Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-06-2021, 16:22   #76
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Petersburg, AK
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 4,229
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Ever since this was first posted I've wondered if they just caught a particularly bad set? The videos are pretty short and only focus on the couple of waves that really clobbered them. What was the bar like for the preceding half hour? The following half hour?

For all I know they sat in the inner channel watching the bar for half an hour. Saw rollers coming in but never a breaking set. Decided to make their exit. Then came the first breaking set since they started observing, and just when they were at the critical location. Anyone have any historical video of the bar for the half hour leading up to Begonia's adventure? Before I even begin to fault them I'd like to see that - their decision could have been entirely rational.
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2021, 17:24   #77
Registered User
 
GILow's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On the boat, somewhere in Australia.
Boat: Swanson 42 & Kelly Peterson 44
Posts: 9,112
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
Ever since this was first posted I've wondered if they just caught a particularly bad set? The videos are pretty short and only focus on the couple of waves that really clobbered them. What was the bar like for the preceding half hour? The following half hour?

For all I know they sat in the inner channel watching the bar for half an hour. Saw rollers coming in but never a breaking set. Decided to make their exit. Then came the first breaking set since they started observing, and just when they were at the critical location. Anyone have any historical video of the bar for the half hour leading up to Begonia's adventure? Before I even begin to fault them I'd like to see that - their decision could have been entirely rational.


From my brief impression of them in Tassie I think your guess is pretty likely accurate.

That and the incredible miles they have covered.

Despite the assertions of an ignorant few, the skipper clearly isn’t an idiot.
__________________
Refitting… again.
GILow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2021, 18:04   #78
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 13,479
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
takeaway for me is - secure ropes, i mean really secure so they cannot get loose in severe wind&seas. Heard more than once ropes in propellers caused disaster.
With the stability of cats, its easy to get a bit careless in securing things...then conditions turn worse than you expected and things go flying.

Good rule though for venturing into known ugly weather...secure EVERYTHING well.
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2021, 19:34   #79
Registered User
 
ilenart's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Halfway around Australia
Boat: Hallberg-Rassy 40
Posts: 306
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
Ever since this was first posted I've wondered if they just caught a particularly bad set? The videos are pretty short and only focus on the couple of waves that really clobbered them. What was the bar like for the preceding half hour? The following half hour?

For all I know they sat in the inner channel watching the bar for half an hour. Saw rollers coming in but never a breaking set. Decided to make their exit. Then came the first breaking set since they started observing, and just when they were at the critical location. Anyone have any historical video of the bar for the half hour leading up to Begonia's adventure? Before I even begin to fault them I'd like to see that - their decision could have been entirely rational.
This video was posted earlier and shows 9 minutes and 30 seconds after they were hit by the waves. Shows constant breakers.

https://www.swellnet.com/news/reels/...-the-tweed-bar
ilenart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2021, 19:39   #80
Senior Cruiser
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 30,561
Images: 2
pirate Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I'd say most people would look at the video and think "they were lucky to get out of that the way they did"

I can't see it encouraging people to take risks.
Seems you missed my point about people over estimating their boats capabilities and safety leading to needless risks..
Just coz he couldn't do it doesn't mean my boat can't..
__________________

It was a dark and stormy night and the captain of the ship said.. "Hey Jim, spin us a yarn." and the yarn began like this.. "It was a dark and stormy night.."
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2021, 19:59   #81
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Petersburg, AK
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 4,229
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Well, that’s quite interesting, thank you. I still have the same question.

It’s a bit difficult to tell because the camera angle changes as it follows the vessel in, but when they first got hit there was still clear green/blue water behind them. And it looks like they copped the worst set for the next four minutes or so. After that the video shows increasing breakers and solid white water where there had previously been green/blue. Which still makes me wonder if, from the inside, it didn’t look too bad prior to the commitment.

I would really love to hear a first-hand account about the decision, I know from my own experience that conditions can look a lot more mellow from inside (or outside) a bar or pass. Enough so that I hope I’ve learned to temper my judgement because I’ve had similar (but far less severe) experience with conditions being worse than my evaluation. Live and learn.
Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2021, 20:58   #82
Registered User
 
chrisr's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Somewhere in French Polynesia
Boat: Dean 440 13.4m catamaran
Posts: 2,333
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catalinagal View Post
They are friends of ours. This is their story to tell, not ours to speculate. They are not inexperienced sailors and Begonia has tackled bigger seas in her time. Engine and rudder issues were a contributing factor to the loss of control. They have a great blog and I am sure that they will both be writing about their experience once they have had time to process. Until those learnings emerge, please do not speculate. In other forums where this has been posted I have seen some downright vicious comments and character attacks. This is unnecessary. As you can imagine, just going through this experience is harrowing enough without the whole sailing community sitting in judgement. No sailor is perfect. We all make mistakes. Let's study the learnings and move on.

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG-20191106-WA0002.jpg
Views:	63
Size:	39.4 KB
ID:	239748

cheers,
__________________
"home is where the anchor drops"...living onboard in French Polynesia...maintaining social distancing
chrisr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2021, 21:39   #83
Registered User
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
Images: 69
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
Well, that’s quite interesting, thank you. I still have the same question.

It’s a bit difficult to tell because the camera angle changes as it follows the vessel in, but when they first got hit there was still clear green/blue water behind them. And it looks like they copped the worst set for the next four minutes or so. After that the video shows increasing breakers and solid white water where there had previously been green/blue. Which still makes me wonder if, from the inside, it didn’t look too bad prior to the commitment.

I would really love to hear a first-hand account about the decision, I know from my own experience that conditions can look a lot more mellow from inside (or outside) a bar or pass. Enough so that I hope I’ve learned to temper my judgement because I’ve had similar (but far less severe) experience with conditions being worse than my evaluation. Live and learn.
Can't speak for their decision making process. When we're inside a barred entrance on the NSW coast, we use all sorts of input, such as forecast weather and swell, and the bar cameras, which are on every coastal bar in NSW. We do feel it's important to watch the bar cameras for at least 10 minutes or so, to get a real idea of the conditions.

The Tweed river bar camera is very good too. The one at Iluka is problematic, being a long way from the bar, and spending far too long pointing the wrong way.
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 13:56   #84
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,400
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

flightlead asked about when is the best time to exit barred crossings....

My take on this may be different from chrisr's, but I'll tell you how we do it. The barred entrances in question have a lot of impounded water on the landward side, and with the tidal changes, a lot of water "wants" to go out or come in through a constricted opening, especially at springs. Therefore, there is a time lag between high and low tides and which way the water is running. The coastline is also affected by ocean swell, which will reflect, with bigger swell coming towards the shore due to events gone past.

The rule of thumb that we follow is to try to enter and leave when there is little run-in or -out left of the preceding tide, but somewhat in our favor: often about midway through the tide cycle. Following heavy rains, there may be run-out throughout the cycle.

Another factor is the wind direction, which generally, you want to be favorable for going to wherever you're headed....but, and it's a big BUT, if it is against what the current is doing, you get very steep, peaky, seas, that are hard to motor through. They can just about stop a monohull, particularly if it has a tendency to hobby-horse anyway, and make it take a long time for you to get out--and make your potential exposure time to the odd wave in series longer.

Times to avoid are the maximum flow times. In particular--and it was mentioned by Mr. B., above, while you may be able to get over the bar okay, the run-out at springs can be 7 or 8 knots at some of these places, and it is very difficult once past the constricted spot of the entry, to make any headway at all. The narrower they are, the more difficult.

I would say I have developed a taste for open roadstead anchoring, because I like to leave when I want and it's much easier... So if a planned entry into the dead flat water beyond isn't working out, look at the chart, and see, if, with the expected wind direction, there is an open roadstead anchorage nearby. They are usually a little rolly, but I tell myself it is a loving hand rocking my cradle, and I don't mind them as much as I dislike the feeling of being trapped. Also, for me, I'd rather get up at 0200 and leave, if it is too rolly--and we've had to do that a few times, also. This is not so much problem for the multihulls, I suspect.

So, experiment, flightlead, and see what works for you and your sailing partners. Ultimately it is your call.

To be totally clear, I would go over a bar on an outgoing tide, if there were enough depth and if it were calm. Obviously, it requires depth, and falling tides .... well, usually one does prefer rising tides to lift one over shoals. Many of these entrances, one actually skirts the edge of the bar, does not go over the middle, but some of them are arranged so that high water slack is their very best time. Your chart is your friend: it shows the contours.

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 14:34   #85
Registered User
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
Images: 69
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

An inflowing tide helps flatten waves, reduces the number of breaking waves. Outgoing tide makes waves stand up. Deeper water vs shallower, similarly takes the sting out of waves. So basically, close to high tide is the best time to cross. Most will suggest 2 hours before to 1 hour after high tide as the best time.
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 15:41   #86
Registered User
 
chrisr's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Somewhere in French Polynesia
Boat: Dean 440 13.4m catamaran
Posts: 2,333
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

i agree you can go over a bar on an outgoing tide, if the swell is flat enough (we did just this a day or 2 ago at iluka). sure the outgoing current will make the swell stand up, but if there is (virtually) no swell...no matter

but (big but) if there is swell i'm strongly in the 'only cross the bar on an incoming tide' camp. 44crusingcat put it quite well

cheers,
__________________
"home is where the anchor drops"...living onboard in French Polynesia...maintaining social distancing
chrisr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 16:27   #87
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,135
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
An inflowing tide helps flatten waves, reduces the number of breaking waves. Outgoing tide makes waves stand up. Deeper water vs shallower, similarly takes the sting out of waves. So basically, close to high tide is the best time to cross. Most will suggest 2 hours before to 1 hour after high tide as the best time.
What you say about inflow/outflow is correct, but the problem lies in the large delay between high water at the bar and the direction of flow. On the Clarence, for instance, there can be a full three hours between high water time and slack water time, and that complicates the situation a bit for calculating the best time for crossing.

This offset is different for each bar. Lucas's guides give approximations for most of them, and that research is useful for folks travelling the NSW coast.

A further note: big rivers like the Clarence have a lot of flow which does exacerbate the breaking sea issue, but on the other hand the flow is strong enough that the bar doesn't form right at the end of the jetties. The silt coming downstream is carried some distance onward and only starts to fall out when the velocity drops off. The position of the bar changes over time, and currently the shallowest portion lies directly to the south of the southern jetty. What little bar there is going straight out is several hundred meters eastward of the jetties, and that is where the worst of the break happens. In calmish conditions one can proceed straight out, but the best route usually is to turn northward once clear of the jetty and make good a cable or two before angling outward to open water. No problem if headed N, but a bit out of the way if S bound.

There are similar schemes for all the entrances, I suspect. The guides have suggestions, but the changing nature of the bars and the slow update time of the guides can lead to problems, so more timely local knowledge is advised. That's not so easy to get before coming in, dammit, but usually easy once inside. Sometimes the local VMR will advise, but nowadays they seem reluctant to give advice. Liability issues, I suppose.

None of the above is related to Begonia's trauma on the Tweed... just a caution for others cruising the NSW coast.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 20:25   #88
Registered User
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
Images: 69
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
What you say about inflow/outflow is correct, but the problem lies in the large delay between high water at the bar and the direction of flow. On the Clarence, for instance, there can be a full three hours between high water time and slack water time, and that complicates the situation a bit for calculating the best time for crossing.

This offset is different for each bar. Lucas's guides give approximations for most of them, and that research is useful for folks travelling the NSW coast.


Jim
True, but keeping it simple, 2 hours before to one hour after high tide is a pretty good rule of thumb.

I don't think there's any benefit to slack water as a crossing time. Incoming tide reduces wave heights and steepness.

A good example of the delay between high (or low) tide and slack water is the entrance to Lake Macquarie. The lake's depth basically doesn't change with the tides, so it's always more or less around half tide depth. So slack water in the entrance is also around half tide.

For crossing the bar though, closer to high tide is better.

For going through the bridge, half tide (slack water) is better.

Re: VMR advice. I've found them far more willing to offer advice over the phone than on the VHF.
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 21:32   #89
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,135
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Quote:
Re: VMR advice. I've found them far more willing to offer advice over the phone than on the VHF.
Well, that's very interesting! Being an old fart, I never think of phoning them. Thanks for the tip.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2021, 21:56   #90
Registered User
 
chrisr's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Somewhere in French Polynesia
Boat: Dean 440 13.4m catamaran
Posts: 2,333
Re: Tweed Heads, Australia bar

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
True, but keeping it simple, 2 hours before to one hour after high tide is a pretty good rule of thumb.

I don't think there's any benefit to slack water as a crossing time. Incoming tide reduces wave heights and steepness.

A good example of the delay between high (or low) tide and slack water is the entrance to Lake Macquarie. The lake's depth basically doesn't change with the tides, so it's always more or less around half tide depth. So slack water in the entrance is also around half tide.

For crossing the bar though, closer to high tide is better.

For going through the bridge, half tide (slack water) is better.

Re: VMR advice. I've found them far more willing to offer advice over the phone than on the VHF.
not disagreeing at all about lake mac, but for the record : slack water at swansea bridge is 3hrs after high or low water (which is about half tide)

cheers,
__________________
"home is where the anchor drops"...living onboard in French Polynesia...maintaining social distancing
chrisr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
Australia, head

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lakes Entrance bar Victoria Australia Sandy Beaches Sailor Logs & Cruising Plans 1 21-08-2014 02:32
Tweed casablanca Pacific & South China Sea 0 02-08-2013 21:08
Forster Tuncurry Bar NSW Australia SurferShane Pacific & South China Sea 11 04-10-2010 17:50
stuck on a sand bar irwinsailor The Sailor's Confessional 0 28-02-2004 08:12

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.