Tips for docking dual rudder boats

[Dr. D]

"at your own peril" is way overboard. Indeed, using the fact there is no prop walk or prop wash can be quite helpful.

Yes, if stopped the boat is subject to wind and current. Gosh, isn't a boat with single rudder and shaft prop in the same situation?

Going forward, my boat needs only a bit over a knot to get steerage. 1 kt equals 1.7 feet per second. I can achieve that with a single long burst. Going astern, the twin rudders get control at even less speed.

In my last post I mentioned a day with no wind so I was practicing motoring about. Below is what I did back in the marina.

I was practicing coming up to a T-head. I did this on the dock where my slip is located. As I approached the T-head, with it to port, a buddy came over and asked if I needed assistance. I told him I was doing a touch and go. He mentioned something and we started chatting, distracting me. I realized I was at too steep of an angle moving too fast to touch the T-head. With helm amidships I gave the throttle a long burst astern. The boat stopped (oh no!), then a burst astern got the boat moving astern.

At about two boat lengths away a burst forward stopped the boat (oh no!). Another burst forward and the boat moved forward. Paying attention to the docking, at the right point I threw the helm to starboard. Before the boat was parallel to the T-head I gave a burst astern. The boat kissed the T-head. It wasn't perfect, but uneventful.

I went forward and fended off a bit, just to get the bow pointed farther away from the T-head. With no prop walk to worry about, I put the helm to midships and gave a burst forward and the boat went straight ahead. Another burst then helm to port to enter the fairway as I wanted to practice backing into a slip.

After passing the second slip in, a burst astern to stop the boat. Another burst astern and I realized I had stopped too soon. OK, a long burst ahead and go forward a couple of boat lengths. A burst astern to halt the boat.

A burst astern to get moving astern. Helm full to port. Then I noticed the setup was off, the starboard transom was going to clip the starboard piling. A burst forward while keeping the helm full to port (the rudders don't bite while going forward under a knot, so leave the helm to port). The boat is still rotating CW, so give it a few seconds, then a burst astern. Still not clear of the piling, so repeat.

Now a burst astern and the boat moves into the slip. Before lining up with the slip helm to midships. Nearly into the slip, a burst forward to halt movement.

Boat handling with twin rudders is different than with a single rudder, but I still say it is easier. Even if it is the same difficulty, at least it is only different.

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by Dr. D

"at your own peril" is way overboard. Indeed, using the fact there is no prop walk or prop wash can be quite helpful.

Yes, if stopped the boat is subject to wind and current. Gosh, isn't a boat with single rudder and shaft prop in the same situation? Absolutely! But you have additional tricks to bring to bear ie: prop wash/prop walk

Going forward, my boat needs only a bit over a knot to get steerage. 1 kt equals 1.7 feet per second. I can achieve that with a single long burst. Going astern, the twin rudders get control at even less.

Relax Sport! My comment of “at your own peril” was said with the intent to inject a bit of humor. Note the requisite grinning emoji.

That said - I am fully familiar with single rudder boats, as well as those with traditional shaft drive and have recent hours on same. If you’ll re-read what I wrote - I did state that my boat has good rudder authority - as long as there is water moving over them. In my case - that means the boat must be moving. While it is nice to have no-wind, play days... a couple weekends ago, I came into my slip with winds at 15 kt - gusting to 18... diagonal to my slip. This means I was being blown into the docks and nearly sideways to my slip. My fairway is very narrow. It was a situation that required planning and sure execution. Coming to a stop could have been disastrous. With that much wind - my boat could probably make 1 - 1.5 kts just drifting! (Have dodger/Bimini). Trying to counter that and reestablish movement in another direction not directly in line with the prop thrust would have taken precious seconds and plenty of space. I made my plan and discussed with wife - including what a “go around” would need to look like. Wasn’t needed as we got her cleanly into the slip.

The OP asked for advice for dual rudder boats. Several of us have come on and said - just keep her moving - because that is important. Lack of prop wash is an issue, as is lack of prop walk. Nobody said they were bad boats or that you couldn’t maneuver them. Just that for the uninitiated, they are different. Every boat is different. Even having same features such as twin rudders doesn’t mean that every boat will handle the same. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[Dr. D]

OK, you did have a toothy, grinning, smiley face in there. Guess it was just a long week for me. I need to get back out on the water....

[Capt Ricky]

I’m a newer certified ASA instructor of maneuvering. Most of my experience is with single rudder sailboats. I did some teaching (and learning!) on a Moody 45 recently. This sloop has dual rudders, bow thruster, lots of freeboard, wide stern, and moderate port prop walk. Here are my observations on handling:
1. Nil prop wash (duh, right?).
2. Significantly better turning response at a given speed than a single rudder boat, both in forward and in reverse.
3. “Standing” turns to starboard within about 1.5 boat lengths were possible (to my surprise!), due mostly to the port prop walk. It didn’t take much forward way on to get rudder response, so while you don’t get a rudder kick from prop wash, with just a half boat length of forward travel you do get some turning response from the big dual rudders. This might be what one writer means by turning “delay” when applying ahead thrust. If you have dual rudders and a sail drive with very little prop walk, standing turns are not really an option IMHO.
4. She backs beautifully. See #2. I didn’t understand the comment, “if you want to go straight back, you'll have to go slower than a single rudder boat to control the steering.” I found speed was an asset not a liability both in forward and reverse. But maybe he means you CAN go slower in reverse and still control direction, or that you have to have a stronger grip on the helm at a given speed in reverse. Both are true in my limited experience.
5. Use of the stern line as a stopping spring line was a really big help in docking. Guaranteeing you can get that stern line on the dock cleat will permit single handed docking with no stress. The Moody 45 has a very wide stern. Her prop thrust against a stern line produces lots of turning moment to rotate the bow to the dock. The common technique using a midship spring alone was not effective. Absent any rudder directed prop wash to drive the stern in to the dock, the stern stays out. A stopping bridle between midship and stern cleats probably would be work well but is needless complication with this boat. You just have to experiment with a given boat. If a dock cleat is not situated far enough out to provide bow clearance, then backing in is your best bet.
6. Regarding springing off to leave a parallel docking situation, we found it impossible to spring off the stern. This makes sense given no ability to direct prop wash against the dock. Springing off the bow on the other hand was pretty effective. The owner had a nice fat fender which worked great on the stern quarter to protect the hull from the low dock. Lots of flare in the topsides at this location requires careful fender placement.
7. Important to note all this maneuvering was with no wind. I felt it would be necessary to carrying a little extra speed to resist the wind manhandling your bow. The owner liked backing in to a slip under windy conditions but I think maintaining way on and not stopping until you get a stern line on the dock is the best answer.

Lots of good perspectives out there. How cool is this sharing?!

[Letterkenny]

Originally Posted by Capt Ricky

I’m a newer certified ASA instructor of maneuvering. Most of my experience is with single rudder sailboats. I did some teaching (and learning!) on a Moody 45 recently. This sloop has dual rudders, bow thruster, lots of freeboard, wide stern, and moderate port prop walk. Here are my observations on handling:
1. Nil prop wash (duh, right?).
2. Significantly better turning response at a given speed than a single rudder boat, both in forward and in reverse.
3. “Standing” turns to starboard within about 1.5 boat lengths were possible (to my surprise!), due mostly to the port prop walk. It didn’t take much forward way on to get rudder response, so while you don’t get a rudder kick from prop wash, with just a half boat length of forward travel you do get some turning response from the big dual rudders. This might be what one writer means by turning “delay” when applying ahead thrust. If you have dual rudders and a sail drive with very little prop walk, standing turns are not really an option IMHO.
4. She backs beautifully. See #2. I didn’t understand the comment, “if you want to go straight back, you'll have to go slower than a single rudder boat to control the steering.” I found speed was an asset not a liability both in forward and reverse. But maybe he means you CAN go slower in reverse and still control direction, or that you have to have a stronger grip on the helm at a given speed in reverse. Both are true in my limited experience.
5. Use of the stern line as a stopping spring line was a really big help in docking. Guaranteeing you can get that stern line on the dock cleat will permit single handed docking with no stress. The Moody 45 has a very wide stern. Her prop thrust against a stern line produces lots of turning moment to rotate the bow to the dock. The common technique using a midship spring alone was not effective. Absent any rudder directed prop wash to drive the stern in to the dock, the stern stays out. A stopping bridle between midship and stern cleats probably would be work well but is needless complication with this boat. You just have to experiment with a given boat. If a dock cleat is not situated far enough out to provide bow clearance, then backing in is your best bet.
6. Regarding springing off to leave a parallel docking situation, we found it impossible to spring off the stern. This makes sense given no ability to direct prop wash against the dock. Springing off the bow on the other hand was pretty effective. The owner had a nice fat fender which worked great on the stern quarter to protect the hull from the low dock. Lots of flare in the topsides at this location requires careful fender placement.
7. Important to note all this maneuvering was with no wind. I felt it would be necessary to carrying a little extra speed to resist the wind manhandling your bow. The owner liked backing in to a slip under windy conditions but I think maintaining way on and not stopping until you get a stern line on the dock is the best answer.

Lots of good perspectives out there. How cool is this sharing?!

Can you walk me through procedure 6 above?

[s/v Jedi]

All the comments about keeping flow over the rudders is correct but the other 99% is getting a feel for the boat’s handling.

I recommend to practice by doing figure-8’s both in forward and reverse, at different speeds. This will show minimum speed you need to keep steering, how much room you need, what throttle is needed etc.

Also, try making the turns with throttle in neutral, maintaining speed with short bursts on straight parts and find out how much speed is needed to complete a turn without needing more bursts.

Next step would be to do some turns in more restricted space. Also, start doing the “full stop and go” tests here to see how much room you need around you to pull that off.

I am so used to prop walk that I count on it even for deciding on which side to use for docking etc. If I leave in reverse I dock starboard side so that prop walk pulls the stern off. Before leaving, reverse with only the stern spring line attached to move the bow away from the dock, then to neutral to take the spring off and back to reverse to move backwards while pulling the stern off.
With our boat this is a must as it’s big and heavy enough to make it almost impossible to just push or pull where needed, but we first learned all these maneuvers on a Jeanneau 29 and that works just as well.

[Capt Ricky]

Spring off the stern:
• Double up bow line as an aft spring line from bow cleat to dock cleat; double up so it can be released from the bow while aboard
• Place a fender right up next to the bow to fend off the dock
• Turn toward the dock and apply ahead power; tern is supposed to swing out
• When stern is out 45 degrees or so, release the bow spring line and back away
• This technique doesn’t work with a dual rudder boat because prop wash cannot be directed with the rudder to drive the stern out

Spring off the bow:
• Double up stern line as an forward spring line from stern cleat to dock cleat; double up so it can be released from the stern while aboard
• Place a fender right up next to the stern quarter to fend off the stern from the dock. A fatter (round) fender is preferred because of the flair of topsides at the stern on most boats
• Rudder centered; apply reverse power; bow is supposed to swing out
• When bow is out 45 degrees or so, release the stern spring line and power forward away from the dock
• This technique does work with a dual rudder boat; it’s not dependent on prop wash. The wide stern makes for a fair amount of turning moment in reverse.

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by Capt Ricky

Spring off the stern:
• Double up bow line as an aft spring line from bow cleat to dock cleat; double up so it can be released from the bow while aboard
• Place a fender right up next to the bow to fend off the dock
• Turn toward the dock and apply ahead power; tern is supposed to swing out
• When stern is out 45 degrees or so, release the bow spring line and back away
• This technique doesn’t work with a dual rudder boat because prop wash cannot be directed with the rudder to drive the stern out

Great explanations on both techniques. However, I disagree that springing the stern off “doesn’t work”. It’s just that it doesn’t work as well. The asymmetrical pulling on one side of the bow will cause the stern to slowly rotate out as you idle forward. I use a larger ball fender located several feet astern of the bow cleat to provide a pivot point. However, as you note, the lack of any real prop wash against a rudder limits your power to move the stern off. Any winds or tides holding you on the dock will not be countered.

[Capt Ricky]

Phyrcooler you are right, and you hit on the key to making it work which I didn't realize until after my practice session. The bow spring line tension forms a 'couple' (engineering term, equal and opposing forces offset from one another to effect a rotation) with the fender pressure to rotate the stern out. The bow spring line needs to be as far forward as possible. Perhaps you could wrap it around the bow itself; can't get any farther forward than that. And the bow fender should be a little aft of that, but still forward enough to protect the bow. Then it will work. As you noted, bigger the fender the better, and don't expect this to counter much wind or current holding the stern on.

[tweitz]

On any but the largest boats, and in the absence of a strong wind towards the dock, a healthy push on the dock at the stern is enough to swing the stern out to a reasonable angle for backing away. I have my dock on the port side. I happen to use mooring whips, which makes it easy to swing further out. Since I single hand a lot, methods that involve a line at the bow tend not to be too convenient. My routine is to release all the lines at the bow, with the stern all prepped. I then pull down on the whip to move the bow out some distance from the dock. I then walk to the stern, pull down on the whip line, which pushes the stern out, and apply a burst of reverse with the rudder to starboard. This pulls me into the fairway, where I back up a bit to center the boat and then go on my way. The only time this does not work easily is if there is a very strong wind towards the dock. My dual rudders are not noticeably a factor in this entire process.

[Letterkenny]

Mainly looking for docking techniques for high wind blowing you onto the dock scenarios.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Letterkenny

Mainly looking for docking techniques for high wind blowing you onto the dock scenarios.

Arriving comes down to stopping right next to it and letting the wind do the rest.

Leaving requires the fender at the bow and powering forward into the spring line attached at the bow. Make the spring a loop so you can take it back aboard from the bow. With all other lines removed, slowly power forward which brings the stern away from the dock. You can continue all the way until you are perpendicular to the dock but can often call it good at say 60 degrees or so. When ready, switch to reverse and use a good amount of power to move in reverse away from the dock while the spring line is taken back aboard.

[Letterkenny]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Arriving comes down to stopping right next to it and letting the wind do the rest.

Leaving requires the fender at the bow and powering forward into the spring line attached at the bow. Make the spring a loop so you can take it back aboard from the bow. With all other lines removed, slowly power forward which brings the stern away from the dock. You can continue all the way until you are perpendicular to the dock but can often call it good at say 60 degrees or so. When ready, switch to reverse and use a good amount of power to move in reverse away from the dock while the spring line is taken back aboard.

I thought this doesn’t work on a dual rudder boat? Per the previous posts it seems like you need to reverse and pivot from the stern?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Letterkenny

I thought this doesn’t work on a dual rudder boat? Per the previous posts it seems like you need to reverse and pivot from the stern?

No, the rudders have nothing to do with it, it is the spring and propeller doing the work, not the rudder(s) which stay in center position the whole time.

[Phyrcooler]

Originally Posted by Letterkenny

I thought this doesn’t work on a dual rudder boat? Per the previous posts it seems like you need to reverse and pivot from the stern?

S/V Jedi is correct. See my post above. As I noted, it does work, but it helps considerably to have a ball fender to create a pivot point. Also, it may take more effort if the wind is blowing you onto the dock. I was not clear, and apologize for my last sentence above. I was agreeing to the other poster’s comment about the rudder not having an effect - and should have better clarified that this procedure can work with a pivot point.

The other thing S/V Jedi mentioned that I strongly agree - is once you’ve got the stern off the dock a bit, don’t hesitate to be aggressive (give her some serious throttle!) and get her moving. You need the vessel moving in order to get some bite with the rudders and start going where you want. You don’t want to get blown back on the dock.

It really is easier then it sounds, so don’t get pre-stressed by this issue. I’ve successfully used spring lines and fenders for years to get boats off the dock, even when it’s blowing. It just takes a little forethought. It’s even possible to do it solo!