Series Drogue on a Production Boat ?

[dennisail]

I have been reading up on drag devices and I think a JSD is the best option. I know people like to argue this point. But I was wondering if anyone here has used one on a modern fatass prod boat? Did it work well? How did you attach it? I heard the cockpit winches may not be strong enough. But what if you lopped each end of the bridal over one winch per side, then winched a line tight from each winch to the windlass? That would put the winches in compression rather than cantilever. Chafe would still need to be addressed though.

[S/V Alchemy]

If I was planning to sail in conditions requiring a series drogue, I would not take the vast majority of today's production boats.

Period.

Those that would be suitable for distance voyaging would almost certainly require some retrofitting, such as strongly backed chocks, padeyes and winch bases in order to safely deploy and retrieve series drogues.

I have seen such modifications either to the stern quarters or directly to the transoms.

Not all boats are suited to this and not many new boat owners care to start drilling holes and ordering expensive custom welding, however, but I would hesitate to put a drogue on a typical horn cleat screwed into a belowdecks pad of glass as I've seen on a lot of boat show princesses.

Just my opinion. I think just as some folk retrofit short bowsprits on production boats in order to get more drive out of assymetrical spinnakers, I believe a drogue is specialized and powerful gear that needs strong points of attachment to the boat.

At the same time as beefing up the stern, you could address line chafe issues. Even a simple polished strip of stainless will help here, but you have to use the drogue to find out where the bridle is likely to rub when the set up is under load.

[dennisail]

If I was planning to sail in conditions requiring a series drogue, I would not take the vast majority of today's production boats.

That's a red herring which does nothing other than incite another prod boat argument. No one plans to be caught in conditions that require a drag device. There is always a chance you can get hit by a storm on any offshore passage. If a prod boat is more dangerous in such conditions as you suggest, then it seems logical that the need for any device that can increase the chance of survival is even MORE important for such a boat.

[goboatingnow]

If I was planning to sail in conditions requiring a series drogue, I would not take the vast majority of today's production boats.

What complete and utter balderdash.

This notion would eventually confine future generations to sailing in harbours and is simply and completely undermined by actual experience of modern boats and their voyages.

I've used both home made drag devices ( long wraps etc) and something similar to a JSD on several standard production boats ( two jeannesus and a bene, yes I'm still alive)

I didn't use the winches because I still needed them for the small headsail, I would rarely reccomend bare poles. I attached them to the stern cleats, even though this isn't optimal. Getting it in can be a challenge especially if you find you have too much drag. I've used a rolling hitch onto a winch to get them in

The biggest issue with JSDs is they can be too good and slow the boat far too much. In my view this is nearly worse then going too fast, especially in a fin and spade modern boat. You can find yourself almost stopped in the troughs and that's a scary thing.

In my view if you have enormous pressure from a drogue of the stern, there's too much out.

I hasten to add that I haven't too much experience with the older full keel "coffin ships. "

Dave

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What complete and utter balderdash.


I've used both home made drag devices ( long wraps etc) and something similar to a JSD on several standard production boats ( two jeannesus and a bene, yes I'm still alive)

I didn't use the winches because I still needed them for the small headsail, I would rarely reccomend bare poles. I attached them to the stern cleats, even though this isn't optimal. Getting it in can be a challenge especially if you find you have too much drag. I've used a rolling hitch onto a winch to get them in

Dave

Hi Dave,

Bit more info would be appreciated, particularly with regard to the "something similar to a JSD"

What size of boats are we talking, how many drouges etc, and the something similar bit, was that a home made set a drogues

Thanks in advance

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by dennisail

That's a red herring which does nothing other than incite another prod boat argument. No one plans to be caught in conditions that require a drag device. There is always a chance you can get hit by a storm on any offshore passage. If a prod boat is more dangerous in such conditions as you suggest, then it seems logical that the need for any device that can increase the chance of survival is even MORE important for such a boat.

Of course it's a red herring...how many people carry a series drogue at all? Or a sea anchor? Modern performance cruisers are supposed to run off from bad weather their shoreside forecaster has warned them about days in advance!

I stand by my observation, however, based on peering back into the dark recesses of production boats over the last decade, including those rated, speciously I feel, "Lloyd's Ocean 'A'", that attaching something with the braking power of a drogue, and something with the potential to become fouled, not only requires MOB-levels of practice in non-stormy conditions, but the sort of beefy attachment points found on high-latitude boats and not commonly on Catalinas or Beneteaus or Hunters.

People used to drag tires or even spare anchors on hawsers 1 1/2 inches thick or a similar line would act as a warp drogue when running before a storm. Such a line may no longer be necessary, admittedly, but the fact is that it wouldn't fit the cleats present in many cases, nor would screws into a glassed-in pad suffice.

Don't get me started on 24 inch tall lifelines.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What complete and utter balderdash.

This notion would eventually confine future generations to sailing in harbours and is simply and completely undermined by actual experience of modern boats and their voyages.

I maintain that the move to light, fast "performance cruisers" inspired by "trickle down" ocean racing designs has in some respects compromised the ability of some newer boat models to heave to or to keep their long, narrow, skegless rudders in a bothered seaway. All the aspects that make such boats champions of fast, comfortable sailing in moderate conditions can go a bit pear-shaped in the bad stuff, which is sometimes unavoidable.

By the same token, I see a lot of wide, handhold-deficient saloons on modern cruisers that look to me like an invitation to break limbs or to stave in ribs in a seaway, where it's a circus act under even some moderate conditions to rappel from the forepeak to the cockpit using all four limbs.

I agree with you that the JSD can, reportedly, act too well. Ideally, you are moving fast enough to provide effective steerage even when moving diagonally down a wave face, but not beyond hull speed. So you would want the ability to "shorten drogue" as needed, and that would require significant mechanical advantage and attachments at the stern.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

Modern performance cruisers are supposed to run off from bad weather their shoreside forecaster has warned them about days in advance!

dennisail: I have a normal drogue and a parachute sea anchor because I prefer the thought of the bow being held into the waves.

Each person has their own preference and though it doesnt get as bad as an anchor thread, people like their own method.
If you like the stuff witten about a Series Drogue go for it.


Mark

[rtbates]

Best attachment for a JSD is a LARGE chain plate thru bolted with a backing plate. One per side at the quarters pointing back with a tad of over hang so the shackle doesn't abrade the hull. This way the bridle touches NOTHING... Attach a separate retrieval line at the bridle connection point with the drogue line and keep the other end available in the cockpit. You want the drogue to pull on the vessel's quarters not it's bow, like running the bridles to the windlass. With this arrangement the drogue can be setup attached to the chain plates and all that's required is get it out and toss.. No rigging required...

[rtbates]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

I maintain that the move to light, fast "performance cruisers" inspired by "trickle down" ocean racing designs has in some respects compromised the ability of some newer boat models to heave to or to keep their long, narrow, skegless rudders in a bothered seaway. All the aspects that make such boats champions of fast, comfortable sailing in moderate conditions can go a bit pear-shaped in the bad stuff, which is sometimes unavoidable.

By the same token, I see a lot of wide, handhold-deficient saloons on modern cruisers that look to me like an invitation to break limbs or to stave in ribs in a seaway, where it's a circus act under even some moderate conditions to rappel from the forepeak to the cockpit using all four limbs.

I agree with you that the JSD can, reportedly, act too well. Ideally, you are moving fast enough to provide effective steerage even when moving diagonally down a wave face, but not beyond hull speed. So you would want the ability to "shorten drogue" as needed, and that would require significant mechanical advantage and attachments at the stern.

IF the drogue is sized correctly the vessel does NOT go down the wave. It gets held back as the wave passes below. That is is WHOLE,100% reason for being tied on your ass end..

[Dave]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

What complete and utter balderdash.


The biggest issue with JSDs is they can be too good and slow the boat far too much. In my view this is nearly worse then going too fast, especially in a fin and spade modern boat. You can find yourself almost stopped in the troughs and that's a scary thing.

In my view if you have enormous pressure from a drogue of the stern, there's too much out.

Dave

Has anyone made their JSD adjustable ? (in amount deployed)

I ask because on a recent 42 ft catamaran delivery we towed warps twice for different reasons - neither were in harsh conditions.

The first was in the evening, sun going down, running downwind, jib only, 15 knots with 2 M waves, within the hour conditions grew to 20 knots and 3 M waves, and soon 25 knot winds and bigger waves. Soon, we were hitting 17 knots launching off the crests, unsure of just how big conditions would get. The night watches were inexperienced and we wanted to just settle things down a bit. So we towed a bight of spare anchor rode with the chain in the middle to keep it down. Had a great sleep with rookie at the helm of a stable boat still doing 8 to 10 knots.

The second, we were in pleasant 15 to 20 knot conditions, again downwind and our boatspeed would put us into an unknown port just after midnight. With a hanky size jib were going too fast. Again, we needed to slow things down and out went the same warps. Arrived just after sunrise.

My point is that there are plenty of times that dragging something can come in handy. I want my JSD to be adjustable. Either built in sections that can be used "in series" or "in parallel" and have multiple bridal attachment points along its length. Use as much or as little as you need for any given conditions. I'm favoring the multiple sections used in parallel because it would spread the load over several attachment points, could help steering downwind, easier to deploy/retrieve...

I'm not a fan of the "all or nothing" JSD attached to monster plates. Too limiting.

Dave L38

[S/V Alchemy]

Let me try this: If you bought a 2011 Honda Civic, we could agree that it's a reliable production car suitable for on-road use in most weather. Sure, it's going to get stuck in snow, but that's the day you wait for the plows.

In order to do winter road rallying, or the Paris-Dakar race, you would have to do a fair bit of modification to meet the expected conditions, no? Can we agree that you don't take a production car off the dealer's lot and drive the Paris-Dakar AS IS?

Can you also agree that the average recreational production sailboat might also be fine for to-ing and fro-ing coastally, even for a little while in tough weather, but that the same sailboat might need and indeed should undergo some modifications for the type of weather that might require deploying a JSD? And that those modifications may take it away from being a "production boat" in terms of attachment points and seakindliness?

We've all read of production boats losing rudders, oilcanning, having injuries aboard due to open designs, having bulkheads detab, having engine mounts shear, having portlights and hatches leak or fail. These are often revealed in the open ocean in merely heavy seas, not in the sort of survival conditions in which you'd want to throw out a boat-stopping drogue.

We've all read about it here. What is so hard to grasp that not every boat sold to Joe Public is the boat equivalent of a Land Rover made to crawl across the Kalahari? Manifestly, boats are made to satisfy a number of requirements, some of which are exclusive to each other.

If you truly think that the typical production boat, like a Catalina, Beneteau Oceanis line, Jeanneau, Hanse or Hunter, is, out of the factory, ready to go into all oceanic conditions as is, fair winds to you. I'm not saying it can't be or shouldn't be done, because people can and do sail all sorts of boats all sorts of places. But that might be due to luck and skill, and not because the boat is built to take the kind of weather requiring drogues or warps.

I guess the people buying Swans, Sagas, Bristols, Shannons, Moodys and J-Boats are just idiots paying a steep premium for more teak, and that the structural integrity of their designs is just some sort of illusion or scam. You've been voyaging. See any Catalina 400s in Fiji? Any Hunters at Diego Garcia?

Did they have JSDs?

The OP's original question was about putting a series drogue on a production boat. I gave my reply that retrofitting would be a hell of a good idea...an idea I have yet to see rebutted by way of "I dragged my drogue from the existing stern cleats of my Dufour 40 in the Bass Strait and I didn't crack the gelcoat!"

[tropicalescape]

I admit I know nothing about them and was wondering would a motorcycle tire and 200 ft of rode on a 32 ft full keel tied to a 12 in horn cleat mounted in the center of the stern work, or is it too much drag? 100ft of rode?

[bangkaboat]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

dennisail: I have a normal drogue and a parachute sea anchor because I prefer the thought of the bow being held into the waves.

Each person has their own preference and though it doesnt get as bad as an anchor thread, people like their own method.
If you like the stuff witten about a Series Drogue go for it.


Mark

+1
I'm carrying a drogue & a sea anchor, just in case I need either of them. Yes, reinforcement, as Alchemy points out, is a good idea.

[capngeo]

Originally Posted by tropicalescape

I admit I know nothing about them and was wondering would a motorcycle tire and 200 ft of rode on a 32 ft full keel tied to a 12 in horn cleat mounted in the center of the stern work, or is it too much drag? 100ft of rode?

I don’t think 100’ in and of itself would do much. If I were going to haul around a dirty tire, it would be a lawn tractor (small diameter and fat) vs a motorcycle tire (large diameter and skinny). Unless on a commercial boat like a tug, a tire is just going to mark up too much.