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Old 05-09-2019, 08:32   #61
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

We use fire retardant bags like linked above to charge our small Lithium batteries (drone & camera). We only charge while we are awake because we charge using solar. Fire is no joke on a boat.
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Old 05-09-2019, 09:10   #62
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

I recently started a fire in a foam rubber mattress in the boat. The foam burned extraordinarily fast and produced intense heat and acrid black smoke such that i could not breathe. Fortunately able to scramble out of the cabin and able to return with extinguisher with some difficulty and minor burns.

Within two minutes the exposed steel was so hot from the intense heat that i incurred burns on hands and arms.

I was unable to breathe in the cabin and had to repeatedly evacuate to breathe and return to continue fire suppression which was difficult in itself due to limited visibility due to the black smoke.

Dunno what mattresses this boat used but foam mattresses are very common.

I was lucky to escape and save my boat and will certainly never again have foam bedding or seating on board.
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Old 05-09-2019, 13:24   #63
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

for what it's worth more talk about it being from Lithium-Ion batteries:

https://www.smobserved.com/story/201...hsVrj0RICsYXk8
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Old 05-09-2019, 14:10   #64
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

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Originally Posted by Chipg View Post
for what it's worth more talk about it being from Lithium-Ion batteries:
There is a huge problem with counterfeit chargers that look identical to the real ones, but can be quite dangerous as they overheat batteries. Nitecore has implemented a scratch-off code to verify the authentic charging device, but then you could be using counterfeit Lithium-Ion 18650 cells that are marked like the real deal. It's the Wild West out there, as both good and bad units come from China that look identical to each other. Youtube is full of video comparisons and scary pics of resulting fires.
The conservative move is to leave ALL of these potential little fire bombs off of your boat. The bummer is that EVERY single (incredibly bright) dive light we have uses these dangerous things, never mind the drone...
https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...loding/587005/
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Old 05-09-2019, 14:30   #65
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

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Originally Posted by Chipg View Post
for what it's worth more talk about it being from Lithium-Ion batteries:

https://www.smobserved.com/story/201...hsVrj0RICsYXk8
Good article and worth reading. Among other things, they talk about (unsurprisingly) fraudulent batteries from communist China. These are often recycled batteries that are sold as new and often missing various protections that were there when new.

I have read other articles that talk about the dangers of aftermarket chargers that have charging rates that do not conform to manufacturer standards.
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Old 05-09-2019, 14:34   #66
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

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There is a huge problem with counterfeit chargers that look identical to the real ones, but can be quite dangerous as they overheat batteries. Nitecore has implemented a scratch-off code to verify the authentic charging device, but then you could be using counterfeit Lithium-Ion 18650 cells that are marked like the real deal. It's the Wild West out there, as both good and bad units come from China that look identical to each other. Youtube is full of video comparisons and scary pics of resulting fires.
The conservative move is to leave ALL of these potential little fire bombs off of your boat. The bummer is that EVERY single (incredibly bright) dive light we have uses these dangerous things, never mind the drone...
https://www.theatlantic.com/technolo...loding/587005/

The article mentions some precautions that may solve the issue. In particular, some boats only allow charging in certain safer areas of the boat, not in sleeping quarters and only when someone is able to check on them.
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Old 05-09-2019, 15:31   #67
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

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The article mentions some precautions that may solve the issue. In particular, some boats only allow charging in certain safer areas of the boat, not in sleeping quarters and only when someone is able to check on them.
Probably good advice.
However, battery-blame opinions from the designer of the boat that had an almost hidden emergency exit might be dodging better questions that I can think of. We might hear more from him in court.

I've been on many fishing ("cattle") boats with sleeping quarters just like that for 30 or 40 people. I never remember a safety briefing with ANY mention of an emergency exit down below. Makes a guy think...
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Old 05-09-2019, 16:05   #68
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

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Probably good advice.
However, battery-blame opinions from the designer of the boat that had an almost hidden emergency exit might be dodging better questions that I can think of. We might hear more from him in court.

I've been on many fishing ("cattle") boats with sleeping quarters just like that for 30 or 40 people. I never remember a safety briefing with ANY mention of an emergency exit down below. Makes a guy think...
Anytime I go anywhere I always take a look at how I can get out. This will further my attempts to maintain awareness.

It is always interesting to see how designs change over time, especially after a significant event. I would be surprised if there were not at least a few big changes both implemented by the industry and required by regulation after this is all sorted out.

We should also remember that the boat was designed a number of decades ago. A lot has changed in those intervening years, to include the widespread use of lithium batteries. Whether or not they were the source of the problem, the discussions that are and will happen will likely improve safety in many areas to include batteries, egress, materials, fire safety and suppression, and others.

Here in NYC in 1911, the Triangle Shirtwaiste Fire killed 146 people. Out of this came 64 recommendations of which 60 were passed into law dealing with fire extinguishers, exits, the locking of doors, and many others. While I lament the loss of the thirty-four, I hope that additional losses in the future will be prevented based upon what happened and what we can learn.
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Old 05-09-2019, 16:31   #69
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

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Anytime I go anywhere I always take a look at how I can get out. This will further my attempts to maintain awareness.
I'm old enough to remember The Station Fire (a nightclub). 100 people died when they packed up in the front exit. There are videos on line, but warning, they'll give you nightmares.

People are animals of habit. In an emergency, they will jump for the exit they used to enter -- even when other better exists are available.

A much more effective safety briefing would have entailed taking everyone down to the bunk deck, and then requiring them to crawl over that bunk to wiggle back out through that "emergency exit." That would have created some customer pressure to provision a better exit.

I wonder how long I'd remain employed if I instituted that briefing process.

Myself, when I have passengers, I don't just show them where the PFDs are stored. I require them take a PFD out and put it on so at least they have that much "muscle memory." Yeah, they sometimes grumble about it, but then I get good feedback later. In the moment, people don't like the hassle, but later after they process it, they appreciate that someone actually cared about their safety.

When I have crew who have inflatable PFDs, I ask then to close their eyes and point at the manual inflation handle. Then, after they fumble around and find it, I say: "Good. Never trust your life to an automatic inflator - and in the water - that handle will probably be beneath the surface and you'd better be able to find it without looking for it."

I was once a skydiving jumpmaster. We'd make the students spend an hour practicing reaching for the reserve parachute handle, while we spun them around in a harness with their eyes closed. A PFD is no less important.
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Old 05-09-2019, 16:44   #70
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

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I'm old enough to remember The Station Fire (a nightclub). 100 people died when they packed up in the front exit. There are videos on line, but warning, they'll give you nightmares.

People are animals of habit. In an emergency, they will jump for the exit they used to enter -- even when other better exists are available.

A much more effective safety briefing would have entailed taking everyone down to the bunk deck, and then requiring them to crawl over that bunk to wiggle back out through that "emergency exit." That would have created some customer pressure to provision a better exit.

I wonder how long I'd remain employed if I instituted that briefing process.
Well said. What's the phrase? Something like tell me, and I'll forget. Show me and I might remember. Have me do it and I'll have it down.

Earlier I mentioned about it being likely that there will be new requirements based upon what is learned. I would be surprised if emergency exits/second exit requirements are not a part of the suggestions.
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Old 05-09-2019, 17:38   #71
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

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Earlier I mentioned about it being likely that there will be new requirements based upon what is learned. I would be surprised if emergency exits/second exit requirements are not a part of the suggestions.
You can bank on them been overhauled........I would interested to see the survey standards that the Conception was supposed to have 'met' at her last inspection, there is every chance she met the standards when built, but it would be interesting to see if she was only required to meet the standards at the time she was built, or had to comply with any later amendments.....that does not mean that i am saying she failed to comply, what i mean is i would like to know is if she only has to comply to standards/requirements when built, and if the requirements for emergency exits has changed since she was constructed....

I know emergency exit requirements with regards to SOLAS/DNV/ABS/AMSA/MPA Etc are that they must have clear and easy access and must never be blocked or have access restricted.......building a set of bunk beds underneath them would be grounds for a vessel to be detained and possibly big fines issued.....

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The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) launched a "go team" on September 3 to the accident, including a board member, to investigate. The on-scene portion of the investigation is scheduled to last for ten days, with the objective to determine the cause of the fire and verify the safety measures that had been aboard Conception.[23] The NTSB and other authorities toured the Conception's sister ship Vision, also owned by Truth Aquatics, to evaluate the situation in the fire.[22] During the tour of Vision, the lead NTSB investigator was "taken aback" by the difficulty of using the escape hatch in the stern. "You have to climb up a ladder and across the top bunk and then push a wooden door up. It was a tight space."[27]
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Old 05-09-2019, 18:17   #72
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

It sounds like the crew sleeps topside and the divers below. And no anchor watch? 5 people are plenty for anchor watch shifts. I've done it with 2. The only time I don't have an anchor watch is solo. With someone on watch the fire couldn't get uncontrollable without an alarm being sounded in time for more people to escape.

New rules are going to come out of this.



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Old 05-09-2019, 18:44   #73
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

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Earlier I mentioned about it being likely that there will be new requirements based upon what is learned. I would be surprised if emergency exits/second exit requirements are not a part of the suggestions.
Yeah, I expect there will be suggestions, then changes to regulations as a result, especially for that number of people. Retrofits might be on the table. We'll see.

In addition to the almost-hidden forward escape hatch, is the scary fact that BOTH bunk room exits led to the same compartment, the galley above. (which was engulfed) A report today states that the 5 crew above could not get close to either bunk exit to help because they could not even enter the galley through its ONE and only entrance, the burning rear double doors. They went around forward to try and get in through the sealed windows, but could not get through.
This sounds very bad for so many reasons.
Hopefully this horrible tragedy will lead to changes that may prevent future ones.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/dozens-ki...050401062.html
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Old 05-09-2019, 18:56   #74
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Were fire extinguishing systems used or triggered? Fire blankets? Combinations?

If so, there would need to be a rethink vis-a-vis LiPO battery fire plans.
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Old 06-09-2019, 07:10   #75
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Re: The loss of M/V Conception

Hmm. It says the crew "paddled" to get help. Could it be that they had either no outboard or no gasoline on the dinghy? (you'd think they would have ran the engine instead of paddling 200 yds) If so, then I suspect the gas and or outboard was on board the conception. Furthermore, It would seem that the dinghy was accessible enough to get untied from the burning boat.



When I was young and stupid, I accidentally set my motorcycle on fire while trying to jump start it. I had a tiny bit of gas on the carb, and that caught fire from the spark I made when I made the last connection on the frame for jumpstarting, then tiny flames 6" high melted the fuel lines from the main gas tank and within 10 seconds the flames were 20' feet high. I pointed the garden hose on it and flames spread everywhere into my dad's garage (burning gas floats on water). I was able to pull the burning bike away from the house and then got the other fires out while my bike burned in the road. I'm just glad I didn't set the house on fire. It happened very very very quickly and that was a small 1 gal metal tank with a small outlet, and not a 5 gal plastic jerry.



Replace finicky electric start motorcycle with finicky electric start outboard and I think I see a similar scenario possible.
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