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Old 18-09-2019, 13:25   #16
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Re: Solent versus cutter rig

And just a great photo of an Inner Forestay put to good use:

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Old 18-09-2019, 14:07   #17
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Re: Solent versus cutter rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmh2002 View Post
Dockhead, if I have the data and calculations correct for your boat.
Moody 54: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/moody-54

Foretrangle height (I) = 68.67ft

Storm Jib: 68.67 x 68.67 = 4715.57 x 5% = 235 sq ft

Heavy Weather Jib: 68.67 x 68.67 = 4715.57 x 13.5% = 636 sq ft

Also note that these are recommended maximums.

What are the actual sq ft sizes of your current Blade and Staysail?

I'm not on the boat, so don't know exactly, but the foretriangle area is 692 sq ft, so your number for "heavy weather jib" sounds about right for my blade.
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Old 18-09-2019, 15:55   #18
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Re: Solent versus cutter rig

FWIW:

Our sailmaker, Steve Walker, was crew on one of the race boats in the 1998 Sydney to Hobart race. His own experience (including the death of the skipper/owner) of those survival conditions, along with his discussions with other survivors, was that essentially everyone's storm jib was too big and overpowered the boats.

So, the note that the size stipulated is a maximum should be carefully considered!

Jim
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Old 19-09-2019, 02:17   #19
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Re: Solent versus cutter rig

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
FWIW:

Our sailmaker, Steve Walker, was crew on one of the race boats in the 1998 Sydney to Hobart race. His own experience (including the death of the skipper/owner) of those survival conditions, along with his discussions with other survivors, was that essentially everyone's storm jib was too big and overpowered the boats.

So, the note that the size stipulated is a maximum should be carefully considered!

Jim
^^^ Yes, exactly. It's why I added it again to each calculation, and bolded it!

But unfortunately with the trend towards 'roller furling everything' there is also a trend towards no proper Storm Jib and the idea to just use the Staysail instead.

As I mentioned, maybe that's ok for a near coastal boat, but NOT for offshore passages. And we see that the size of the Staysail will be way too big as well to act as a proper Storm Jib.

Hence my suggestion that the Staysail should NOT be permanently fixed at the Inner Forestay.

At the Inner Forestay, instead use either:

- Hank on
- Synthetic rope luff with tack purchase
- Single line continuous furler if the sail is too big for the crew to manage.
(again with synthetic rope luff and tack purchase)

In this way you can still fit multiple different sails there as required but without undue inconvenience for normal sailing.

I'm not suggesting that cruisers should be up the bow changing sails every hour like a race boat. I'm only suggesting that the OPTION to do so is kept available to mode the boat for different purposes (example to follow).

AND to always be able to set a proper heavy Storm Jib if required.

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Old 19-09-2019, 03:42   #20
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Re: Solent versus cutter rig

Here is a very good working example from personal experience:

On the Swan 51 that I spent years on I set the boat up as follows:

- Forestay (with 100% Blade Headsail, Furling)
- Inner Forestay (removable)
- Baby Stay (removeable)
- Large roach fully battened Mainsail with battcar/mast track system
- Storm Trysail and separate track on the mast

And with this setup we would have multiple different modes for the boat.

OFFSHORE PASSAGES:

- All stays fitted for maximum rig security
- Blade Headsail used primarily
- Depending on the Forecast, on the Inner Forestay either:
- Nothing
- Hank on Staysail, bagged and lashed
- Hank on Storm Jib, bagged and lashed

We flew various Spinnakers too on offshore passages, but that's mostly irrelevant here.

If conditions were benign, we often had no sail on the Inner Forestay, because it was easy enough to go forward and set the Staysail as additional horsepower on a reach, sometimes inside the headsail, sometimes inside the spinnaker.

If conditions were forecast to be heavy we went straight to having the Storm Jib on the Inner Forestay, bagged and lashed, sheets inside the bag.

We once left Newport, RI in 35kn gusting more with the Storm Jib already in use and 2 reefs in the Mainsail. As the wind increased we went to 3 reefs, but nobody needed to go on the Foredeck. With more wind still we could go to a 4th reef, and after that drop the Mainsail and continue with the Storm Jib only.

On this particular boat I have actually been in 50kn and 60kn plus for more than 2 days, on passage out in the ocean, with mountainous seas, so all this is coming from real world experience.

We did also have a Storm Trysail, and Swans of that vintage had separate tracks on the mast to enable bagging and lashing at the mast base in preparation for a big blow. We tested it, kept it on deck very occasionally, but rarely used it, because of the Mainsail with 4 reefs. Over time it was mostly considered a backup sail in case we blew out the Mainsail on a long passage.

DOWN ISLAND CRUISING:

After arriving in the Caribbean we changed to a totally different mode for island hopping.

- Inner Forestay removed (we actually removed it from the mast )
- Baby Stay back & fixed at the mast base (could be reset for a seaway in 1min)
- Blade Headsail used only (and it now tacks easily with no Inner Forestay)
- The Staysail was never used for island hopping
- Mainsail reef lines rerigged to 1st & 2nd, 3rd reef kept in the boom

The 3rd reef was kept in the boom to reduce unnecessary windage (yes, it bothered us) but it could easily be run before heading out if we expected a lot of wind. Normally it just wasn't needed for island hopping - if we were caught out in a squall the fully battened main could just be totally eased without flogging.

To me this is the huge benefit of fully battened sails - they just sit there quietly and nicely when eased for wind, or reefing.

- Now I would have a synthetic rope Inner Forestay instead and bring it back to the mast base instead of removing it totally. We were very keen back then

For island hopping the combination of the 100% Blade Headsail (never used partially furled) plus a big Mainsail, full or reefed as required was a great setup.

And in combination with being a Frers Swan with 9ft draft she went upwind like a train. During 6 seasons down island we were never passed going upwind, even in full cruise mode and the bilges full of rum.

For Reaching this sail combination was also still normally enough because the trade winds provided enough power.

In light air we were underpowered but this was a fast boat for her day so she still slipped along nicely compared to most cruising boats.

We occasionally flew a cruising spinnaker but island hopping normally the legs were too short to bother while short handed.

- Now I would have a Code type sail on a single line continuous furler to add horsepower for light air upwind and reaching. This could be also be set on a pole to enable it to be used at deeper angles if NOT wanting to buy a specialist downwind sail. If buying a specialist downwind sail this should also be on a single line continuous furler too. Life is so easy now with these furlers

RACE MODE:

This boat was also raced, so everything, including the headsail furler and forestay were removed, and a separate forestay with a tuff luff (twin groove lightweight plastic foil to enable racing sail changes) was fitted instead. But that's a whole different story.

Hope this is useful info to understand how a an overall setup can work in combination, and in different modes.

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Old 19-09-2019, 05:16   #21
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Re: Solent versus cutter rig

I changed the set up on our little boat to solent style. We have a 110% jib and a Doyle UPS (similar to code zero) forward of that on the sprit. The jib is on a furler and the UPS is on a Seldon continuous furler with lines leading aft to the cockpit through double fairleads mounted on the stanchions. On our boat I take a reef in the main around 20 knots and the jib stays out until 25 knots where I feel like it's time to furl it and reef down again for comfort. The UPS is good at anything up to 15 Knots apparent before it needs to be put away.
It is true that the UPS has to be furled in order to tack or jibe, but there are no running back stays to deal with and its working range is pretty darn good.

If I were going to get an Outbound 46 (Dream Boat), I would go with the solent rig and upgraded sails. Not sure about the differences between the 46 and the 52. What hull number are you guys getting? #2?

Good luck and I hope you'll keep us updated on how things are going. I remember you posted something somewhere with pictures of her being built.
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