Unable to make progress upwind

[Ron Bailey]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

I live and cruise on a 1998 Hunter 410, and am becoming increasingly frustrated that I can't figure out how to get it to beat to windward... It seems that any closer than 45 deg off of the apparent wind I start pinching and lose a lot of speed. But when pointing 45 off the wind, I make so much leeway that my course made good is more like 60 degrees off the wind. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect race level performance out of my cruiser, but I'd at least like to do better than a square rigger!

Anyway, if anyone has experience with this or similar hulls, and has figured out how to beat successfully, I would love to hear. Meantime I'll just motor upwind for 4 hours despite perfect sailing conditions because otherwise it'll take me 3 full days to cover the same distance.

Hi what shape are your sails in? Could be they are stretched out of shape hence not getting them flat enough. Just a thought!

[PaulvR]

Good halyard tension, no luff wrinkles.
Good foot tension, and as with the halyard, not just no wrinkles, but winched in tension.
Genoa fairlead relatively far aft, ideally sheet parallel to line on clew (if present)
Ditto Jib halyard tension. Jib foot should be tight, or car needs to go further aft.
Main sheeted almost home, almost always beating, reef don't release,
battens in, leach "tight", not too much on the leach line.
Neutral helm best, but a hint of weather-helm is acceptable. Lee helm never.
Traveller center, and then shifted to lee to compensate for weather helm.
Jib tell tales streaming, inner tell tale can drop occasionally, outside never.
Come up to a full beat until the top or top two telltales on the main just begin to stall, get them just streaming, that is your course.
All movable weight to windward.
Mast straight mast raked aft a little is OK, never forward.
tension on backstay if available.
she should naturally want to come upwind on the face of a swell, and needs to pull off at the crest, if there is a swell.
In short chop, or in light airs, use fuller sails, a lower course, and a more relaxed rig all round. (Open the leaches.)

Hope this is not stating the obvious.

[betwys1]

for what its worth: sailing my son's Hunter 25 upwind off Padre Island was a bitch. He sailed up to Gulfport to have the hull scraped and painted soon after! <g>

[aeronautic1]

Smaller headsail area

[Vaya Con Dios]

Well, I read all of the replies. Do we as sailors sometimes forget that we are sailing on water, and water has current? Everyone discussed the sailing that occurs above water. If you are heading upwind and not making headway on a long passage, turn hard over to port or starboard and sail for a while. Consider changing your course until you are out of a strong current, and then course correct. It can make for a much more enjoyable and faster sailing experience.

[MicHughV]

nothing quite like putting a new genny or main on the boat....the difference is usually remarkable.....hard to price though, as there are so many variables, sail cloth, number of stitches, etc....it can go from one extreme to another..old style vs. modern, etc

when you first get the new sail, you could pack it into a small suitcase.....after a year or two on the boat, you find you'll have hard time fitting it into the back of pickup truck..

but, having said all that, there are several " used" sail distributors around, check online.....might be worth a look....they will tell you exactly what the sail is made from, shape, condition, etc...I bought one once some years ago and was quite pleased with the product I got...not new off course, but infinitely better than what I had..

[skenn_ie]

Something that a lot of people don't understand is that a keel is not a sideways-resistant part, it is a wing, and wings need forward motion to work. A stalled wing provides very little lift. Also, in light winds, forward speed has far more affect on apparent wind, so make sure you aren't luffing. You might try tightening the luff too, to flatten an older sail. Look at your foresail fairlead too, they are often too far inboard, so there is a pinch-point between the jib and mast/main. If the leech curls inboard, you will lose a lot of lift. Leech should be nearly straight if you look up the edge. If it bellies, you need your fairlead further forward. If it is very straight, and the foot, loose, fairlead needs to move aft, as it prevents you tightening the jib enough

Shoal keels aren't the best under any circumstances. I assisted in bring a boat from Wales to Dublin a few years ago, and when reefed, I could not get the boat to overcome even a moderate, 4kn adverse tide. I learned to sail on rivers ... narrow and substantial flow, so making headway upstream was always a challenge.

[skenn_ie]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

but, having said all that, there are several " used" sail distributors around, check online.....might be worth a look....they will tell you exactly what the sail is made from, shape, condition, etc...I bought one once some years ago and was quite pleased with the product I got...not new off course, but infinitely better than what I had..

Is undoing the stitching and re-making from old material viable ? Alternatively, just cut beside the seams. I want a large, cheap sail for experimental purposes, and can sew (with a machine).

[Happ]

Originally Posted by JebLostInSpace

I live and cruise on a 1998 Hunter 410, and am becoming increasingly frustrated that I can't figure out how to get it to beat to windward... It seems that any closer than 45 deg off of the apparent wind I start pinching and lose a lot of speed. But when pointing 45 off the wind, I make so much leeway that my course made good is more like 60 degrees off the wind. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect race level performance out of my cruiser, but I'd at least like to do better than a square rigger!

Anyway, if anyone has experience with this or similar hulls, and has figured out how to beat successfully, I would love to hear. Meantime I'll just motor upwind for 4 hours despite perfect sailing conditions because otherwise it'll take me 3 full days to cover the same distance.

You may want to tighten the job/Genoa halyard. That will move your pocket forward. You want your maximum draft about 40% from the luff. If you are in light air twist the top of the main off and move the traveler so the boom is midship. Use the down haul on the main to move the draft forward to 40% as well. If these adjustments can’t get you there it’s time for new sails. Good news is every sailmaker is looking for business.

[skenn_ie]

CLR/CoE. Do you have a lot of weather-helm ? As suggested, weight aft will move your CoE aft, even if you ignore wind effects on those items

[edcquesada]

You did not mention the conditions of your sails? If you have a furling main, like most Hunters, that could be you main problem. Those mains are very convenient but very bad for going to weather.

[MicHughV]

Hunters typically have the B&R rig, which requires a bendy mast. I don't think I have ever seen a Hunter with an in-mast main on a B&R rig.....

On an old main, you can generally squeeze a few more years of life out of it, by installing some full length battens..

[psaltydogs]

I had the same problem. The former owner of the boat had ordered new sails from Hong Kong or some other brand, and though they were very nice, the offshore sails stretch out fast and were now baggy. I had to scrap them and order new ones made locally. It seems the inferior material is not sold in the US. With the new sails, the boat could point high and sails like a champion.

[Normanskier]

Not mentioned yet. Check the position of your cars. Too far forward or aft will cause you to dump wind up high or down low.

[Kolchac]

45 is good. If you need better (38-40) - buy expensive sails.