Sym Or Asym Spinnaker for Panama to Marquesas?

[nhschneider]

Whereas we carry an asymmetrical spinnaker, we very rarely fly it, preferring our genoa poled out to windward and our main prevented when sailing deep or DDW. We haven’t found that the modest increase in speed is worth the additional work and attention that a lightweight sail requires. Since we are reluctant to fly our asymmetrical at night, it further discourages from hoisting it. Furthermore, we have grown to prefer the motion on long passages of our genoa poled out - our boat came with two massive spinnaker poles.

Fair winds and calm seas.

[a64pilot]

While I am not real experienced with it yet, so far the code zero isn’t any harder to deal with than the Genoa.
I wished I had stayed with a 110 Genoa instead of going with the 135, but then I didn’t know I would be getting a code zero.
It’s a Mack Sails code zero, with the protective strip.
Read about where he says if people won’t be using it for a week, they take it down.
To me, that pretty much means when you get to where your going, it comes down.
But stowing it really isn’t much work, it comes down through the forward hatch, stuffed in its bag, the only real work is stowing it away, cause it’s, big, cumbersome and not all that light.
I’m sure someone who knew how to stow a sail properly could do better than we do, but we get by.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I wished I had stayed with a 110 Genoa instead of going with the 135, but then I didn’t know I would be getting a code zero.
It’s a Mack Sails code zero, with the protective strip.

I think this is a big benefit of a code 0 type sail, being able to ditch the overlapping 135% genoa and go for a more versitile and higher wind range 110% non ovelapping sail.

[Paul L]

If you are concerned about cash and or storage space then skip the asym. We sailed Panama to NZ and probably used our asym on two days. We had plenty of wind Galapagos to near the Marquesas, then the last few days were light. The trade wind induced swells were not light, making flying an asym in light air a pain in the ass. For us we'd rather roll out the Genoa and reach up a bit to the boat moving and more comfortable ride on the swell.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by 2big2small

I’m looking into buying a spinnaker once again. I never end up buying one because I know I’ll use it only twice or so.

But this time I’m looking more seriously because we’re finally going to tackle the Pacific. I don’t want to risk remaining dead in the water for too long for lack of light weather sails.

We’re two adults and two small kids. Maybe we’ll take crew but to be conservative let’s assume that’s not going to be the case and we’ll be singlehandling most of the time—the other adult being busy with the kids or sleeping.

That’s something in favor of the relative ease of handling of an asym with a sock—or even a furler? But will a symmetrical spinnaker not be more effecient on the traditional tradewind route?

Or, should I just get something like a code zero, a more polyvalent sail that may see usage more than twice, and pole it out the best we can should we need the light weather sailing capability?

What’s your opinion and experience on this route?

For your boat size and crew I suggest a roller furling AS. This will keep you off the deck and make it safer to deploy or snuff the thing.

We are 58feet with 80feet mast. We have both an AS and a code zero in socks. Not having a roller curler keeps us from using either most of the time.

The other option is two identical jibs side by side in two tracks on the same foil. This puts the sail aria low and lets you run wing and wing with one or two poles or reach and point with the two together. The NG moment for rolling is much reduced and the tendency is for the boat to be easier to steer especially with the main stowed.

[Snowpetrel]

For what it's worth my brother got some pretty good fuel consuption figures running at about 5 knots and burning 1.5 litre per hour on his bene50. At these kind of speeds a little fuel goes a long way on those boats.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...53280028499556

[2big2small]

I’ve been exploring the “code zero that can be left up even when not in use” option but the thing is that it would be around 98 square meters at best while between my staysail and genoa I have about 96 m2 already.

I don’t have much experience with light weather sails (only owned one boat that came with a spinnaker and flew it exactly twice), but to me it sounds that I have nothing to gain in this scenario, for downwind sailing. I’d have to pole out sails either way I figure so it’s about the same work.

Of course I could fly both the genoa and the code zero which would bring me to about 155 m2 but is this really ever going to be necessary and workable?


I’ve also looked at asymmetrical spinnakers and it’s pretty much the same story. I have to leave some space on top for the sock and clear the pulpit at the bottom. After that I loose so much of my luff that I again have little more than 110 m2. Now I wouldn’t have to pole out with that sail unless I wanted to go deep, but then I still have to take it down for squals, or even just at night to reduce risk, and it all seems like it’s not worth it compared to my current furling headsails.


Yet I still have this nagging feeling that my headsails don’t cut it for when the wind is really very light, which could last for weeks on end out there is my understanding.

Just motor was the gist of snowpetrel’s brother’s reply when I wrote to him. He flew his kite only two, or three days on that leg only to gain 1 day out of 17 on those who didn’t. He also burned about 200 liters of fuel if I remember correctly. Of course I may have very different conditions during my crossing, hence that nagging feeling I can’t shake off. I wonder if I shouldn’t just pack a symmetrical to truly gain in sail area, not with the intention to use it but as an insurance.

Any thoughts to cross-polinate my latest musings are very welcome.

[2big2small]

I could also buy a used genoa to replace my staysail with and fly in conjunction with my current genoa. I might get 120 m2 out of that. But my wife doesn’t like the thought of not having the staysail on the furler and to not always be ready to take a beating.

Alternatively I could hoist that extra genoa on the second slot of the same furler as the current genoa, but it would be hard to find a sail that would be similar in shape as the existing one, in order to sail both on the same tack when not going downwind.

And then you have to store that extra genoa somewhere when not in use, much bulkier than a nylon sail.

[Nicholson58]

Consider this option preferred by many off shore passage makers

https://www.cruisingworld.com/double...wo-jibs#page-2

[Paul L]

I certainly would not give up the staysail. We probabaly use our staysail 70 or 80% of the time on our Pacific crossing. Sounds like you don't have a lot of light air sail experience. If you get a spin sail you'll need to do some decent practice with it. It is not the same using the same offshore as compared to typical inshore use. Offshore as a mom and pop cruisers the conditions are usually light winds and large seas. If the winds were stronger you'd just fly the white sails.
Inshore or racing you stick up the spin to go fast, often with a decent wind. It takes work and attention to fly the sail when the winds are low and the swells are working the best they can to dump the air out of the sail.

[2big2small]

Alright, all the information finally trickled trough my brain fog (small kids, little sleep). Thanks to anybody who spelled it out to me, repeatedly. That made it finally sink in and I think I have a clear picture now.

To recap, for any future reader, we intend to venture into the Pacific from Panama to the Marquesas (over the Galapagos) and are concerned about being dead in the water should there be an extended period of very light winds. Crew fatigue is a major consideration and the solution should require little human energy and risk. This is very much about downwind sailing.

Here’s what I make of this thread and some additional reading elsewhere (feel free to still correct me or interject objections or different opinions if needed):

Even though a spinnaker or other very light and large sail seems to be the obvious solution, in cases of extremely light wind on an ocean swell they do require lots of attention. Oversheeting might mitigate the issue somewhat. They also need swift action and work on the bow to take them down in case of a squall. If anything goes wrong it can become extremely challenging especially for a quasi singlehanded crew. So this doesn’t feel like the best solution for us after all.

What’s left are (a) white sails, and (b) motoring.

(a) Since a staysail is very likely to come in handy too we can either (1) leave our configuration exactly as it is or (2) add a second genoa on the front most furler. (We shouldn’t replace our staysail with a larger genoa.)

In case (1) we’d pole out the genoa to windward and keep a (probably reefed) main and the staysail on the lee. The staysail’s sheet could be routed through the boom to help prevent the typical low wind flapping. The main needs a preventer.

In case (2) we’d have to buy a second genoa and ideally also a second pole and the additional hardware to fasten it to the mast and add an uphaul, even though we might experiment with routing the lee sheet through the boom there as well. (This solution would beat an asymmetrical spinnaker in terms of sail area but is also more costly.) The mainsail would be used in the same way as in case (1) or could be dropped altogether.
A major drawback here on our boat is that the cutter stay is very close to the forestay and therefore the genoas have to be furled each time the configuration needs to be switched between wing on wing and overlapping sails on the same tack. But a single person ought to be able to do this from the cockpit.

Case (1) is far more likely than (2) to need occasional boosts of (b) motoring. In fact it’s near certain it’ll need those boosts.

So I’ll be looking for (2) a used genoa that matches mine closely and an extra pole. Fallback plan is case (1).

Thanks to anybody who chimed in!

[a64pilot]

What happened to
C: a code zero, on its own furler?
From what I can tell it’s just a lightweight big Genoa for all intents and purposes for downwind work, not harder to put away if a squall is coming, just it’s either all out or all in, no reefing.
Of course it will fly in lighter winds than a Genoa will

[2big2small]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

What happened to
C: a code zero, on its own furler?
From what I can tell it’s just a lightweight big Genoa for all intents and purposes for downwind work, not harder to put away if a squall is coming, just it’s either all out or all in, no reefing.
Of course it will fly in lighter winds than a Genoa will

It would only be 98 m2 and I’d have to pole it out with a very long pole that would be harder to wield and store. With my current staysail and genoa I have roughly the same sail area and even though I’d have to pole it out too it would be with my current, smaller, mast mounted pole. What I already have is “free” whereas I would have to be extremely lucky to find a used code zero and a new one is $7k. I can burn a lot of fuel for that.

(Upwind I get going at 6 knots of speed with my current sailplan with 6 knots of true wind so it’s not as critical there. I’m only dissatisfied with our downwind performance in light air.)

[Dr. Sea]

Originally Posted by nhschneider

Whereas we carry an asymmetrical spinnaker, we very rarely fly it, preferring our genoa poled out to windward and our main prevented when sailing deep or DDW. We haven’t found that the modest increase in speed is worth the additional work and attention that a lightweight sail requires. Since we are reluctant to fly our asymmetrical at night, it further discourages from hoisting it. Furthermore, we have grown to prefer the motion on long passages of our genoa poled out - our boat came with two massive spinnaker poles.

Fair winds and calm seas.

What is the difference in the motion?

[a64pilot]

You don’t have to pole out a Code Zero, or I haven’t had to anyway.

Before the code zero my plan was to run my old 110 Genoa and my 135 Genoa on the same foil and pole one out and not go DDW.
I liked that idea as you can reef them together rather easily. I don’t know, maybe with special lightweight sails, that could still be the best option?
But the sail cloth is so heavy that in really light wind they don’t work as well as the Code Zero does.

It is a lot of money, that is why I didn’t go with a pure downwind sail, cause most people I have talked to that carry a Spinnaker never use it, or used it once and it was so much trouble that they just don’t anymore, plus my being pretty much single handed and my inexperience likely are not a good match.

However people I talked to with Code Zero’s that are on their own furler seem to use them a lot.

I’m no serious sailor, so I usually stay out of the which sail arguments, but what your looking for is the primary reason so bought a Code zero.
Of course I’m not talking about a legal code zero, but a cruising one.