Scuttle The Boat When Abandoning Ship?

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Frugal

Having been there and done that. The last thing in mind at the time was to scuttle. Far more important was to maintain Leprena II as an effective backup if the rescue went awry. The sink drain was left open and it was the lowest point of entry for seawater. She would have gone down in her own good time.

While I am not 10% clear on your order of events, it does not sound like you were abandoning your vessel. Rather your were leaving her for a drier location, BUT staying with her as a nearby back up location. You may even have had a line attached (hopefully one that would part easily if she suddenly went under)? Once you were rescued, what was done? Is that not the real question?

[robert sailor]

Reality is that very few female mates could single hand their boat beating into the trades for a week or more. Even those who might have the knowledge may not have the upper body strength to trim the sail properly. Reefing in increasing winds is not an easy job for many men much less a small woman. There are a lot of other skills that would be needed as well. I don't want to suggest that I'm against women in any way because I'm not but 90% of the sailing mates we have met over the years would have zero chance of single handing the boat sailing hard on the wind for days on end.

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Nice hypothetical, Dartanyan, they're around 500 miles out, or so.

It is a good idea to have talked about this before hand. I have always thought I'd take the boat to port, then meet Jim at the hospital, and I still might not do it! The reasons for my or Jim's bringing the boat to port are that it is our retirement home as well as a possession, and we would want to live on it as long as possible in any event, all our worldly possessions are here, aboard. The reason for going with him would be to offer comfort and support, which I view as a central part of our marriage, so it would be a hard decision for me, giving up our home, which would have to be scuttled, it's unrealistic to plan on finding it after 2 or 3 days, difficulty of bringing it back undamaged by a salvor could really lower its value, if it could happen, vs. being where i belong, with my man. I don't know how I'd jump. Would stay with the boat if it were what Jim wanted. You'd really want to have an abandon-ship plan in place, salvor already bargained with and on the way, who'd be your shore contact, etc.

How one worked it out is very much a couples issue, and of course, my dilemma has the woman able to sail and navigate the boat to a safe harbor. It is one of the reasons I am so big on women learning to sail independently of their partners, so that they and their partners have the competence that allows them to sleep soundly on passages, and handle emergencies.

I think it is something they should talk about together and come to their own path.

Ann

Maybe we should stay in a nice marina with air bags if we are unwilling or afraid to loose everything when the choice is between our own emotional comfort and creating an actual avoidable increased risk to others. I think the worst scenario is the incapable wife. Mine won't go, but if she would she would be sure to learn. And I presume it works with husbands too, but perhaps less frequently because of the way our cultures are usually structured. I still think the hazard to navigation thought posted by Lepke seemed closest to the mark as a possible requirement. Any actual laws on the subject hat anyone knows about?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The learning teaching thing is interesting, whos responsibility is it, the guy to teach or the lady to learn?

That's a really interesting question Dale, along with tips on how to encourage team building with a reluctant or Insecure partner.

I think in reality, it is both persons responsibility and that insecurity can manifest itself on both the teacher and student to affect how well they get in synch.

Ann, after all those years of experience are there times when you feel insecure about handling some emergency without Jim?

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Stumble

If she chooses to abandon then I would do the following...

prepare the vessel like I would if I was leaving her at the dock for a hurricane (sails stowed or lashed in place, Bimini down, dogged hatches, etc) Except :

1) everything but the bilge pump off
2) turn on all the running lights, and the anchor light
3) leave a note indicating the vessel has been abandoned taped to the companion way with contact information for the owner
4) close but do not lock the companionway
5) leave the key in the ignition
6) hoist any radar reflector or retro-reflective light reflector into the rigging.

If you have a way to track the boat, via autonomous gps reporting turn it on and plug it into the ships battery for charging if possible.

Under this scenario it is possible, though not probable that you could recover the vessel in reasonably good shape. The note and the contact information is so in case someone comes by and sees a wallowing vesssel and investigates they know that the crew weren't lost aboard, and how to contact you in the event a salvage is attempted.

So why leave it unlocked and the key in the ignition? There is a chance a Good Samaritan would come by to investigate, and make an attempt to bring her home. You are just making it as easy as possible to salvage the vessel. A thief will just break it anyway.

The tracker obviously helps to track the boat, but it can also be relayed to the USCG for securitate notices to mariners.

But no way on gods green earth would I scuttle the vessel. I don't consider it safe to do until you are onboard the rescue vessel, and I don't think the USCG cares enough to even take pop shots at the boat after the rescue is performed.

I have to concur with the bit about not trying to do much in terms of prep for scuttling a vessel. Especially since that by definition, if you're abandoning her, then you're pretty much at wits end, very sick, exhausted, & or unable to make good decisions. Along with the comments about the boat being your safe haven until you're actually on another vessel, or the helo. So that even if the idea had formerly sounded like a good one when on land, it'll probably be out of reach (& out of mind) when you do have to leaver her mid-ocean.

Note that a few of the top 3-5 reasons for leaving the vessel while she's still floating, & reasonably seaworthy are; exhaustion & or fear, loss of steering. Usually meaning a component of the rudder itself, not the steering gear. One that's fully preventable in most cases should the skipper choose to actively inspect, & preventatively rebuild the vessel's rudder.
For some reason this idea seems unpopular, even on here, yet it's very common for boats to need rudder work (rebuilding) in the course of a circumnavigation. So... why not do it before it causes a crisis?

Regarding the above quoted abandoning checklist, if I had the time to do much of what's listed, I'd also consider deploying a drogue (& tying the rudder in place on centerline) just prior to leaving the boat. At least under conditions where it's probable that the boat will remain afloat, & that later salvage is a possible option. Albeit, a distant one. But perhaps viable if one partner has to be removed due to reasons of health, & the other has a few moments to tidy things up prior to accompanying them in leaving the boat.
Thoughts?

Note: If one's vehement about scuttling the boat, & (weather) conditions allow, you could possibly have the rescuing vessel crush her. Assuming that said rescuer is a large steel ship, & that nothing on your vessel would foul her screws or rudder when doing so. Otherwise, the only "safe" way to do so is to nail your boat with an RPG, or Naval gunfire.

[Stumble]

Uncivilized,

Good call on the rudder lock. But I wouldn't toss a drogue.

In the event that someone comes by to inspect the vessel it runs the risk of fouling them, and adding complexity to a potential rescue. It could also drag under the vessel and foul the rudder or keel without anyone watching it. I don't know that I think it's wrong, just I doubt the benefits outweigh the negatives.

To me the goal should be 1) to keep the vessel afloat, 2) make seeing it as easy as possible and reducing the navigation risk, 3) make it as easy to salvage as possible.


Of course my list assumes a good amount of time to prepare, and a reasonably healthy person to pull it off. If either of those aren't true then all bets are off. I would do what I can and get on with my life and an insurance claim.

I guess it's worth nothing that the USCG does not generally scuttle ships, it marks them as searched and inspected and let's them float off.

[Goodall_M1]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

There have been 2 threads on CF this year involving searches for abandoned sailboats.

In the past, it had been the practice only to abandon a ship that was sinking, and rescue was basically not possible unless very close to shore, and often, not even then.

Today, with solar power for "In Reach", it is possible that one could accurately track an abandoned vessel, and rescue it.

The question I'm turning over in my mind is, should we, in an emergency where we have to abandon the ship, still scuttle her, as was the "law of the sea"? The reason for the custom was to remove the hazard to navigation that the abandoned vessel becomes.

There are some pretty big boats out cruising now, not the 30 footers of yore. How'd you like to run up on the deserted Gunboat, or even a 50 ft. monohull?

How real a danger do you think it is, and what are your reasons for the opinion? Should we scuttle, or not scuttle?

Thanking you in advance for sharing your thinking.

Ann

Something related to this thread has just popped up on the UK news..

The barnacle-covered wreck of a catamaran abandoned during a rescue off the US east coast three years ago has been found on a Hebridean beach.

The four crew members of the Be Good Too were rescued by the US Coastguard 300 miles (482.8km) off the coast of Virginia on 14 January 2014.

The boat came ashore on the west side of South Uist on Monday.

The crew of Be Good Too encountered stormy weather three days after leaving a marina in Jersey City.

They were airlifted to safety by a coastguard helicopter.


Boat wrecked off US in 2014 found on Scottish island - BBC News

[El Pinguino]

I can not imagine being in an abandon ship situation where I could find the time to say... 'hang on a mo.... just popping down below to set the scuttling charges' as an F10 is whistling away....

Big ships? Scuttling? Nope.. they just get off.....

[GordMay]

FWIW: An earlier discussion ➥ http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...oo-110024.html

[JPA Cate]

As Pelagic wisely states, both people are of course each responsible for their decisions. In my apparently contradictory posts quoted above, what I was getting at in the first instance, was the difficulties experienced by some of the men who would like their wives who are disinterested in sailing face. What can he do if she won't learn? How can he fulfill his obligation as skipper towards the welfare of crew and vessel under that condition. If he is suddenly disabled?

In the second instance I was pointing to the legal and possibly, moral, obligation he has for her welfare. And there is a valid question as to where the obligation stops.

Pelagic, no not every possible emergency, because Jim is stronger than me, and I rely upon his strength. Also, I think he is better in an emergency, I think he thinks more clearly than I, and he has more knowledge. I would not let being afraid stop me, though, I would shorten sail in the beating situation, and loaf along. I would have to do it sooner than we would have, and I can manage all of that okay, still, I hope.

The yellowbrick solution to tracking the boat would work, but it is expensive, and I don't think many cruisers would want to use one all the time. The Spot sort seem to be less, and may have more appeal.

Thanks for the link to the previous thread, Gord.

Ann

[seahag]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Reality is that very few female mates could single hand their boat beating into the trades for a week or more. Even those who might have the knowledge may not have the upper body strength to trim the sail properly. Reefing in increasing winds is not an easy job for many men much less a small woman. There are a lot of other skills that would be needed as well. I don't want to suggest that I'm against women in any way because I'm not but 90% of the sailing mates we have met over the years would have zero chance of single handing the boat sailing hard on the wind for days on end.

Come to Alaska and say that and take your pick from probably thousands of women who could kick your ass physically in any fashion. I hope none of them see this post LOL. What makes a man more able to sail into the wind? That's serious nonsense. Welcome to 1971 dude, there's a change coming.

[DumnMad]

LOL I'm 76, there's plenty of women stronger than me, but not many 76 year-olds

[Training Wheels]

I guess I don't have to worry about scuttling, as my boat won't sink.

[s/v Moondancer]

Six good friends and past crew on my boat abandoned a boat between Bermuda and the USA because of a lost rudder. The boat had the Bermuda race tracking system on board. The owner went out with a commercial tug to get the boat 200 to300 miles offshore.

The cost of the tow $28,000 cash up front before the tug left the dock.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by s/v Moondancer

Six good friends and past crew on my boat abandoned a boat between Bermuda and the USA because of a lost rudder. The boat had the Bermuda race tracking system on board. The owner went out with a commercial tug to get the boat 200 to300 miles offshore.

The cost of the tow $28,000 cash up front before the tug left the dock.

Cost of the tow a resonable investment, if he wanted the boat back. That's a long salvage tow, but at least it would follow the tug, unlike the boat we saw that had lost its keel. But, what we're looking at here, is a tracer for an event, and I'm thinking the Spot, if run off a charger on the ships batteries, which will last longer, might be a more affordable tracer than the Yellowbrick.

If you're circumnavigating, the economics of it might or might not fit in.

There's also the issue of to scuttle or not, to remove the hazard to navigation. If a collision with Training Wheels' "unsinkable" boat damaged mine, and we survived to tell the tale, there would be consequences. Ours is a litigious society.

Almost 2 yrs. ago now, a catamaran on a delivery was lost--sadly, with her crew; and since it probably went ashore, or bits of it did, those bits would have been recycled by locals, and we would never hear anything.

Ann