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Old 25-03-2022, 00:55   #46
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

I can see the ship being renamed: Never Forward.
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Old 25-03-2022, 02:25   #47
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

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I can see the ship being renamed: Never Forward.
Good one, Macdoug!
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Old 25-03-2022, 02:35   #48
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

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Well Yes - I was actually thinking of 29 seconds.

At 13 knots her rate of advance is 7 metres per second, 70 metres in 10 seconds, 194 metres in 29 seconds (you have to deal with these sorts of figures when working out 'wheel over' points whether in handomatic or on 'full auto').

10 seconds could get you into the putty in many situations.

Lots of unknowns here - weather conditions, pilot's experience, the quality of this particular ship's BRM.

I think I will wait for the official report.

And also I don't think this is a catastrophe. 'Costa Concordia' was a catastrophe, this is just a ship that has run aground. It's been happening since the Ark hit Mt Ararat.
El Ping!

I was waiting to hear your perspective on this.

I always love it when you chime in from your many years of merchant marine miles.

I watched a recent report which said that any digging process will have to be carefully executed, as they could still break her up by creating unequal hull stresses on such a heavily laden vessel...

What a mess!

Thanks again, Ping
LittleWing77

P.S. What does "the quality of this particular ship's BRM" mean? What its 'BRM'?
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Old 25-03-2022, 02:57   #49
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

BRM = Bridge Resource Management
It came to us from CRM - Cockpit Resource Management which I believe had its origins in the Tenerife disaster. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster

Essentially the way orders are given and responded to and that the master is not quite - almost but not quite - 'Master under God'.
That the OOW or even the OOW can question an order if they think it is wrong and the OOW has a part along with the Master in the decision making process.

As it applies to helm orders and such it is in the form that the master may say 'Steer 240'. Helmsman is meant to reply 'Steer 240, Aye Aye Sir' while doffing cap.
Master to respond 'Yes 240'.

I try and apply it on my wee ship. Nothing worse than asking/ordering/telling/suggesting the person on the helm steer some new course and getting no reply. I also know I am not immune to lapses of judgement as in ' I think there is enough water in this pass'. 'Um, skipper, we ran aground last time'.

If you want to see what total failure of bridge procedure looks like read the entry under this pic.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hilton...n/photostream/
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Old 25-03-2022, 03:39   #50
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

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As it applies to helm orders and such it is in the form that the master may say 'Steer 240'. Helmsman is meant to reply 'Steer 240, Aye Aye Sir' while doffing cap.
Master to respond 'Yes 240'.

I try and apply it on my wee ship. Nothing worse than asking / ordering / telling / suggesting the person on the helm steer some new course and getting no reply.
Funny how this procedure has trickled down. I'm just a lowly Yachtmaster, but I was trained (I think as part of the RYA curriculum, if I'm recollecting correctly) to hear and repeat (vocally) the course-to-steer when taking the helm on handover.

Crew Going Off-Watch: "Steering 240".
Crew Coming On-Watch: "Two-forty. Okay thanks" and assume helm. (I always like to hand-steer at the beginning of a watch, so at the exchange, I'd be physically taking the helm.) In the case of taking over a watch with the autopilot, the procedure is meant to be the same - a verbal acknowledgement of the course, regardless. (No doffing-of-caps or aye-ayes, of course... perhaps a leetle too formal for a cruising yacht. )

I also read the whole report on that shipwreck. Hm. That second officer was at the heart of it. Not only to NOT report that he had independently altered course by 20 degrees...!

Also the fact that nobody did a position-fix at the end of that second officer's watch!

Sheesh! Talk about Bridge Resource Management! In that case, I don't think that second officer was much of a resource...

Warmly,
LittleWing77
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Old 25-03-2022, 05:52   #51
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

That repeating is what assures the “co” in communication. Otherwise you just have “munication”.

A bit of thread drift but ai have a question for merchant mariner types, and as you are assembled I will ask….

On a “modern ship”, after 1980’s era, how long does it take to go from “cold ship” (just laying against a dock for a couple of days” to “ full steam ahead” or “get the heck outta here!” And if you do quickly go from one state to another is there any chance of damage to the shaft, bearings, etc.

I understand new ships don’t have to “get up steam” but I was under the impression the shafts needed to turn a bit slowly at first, perhaps to circulate oil.
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Old 25-03-2022, 06:18   #52
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

I’m not a merchant mariner - just a reader.
There’s a lot of auxiliary stuff you need on line, before you can even try for a start, hours later.
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/vide...han-you-think/

Power Generators seem to be a different mantter:
While combined cycle gas turbines can take over 30 minutes to start, combustion engine power plants can start and reach full load in less than 5 minutes – providing flexible, quick-start capability.
https://www.wartsila.com/energy/lear...e-startup-time
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Old 25-03-2022, 12:06   #53
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

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Originally Posted by LittleWing77 View Post
Funny how this procedure has trickled down. I'm just a lowly Yachtmaster, but I was trained (I think as part of the RYA curriculum, if I'm recollecting correctly) to hear and repeat (vocally) the course-to-steer when taking the helm on handover.

Crew Going Off-Watch: "Steering 240".
Crew Coming On-Watch: "Two-forty. Okay thanks" and assume helm. (I always like to hand-steer at the beginning of a watch, so at the exchange, I'd be physically taking the helm.) In the case of taking over a watch with the autopilot, the procedure is meant to be the same - a verbal acknowledgement of the course, regardless. (No doffing-of-caps or aye-ayes, of course... perhaps a leetle too formal for a cruising yacht. )

I also read the whole report on that shipwreck. Hm. That second third officer was at the heart of it. Not only to NOT report that he had independently altered course by 20 degrees...!

Also the fact that nobody did a position-fix at the end of that second third officer's watch!

Sheesh! Talk about Bridge Resource Management! In that case, I don't think that second third officer was much of a resource...

Warmly,
LittleWing77
I think you meant to say 'third officer'. Fixed it for you.

Yes, the master was ill served and was unaware at midnight just how much leeway the ship was making. The master was coming into the wheelhouse just as the 3/0 was leaving it.

What isn't mentioned but was common knowledge in the company was that the 3rd officer had his wife on board, the 2nd officer was a lady's man, the two were not on speaking terms.
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Old 25-03-2022, 12:26   #54
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

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That repeating is what assures the “co” in communication. Otherwise you just have “munication”.

A bit of thread drift but ai have a question for merchant mariner types, and as you are assembled I will ask….

On a “modern ship”, after 1980’s era, how long does it take to go from “cold ship” (just laying against a dock for a couple of days” to “ full steam ahead” or “get the heck outta here!” And if you do quickly go from one state to another is there any chance of damage to the shaft, bearings, etc.

I understand new ships don’t have to “get up steam” but I was under the impression the shafts needed to turn a bit slowly at first, perhaps to circulate oil.
A ship that is only a few days in port isn't 'cold ship' as most stuff is running except the main engine. On a motor ship the plumbers would have a good idea of the planned departure time a day or more before based on either being on a liner service with a set departure time or knowing when loading or discharge would finish.
There was also the issue of booking pilot, tugs and linesmen.

An hour before departure the 3/0 would 'test the gear' in conjunction with the engineers - steering, telegraphs, turn on radars, lay out charts, etc etc.

Steamships were quite different to motor ships and if only dealing with a shortish port stay they would keep steam up. This apart from anything else increased costs. My first company ran steamers to southern Africa and Australia, motorships to India.
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Old 25-03-2022, 12:33   #55
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

BRM gets more complicated with a pilot on board. The pilot gives the commands to the helmsman and the master is responsible if the pilot screws up. After the Busan collided with the Bay Bridge under the instructions of a drugged up pilot, I would be giving the Ever Forward pilot every toxicology screen known to medicine.
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Old 25-03-2022, 12:39   #56
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

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Originally Posted by El Pinguino View Post
I'd go with 'a bit of a stuff up'. I've seen far worse.
...
Lets see what the report says.

This is 'aground' -
https://www.flickr.com/photos/hilton...n/photostream/
Well sure. I guess that all I'm saying is that if you increase size of ships, you should also be increasing the diligence, precision and safety of their operation. A modern megaship having a mishap has an order of magnitude more effect on the world than a 1950s freighter running aground.

btw, I do appreciate your sharing your professional marine experience, in case that's not clear.
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Old 25-03-2022, 12:57   #57
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

Thanks on the “cold ship” answer.

I recently watched a video of 2 ships heading out in less than 5 minutes. I was wondering if they did any internal damage in that exercise. It seems possible depending upon their exact status.
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Old 25-03-2022, 14:46   #58
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

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Well sure. I guess that all I'm saying is that if you increase size of ships, you should also be increasing the diligence, precision and safety of their operation. A modern megaship having a mishap has an order of magnitude more effect on the world than a 1950s freighter running aground.

btw, I do appreciate your sharing your professional marine experience, in case that's not clear.
The size of stuff does seem to run ahead of the ability to operate it safely. My concerns with these big new box boats is the way they seem to be always losing containers over the side.

The first 'big' ship I sailed on - in 1971 - was a 101,000 dwt newbuild. They were building much bigger by then.
Bridge outfit was a gyro compass, lumpy great Sperry autopilot, VHF,RDF, and two ( 3cm and 10cm) 'ships head up' unstabilized Raytheon radars. That was it. No Loran, no Decca.
Asked the Norwegian owners rep why we didn't have gyro stabilized true motion radars which had been around for years.
'This is what we have always put on our ships'.
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Old 25-03-2022, 18:01   #59
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

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Thanks on the “cold ship” answer.

I recently watched a video of 2 ships heading out in less than 5 minutes. I was wondering if they did any internal damage in that exercise. It seems possible depending upon their exact status.

And just to take this part of the thread even further away:

During sailing ship times, it was not unheard of for the captain to join the ship via the pilot boat that was returning the pilot to shore.

The master did all the hard work of getting the ship to that point.
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Old 29-03-2022, 12:10   #60
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Re: Sistership EVER FORWARD Run Aground in the Chesapeake

Refloat attempt about to start...
https://youtu.be/ONTCXd5MyLg
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