Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-09-2018, 13:03   #1
Registered User
 
SVRocinante's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the wind blows - Currently in Nantucket
Boat: Hanse, 400e - 40ft
Posts: 432
Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

So, here’s a question for you.

I’m on my way north from Rockport, MA to Casco Bay. The first leg of my route is 43nm long on a heading of 20° and will take me about 8hrs at an average speed of say 5.5 kts. Of course, as is usually the case, the wind is dead on my nose!

With no geographical boundries to force my hand, I typically tack back and forth on more or less reciprocal angles to my route at some randomly determined interval with no real sense of how long to stay on a particular tack. In essense, ignoring acting on a wind shift, I stay on a tack until “I think I’m going to far away from my route line” - not exactly an analytical or tactical approach!

So, assuming the wind stays dead on my route line for the duration, how do I determine the most efficient, i.e. fastest route? Is it simply the fewest number of tacks? i.e. 4hr run - tack - 4hr run to waypoint in this example?

That just doesn’t seem right to me...

Apologies if this is a silly question, but now that we’ve been out here for a few months, I’m starting to look at how to sail more and do so effectively!

Thanks again,
Carlos
S/V Rocinante
__________________
Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante
SVRocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 13:24   #2
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, in Tasmania, Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,551
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

Hi, Carlos,

Can't tell you how to manage this, but we are generally happy to sail within 10-15 deg of the desired course. If there is any help from the current, favor the tacks on that side. We also will follow wind shifts, where possible, to speed up on, or point higher. If it is at sea, there is usually a more comfortable tack, the one more with the way the waves go, and we will favor that where possible. Often shallow water gets sort of square, short chop above about 18 knots, and that will tend to make you want to go slower. Often the boat will go faster with a reef in, and so you might want two, or to go to a smaller headsail. Keep the boat up on her feet, as it were.* Depending on how the waves actually are, sometimes you need to be a tiny bit over-powered to work through the short chop. Play with it, and if necessary, take notes, and you'll work out something that suits. It is very unusual in our experience, for the wind to not vary; you can consider yourself lucky if yours is consistent for a whole daytime day's worth of sailing. Figure that you'll have to sail further than the actual 40 miles. Brain glitch, but I can't remember right now if it's 2/3 or only 1/3 (approximately) further.

*Minimize heel angle, with max heel, you make more leeway and it is less comfortable. Sometimes traveling the main down a bit will ease it. Keep the rudder angles smaller, she'll go more directly towards the goal, and it's easier on the boat, as well. You may, using trim alone, be able to get her to sail herself around 30 to 40 deg. off the wind. Saves wear and tear on the autopilot.

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 14:52   #3
Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
 
Wotname's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,432
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

I reckon Ann has nailed it; it's very good advice.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 15:42   #4
Registered User
 
Snowpetrel's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Hobart
Boat: Alloy Peterson 40
Posts: 3,919
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

Interesting Question. I guess in the absence of any outside factors one tack is the most efficient way to do it, though judging it perfectly is hard. And when you get out towards the layline a small change in wind direction can make for big inefficiencies as you either overlay the course, or get headed. But in reality there are almost always other factors that effect your planning such as, current, land, expected windshifts, day night cycles and preferred tacks.

Without any sort of order here are a couple of ways it can play out.

Current, often you can end up tacking very close to shore to avoid an adverse current, or going wide to avoid it. Otherwidlse staying in the current somewhere in between to use a favorable one.

Headlands and land effect both the currents and wind. Sometimes its better to hook in behind them getting some shelter from the sea and possibly a back eddy of current, other times tacking on the headland works better, using the way the headland bends the wind to advantage on both tacks. Mountain ranges and valleys inland can really bend the wind even far offshore. Using these bends to advantage can make a big difference.

Day/night cycles: safest option is to tack offshore at night and inshore during the day. But seabreeze and landbreezes can modify the wind to your advantage. In light airs racers will often hug the coast to benefit from these.

Comfort/favored tack: Often its easier to cook, sleep or use the toilet on one tack. Sometimes making sure the boat is on the right tack for mealtimes makes a big difference. It may also be that the seastate makes one tack easier and more comfortable than the other. This can be used to your advantage for mealtimes and repairs.

Tacking when you need to change sails can also be a big help. Especially with hank on headsails. Sometimes it's easier to reef the main on one tack, and heaving to can make it even easier. Rolling away a bit of headsail during a tack can also make sense.

Strategically planning tacks so that they occur at suitable times is another factor. On the square riggers we often did a tack on the watch change, and we avoided being forced to tack during mealtimes. It was often also better to tack in daylight if possible.
__________________
My Ramblings
Snowpetrel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 15:51   #5
Registered User
 
SVRocinante's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the wind blows - Currently in Nantucket
Boat: Hanse, 400e - 40ft
Posts: 432
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

Thanks Ann!

Let me play it back a sec to see if you can’t help me zoom in on the answer.
Everything you mentioned is great advice, my challenge is in determining when and how often to tack under a given condition in order to minimize the amount of time spent getting from point A to point B.

So for example, let’s say I’m taking this particular piece of advice:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA Cate View Post
...at sea, there is usually a more comfortable tack, the one more with the way the waves go, and we will favor that where possible.
How long do I stay on that heading before tacking again?
That is, if I have enough sea room, do I stay on that tack until I reach a point that the reciprocal heading will take me to my final waypoint?

In my particular example, if I did the math correctly, assuming a 35° angle to the wind, I would be almost 15nm east of my desired end point before tacking onto the reciprocal track to get to my final destination.

The math seems to indicate that’s the way to go... that is, since the distance covered is the same regardless of how many tacks I make at a given angle and you invariably lose speed while tacking, then the fewer tacks the better.

It’s just hard wrapping my head around the idea that sailing that far off my intended course yields the fastest time from point A to point B.

Am I correct in my understanding?

Thanks again
Carlos
__________________
Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante
SVRocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 15:54   #6
Registered User
 
SVRocinante's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Where ever the wind blows - Currently in Nantucket
Boat: Hanse, 400e - 40ft
Posts: 432
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

Thank you Snowpetrel - great tips!
__________________
Carlos & Maria
S/V Rocinante
SVRocinante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 16:47   #7
Moderator
 
Don C L's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Channel Islands, CA
Boat: 1962 Columbia 29 MK 1 #37
Posts: 14,361
Images: 66
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

All good stuff here... Yeah it always ends up being farther than you hoped. All things being equal, which they never are, one tack is my preference, and if you can figure out exactly where to tack count yourself as a good navigator. It’s kind of a fun challenge. In my neighborhood winds being bent around the landforms always ends up figuring in, but also the sea state. So if taking that big long leg takes you out into seas that will spill your coffee, and slow you down, then maybe better to hug a coastline and tack five or six times, all depends... and can your cruising boat hold a course 35 degrees to the wind? If so, I’m jealous!
Don C L is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 16:50   #8
Moderator
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,197
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

My observation is that wind direction is very seldom really consistent. To me, this means paying some attention to COG and tacking on headers rather than some arbitrary time schedule. Again, the more variable the wind direction, the closer one should stick to the rhumb line. In your example of one hitch on each tack, if you get an unfavorable shift when way out from the RL, you are screwed!

If this sounds more like racing than your cruising environment, well, getting to windward is just as hard cruising as racing, and your harder work is rewarded by more distance gained towards your destination.

Finally, in your example you assume "a 35 degree angle to the wind". You must mean sailing at 35 d apparent. For most cruising boats, this means something like 100 degrees between tacks at best, and often worse than that. Do take that into account when thinking about your plans.

There is an alternative plan: some years ago we met an older British yottie, out in the wilds of the South Pacific. After a couple of rums, he confided in me that he NEVER sailed to windward. However, he said,he often changed his destination...

Cruising is what you make of it!

Jim

PS the time and speed lost in a tack is pretty inconsequential compared to the gains afforded by being on the favored tack when viewed in a cruising situation... a couple of minutes lost against potentially major gains.
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 16:50   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bellingham
Boat: Outbound 44
Posts: 9,319
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

On a relatively short windward passage like this, it is usually a safer play to add a few extra tacks, instead of trying to make it with only one tack. If the wind stayed exactly out of the destination, then less tacks is quicker. In reality the wind direction will shift over that time. Since in this case you don't have a guess as to which way it will shift, it is better to not get too far from the rhumb line so that you don't end up 20 miles off the line and then get headed.

One thing we sometimes do while cruising is throw in a power tack. So we sail on the preferred tack, then power ,pointing extra high on the shorter and worse tack. This gets us a lot of sailing time without dragging out the passage too long.

Your 35* made good sounds optomistic.
__________________
Paul
Paul L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 16:57   #10
Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
 
Wotname's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,432
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

My understanding that once you get more than 10 -15 degrees off the desired course, you are getting too far away from the local influences (wind shifts, tide, sea state etc) that are always varying and you can't take advantages of change that might assist you.

I'm sure there is a better (and simpler) way of explaining this! I know I have read better explanations in "how to sail books" of yesteryear .

To make good progress to windward you have to take any and every advantage as they present themselves. The conditions are always changing and once you get too far away (in degrees i.e. 10 -15) from the desired course, you loose the ability to take advantage of the changes. So when the lay point is far away, you tacks are longer in miles and decrease as you approach the waypoint.

E.G. Tack every time the wind shifts against you (heads you away from the lay line) and head up every time the wind lifts you closer to the lay line.

But really work though all the points that Ann made above.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 17:01   #11
Registered User
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPBs
Posts: 12,891
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVRocinante View Post
That is, if I have enough sea room, do I stay on that tack until I reach a point that the reciprocal heading will take me to my final waypoint?
Everything else being constant, that s the best solution. However everything else is rarely constant.


You need to consider possible wind and current shifts.


A couple of extra tacks over 40 odd miles is not really an issue and staying a few miles inside the lay lines will give you more opportunity to take advantage of any shifts.
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 17:07   #12
Registered User
 
Suijin's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bumping around the Caribbean
Boat: Valiant 40
Posts: 4,625
Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

If all other things are equal (ie no preferred tack for sea state, boat does not sail on one tack or the other, no forecasted backing or clocking, etc.) the offshore racer’s tactic is to stay closer, relatively speaking , to the rhumb line. Why? Because there is less chance of you being caught out on a flyer on a given tack and being headed and then in a bit of a mess. If you’re doing 30 nm. tacks, you’re not losing much by tacking. The further you go out to one side the greater risk you put yourself at that the wind will turn and &$@% you. So, stay close to the rhumb line to keep your options open for what the weather delivers.

Of course if you have gribs that show it makes sense to go out 100 nm. To one side or the other to play developing weather, do it.
__________________
"Having a yacht is reason for being more cheerful than most." -Kurt Vonnegut
Suijin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 18:52   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,007
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

Your specific question was what make the most sense if the wind doesn't change.

The answer to that exact question is it does not matter. It is the same distance sailed if you tack once, or 20 times. So do what ever feels right at the moment.

The issue in the real world, is that you can not count on the wind not changing. The risk is that you sail far to the east of your rhumb line, and right after you tack, the wind backs, and you are head to wind--again.

This is the rational for staying "close to" rhumb line, so you can take good advantage of a wind shift, or at least not get totally hosed by it.

How close to the rhumb line is "close"? That is a tough question. and not one with a simple answer to apply to all situations.

Of course if you have good reason to expect a wind shift, then head off on the appropriate tack and cross your fingers...
billknny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 19:50   #14
cruiser

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Pangaea
Posts: 10,856
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

Hoist the iron jib and motor sail when able to do so.
Kenomac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2018, 20:09   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Currently Tasmania after Pacific crossing
Boat: Catalina 42
Posts: 255
Re: Sailing into headwind - cruising, not racing

Harking back to Eric Hiscocks books, he explained how it was beneficial to reduce tacking legs to your destination inside a imaginary triangle, the apex being your desired destination. The theory was that on continuing long tacks, if the wind changed against you, you were no further along. Apologies if this has already been covered.
Amnesia II is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruising, head, racing, sail, sailing, wind


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Designs based on racing rules vs not john61ct Monohull Sailboats 17 27-05-2018 09:36
Wtd YouTbe video - several racing boats crashing into headland KrazySailing Seamanship & Boat Handling 0 18-01-2016 16:40
90' USED RACING TRIMARAN COMES COMPLETE WITH THE WINNING TRANSPACK RACING CREW Sand crab Multihull Sailboats 6 02-09-2014 21:40

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.