Smaller Boats (25-29ft)

[cooper1991]

When people say smaller boats will be uncomfortable to liveaboard and sail passages (10 - 100 miles), what exactly does uncomfortable mean, other than getting wet above deck and knocked about below decks?

At what point does a smaller boat (as above) become dangerous eg capsizing, inability to deal with currents/tides/wind?

I see 27ft boats being sailed round the world but either these people are excellent sailors, very resilient or very lucky. Suspect they are the exception to the rule of size?

[deltaten]

Pro/Con?
Either/Or?

I don't see it as a strictly binary decision. It comes down to your comfort level and proposed requirements. Determine range of size given your areas slippage cost/avail, average depth and ease of access.
I did Venn diagram to list my requirements : length , draft, beam, power, berthing, galley, head, etc. Once I established list, I only looked at craft that fit within the confined area. This reduced the prospective list to a manageable number.
Then, stay within your (realistic) budget. I allowed 1/3 for complete purchase, 1/3 for first year start-up....all slippage/storage, all insurances and all necessaries to get seaworthy and moving. The remaining third was emergency fund and 2-3 year buffer.

Best of luck, hope that helps

[giliganthegreat]

Interesting. When you talk about 26’ boats going around the world it is combination of (typically) vast experience, weather forecasting to avoid storms, and a little luck and equipment.

As for long passages- it is a matter of taste. Humans have been suffering forever. If death is your measurement you can eat a great deal. If instagram and channel follows are the aim you may have chosen the wrong sport- I could be wrong. A nice boat does take a good picture.

Everyone does this for their own reasons.

No boat is safe. Safer boats are safer.

Also there is a rough correlation between boat size and capsize rating and weatherability. A bigger boat will store more keel. A smaller equivalent boat will also need to be over-engineered relative to a larger craft. Taking into account physical stress.

Anyways. I don’t know anything. Don’t mind me.

Ciao

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by cooper1991

When people say smaller boats will be uncomfortable to liveaboard and sail passages (10 - 100 miles), what exactly does uncomfortable mean, other than getting wet above deck and knocked about below decks?

At what point does a smaller boat (as above) become dangerous eg capsizing, inability to deal with currents/tides/wind?

I see 27ft boats being sailed round the world but either these people are excellent sailors, very resilient or very lucky. Suspect they are the exception to the rule of size?

Small is uncomfortable..
They are usually people looking to take their land lives to sea with all the accoutrements like washing machines, fridge freezer, air con etc..
Lack of the above = discomfort aka roughing it.
Your more likely to be thrown about below in a large boat rather than a small one where arms outspread can brace both sides of the deck head and lack of headroom means spending most of the time below on your butt as you cook, rest or sleep while the AP takes the strain.
Smaller sails are easier to handle and a well set up rig can mean never having to leave the cockpit.
As a small boat sailor the right boat can take most weather well.. I've ridden out December gales in the Biscay on a 22ftr but.. there's a lot of 22ftrs I'd not do that on.
A Mac 26 is the polar opposite of say a Vertue.. learn what boat/S suit your ambitions and take it from there.
Not being fussy about headroom would be a good start..

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by giliganthegreat

Interesting. When you talk about 26’ boats going around the world it is combination of (typically) vast experience, weather forecasting to avoid storms, and a little luck and equipment.

As for long passages- it is a matter of taste. Humans have been suffering forever. If death is your measurement you can eat a great deal. If instagram and channel follows are the aim you may have chosen the wrong sport- I could be wrong. A nice boat does take a good picture.

Everyone does this for their own reasons.

No boat is safe. Safer boats are safer.

Also there is a rough correlation between boat size and capsize rating and weatherability. A bigger boat will store more keel. A smaller equivalent boat will also need to be over-engineered relative to a larger craft. Taking into account physical stress.

Anyways. I don’t know anything. Don’t mind me.

Ciao

Well that is a little off.

A 32 foot Contessa 32 has an AVS of about 156 degrees meaning it can get knocked down and rotated a full 156 degrees down into the sea and still come back upright!

Many larger vessels can't do that.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by cooper1991

When people say smaller boats will be uncomfortable to liveaboard and sail passages (10 - 100 miles), what exactly does uncomfortable mean, other than getting wet above deck and knocked about below decks?

At what point does a smaller boat (as above) become dangerous eg capsizing, inability to deal with currents/tides/wind?

I see 27ft boats being sailed round the world but either these people are excellent sailors, very resilient or very lucky. Suspect they are the exception to the rule of size?

There are small sailboats and there are small sailboats.

You need to check their stats.

Sailboatdata is a good place to start.

Then why are some small sailboats considered Bluewater boats meaning a well prepared one could cross an ocean in relative safety

Recently a guy singled handed his Shannon 28 out and around Bermuda then returned nonstop. That trip was at least 1400 miles but he sailed further.

Another guy sailed his beat up Bristol 27 across 3 oceans most times he had no running engine and very old sails

Also several have sailed round the world on Contessa 26's including 18 year old Tania Aebi in the 1980's. They have only 5"4" of head room though

Compares these boats to say something like a J/27 which is faster than both but not the best for distance sailing or handling rough weather.

Also see list of good small boats for cruising at the atomvoyages site ...link below. All boats are below are on that list except the J/27

https://bluewaterboats.org/shannon-28

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/shannon-28

https://bluewaterboats.org/bristol-27

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/j27

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/bristol-27

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/contessa-26

https://bluewaterboats.org/contessa-26

https://atomvoyages.com/planning/cla...ers-list-html/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r3mno5oo7s

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by cooper1991

When people say smaller boats will be uncomfortable to liveaboard and sail passages (10 - 100 miles), what exactly does uncomfortable mean, other than getting wet above deck and knocked about below decks?



At what point does a smaller boat (as above) become dangerous eg capsizing, inability to deal with currents/tides/wind?



I see 27ft boats being sailed round the world but either these people are excellent sailors, very resilient or very lucky. Suspect they are the exception to the rule of size?

A very good boat can make up for a mediocre sailor and a very good sailor can make up for a mediocre boat. And different routes in different seasons can be better or worse.

Shorter and/or lighter boats move more due to wave action which makes them less comfortable and more fatiguing to operate.

All vessels, no matter how large, are more dangerous to operate than living in a house on land. Dangerous is a matter of perception.

There are vessels down to 20’ I would consider taking on offshore passages. I wouldn’t take the smallest into attic or Antarctic waters but for a passage to Hawai’i or Bermuda, sure Cal 20 or Flicka 20. Wouldn’t be very comfortable though.

Regarding capsize resistance, a more stable boat isn’t more capsize resistance. As an example, a sailboat without its mast is more stable, has a higher peak righting moment and a higher Angle of Vanishing Stability but is more susceptible to capsize. I can discourse on this ad nauseam.

To a some extent capsize resistance is conferred by a larger/longer vessel but it is not sufficient or necessary all by itself.

[TrentePieds]

Many years ago I had trouble with a drunken youth that just wouldn't take my word for it that "out there" there is nothing but wet, and cold, and tired and seasick and hungry and wet and cold and....

If you wish to cross oceans in comfort - in a manner of speaking - use a Boing 747!

Someone mentioned the AVS, the "angle of vanishing stability". This magic number has nothing whatsoever to do with "comfort", and very little to do with safety at sea. If you, as skipper, let a sailboat roll to the AVS you are already in deep, deep doodoo.

As a novice, which I think you must be since you ask the question you ask, you need to focus on the essentials:

1) Is the seating position at the helm such that you can tolerate being there for hours on end?
2) Is there a bunk where you can sleep securely while the boat is rolling and pitching? 3) Are there handholds under the deck-head so you can always have hold of one with at least one hand lest you should be thrown about and injured when you move about below?
4) Are the cooking facilities arranged so you can prepare a simple meal like a lobscouse on a single burner without having the pot with the scalding hot food thrown at you when the boat rolls.
5) Is there a hanging locker directly inside the companionway where you can hang your soaking wet foulies before you drag all kindsa water into the cabin, let alone onto the bunk where you sleep?
6) Is there a drain in the foulie locker so the water accumulating there can be taken overboard rather than into the bilge?
7) Is there a handhold in the heads so you can steady yourself with one hand while you do "the paperwork" with the other?
8) Is there enough room in the head that you can actually DO "the paperwork" without having to stand up and stick your bum out into the living accommodation?

You get the drift!

As for whether a 26 footer is "safe" to take across oceans... Remember that it is not the BOAT that takes the crew safely across the ocean - its the CREW (AND PARTICULARLY THE SKIPPER) that takes the boat safely across oceans.

Seafaring is an activity alien to H.sapiens. None of what you have to do as a seafarer is intuitive for H. sapiens, and all of what you have to know to be a competent seafarer must therefore be learned - and understood - the hard way :-)

Bonne chance

TrentePieds (which ain't a heckuvalot more than 27'!)

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by cooper1991

When people say smaller boats will be uncomfortable to liveaboard and sail passages (10 - 100 miles), what exactly does uncomfortable mean, other than getting wet above deck and knocked about below decks?

I had a Morgan 24 and a Hunter 26. The Morgan 24 was more seaworthy but didn't have a usable place to sit below decks, let alone do anything else. I spent a night or two at anchor.



As for the Hunter 26, it was workable for a few days but uncomfortable for a week-long trip I completed once. There wasn't quite standing room below, there weren't Dorade boxes, so trying to cook buttoned up was nearly impossible between bumping my head and the humidity. The aft (larger) berth had poor access. Tankage was marginal for a week. I had an electric cooler, and the electrical system was marginal for that for more than two nights. It also handled wave action poorly, and had excessive windage and poor sailing ability in strong winds.


I don't need a clothes washer but I want to be able to stand up, be able to cook safely, have a cabin that stays reasonably dry, and have enough stowage that there isn't crap piled everywhere. To me this includes refrigeration and tankage. For the most part that means 34'-37' boats as a minimum, at least for two people. If you're by yourself and can put up with a lot there are some things like the Orion that are smaller but still have headroom etc.

At what point does a smaller boat (as above) become dangerous eg capsizing, inability to deal with currents/tides/wind?

Depends more on the specifics of the boat and the passage than the size of the boat.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Someone mentioned the AVS, the "angle of vanishing stability". This magic number has nothing whatsoever to do with "comfort", and very little to do with safety at sea. If you, as skipper, let a sailboat roll to the AVS you are already in deep, deep doodoo.



TrentePieds

Mentioning the AVS of a certain boat had nothing to do with comfort or getting knocked down.

What it means is that you have a good seaworthy boat under you and in most conditions you'll be fine and when it does hit the fan most of these boat deal with it much better than many with a lower AVS

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

1) Is the seating position at the helm such that you can tolerate being there for hours on end?


TrentePieds (which ain't a heckuvalot more than 27'!)

Why would you need a good seated position at the helm as a single hander or even if crewed?

I think I have sat and steered my monohull for maybe 30 minutes in 11 years. (except for the time I wanted to get home when the wind hit 35 knots so I steered for a few hours)

Had that been offshore, I'd have lowered the main and sailed downwind with tiny jib on autopilot

We use autopilots these days with backup autopilots then sheet to tiller.

Btw that brings up another good point.

Don't buy a small boat with a wheel helm.

Tiller is the only way to go

[Pizzazz]

Liveaboard means minimum standing room height. This puts the minimum size at 31-32 ft. I lived on a Hunter 31 for a few years and thought it was perfect, even with kids visiting. Now I moved to a Riva 48 (power) and the level of comfort increased. I would put the minimum size at 35-37 ft for two people, 40 ft for 2+2. Anything else is more compromises than it is worth writing about.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Liveaboard means minimum standing room height. This puts the minimum size at 31-32 ft. I lived on a Hunter 31 for a few years and thought it was perfect, even with kids visiting. Now I moved to a Riva 48 (power) and the level of comfort increased. I would put the minimum size at 35-37 ft for two people, 40 ft for 2+2. Anything else is more compromises than it is worth writing about.

Actually not quite true.

I can stand up below on my Bristol 27 for about 3/4 the way back in the cabin. I'm 6' tall.

The Shannon 28 I believe has 6' of headroom

[rsvmille]

James Baldwin loves that size. He circumnavigated a couple times in his Pearson 28 and wouldn't trade it for larger. Even had his later to be wife living aboard with him for a long time. Excellent books and he has YT videos on mods to make them more livable.

https://atomvoyages.com/

[Grith]

Obviously there is a big difference between blue water ocean capable yachts and inshore moderate distance day and occasional overnight craft. My partner and I are now 5 weeks living onboard a 28 foot trailable Imexus power/sailer yacht very comfortably in a southern Australia mid winter sail. Standing headroom is only about 3 foot square but adequate to cook standing for me at 6 foot 2 and it has an enclosed shower/head with hot water a luxury on much larger yachts.
If not looking for an ocean crosser then there are some smaller cruising yacht alternatives. Everyone just seems to focus on offshore capable yachts, apartments on water or sailing speedsters.