider the main as part of the "gear" for flying the chute as I use it to depower the chute wen letting it out and pulling in in (and I have a sock).

+1 (not to the fat, out shape but to the process)

Any white capping is enough for me to get the chute down. NOW.

[sea1ljs]

Informative discussion. I sail a 43' ketch and most of the time I fly the light weight "A" spinny without the main. The KISS approach while singlehanding. When the wind picks up to around 12kts or more I trip the tack to depower it, the wind carries the sail away from the rigging while I lower the sock. Again singlehanding. At times I'll pole out the genny for a double headsail rig but of course this can limit the angles.

Now a question for you experts. Having flown the spinny outside the forestay, like the whole sailing world seems to do, how does one keep the lazy sheet from falling off the deck and running over it. I had that happen to me on my previous boat and fouled the rudder at a very inappropriate time. Since then I fly the "A" spinny inside the forestay which of course makes gybing a little more difficult. Keeping some tension on the lazy sheet to keep the line from falling in the water appears to be the solution when flying the sail. However when the sail slides around at times while flying the lazy sheet pulls on the sail and chafes the furled up genny. What am I missing here.