Sailing for dummies and kids

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

At the risk of monopolising the thread, for which I apologise, something else just popped into my head.

I just recently heard from the Falklands that a friend had arrived, after sailing from NZ, solo. Having tried to track his progress, I was surprised as well as delighted.

I've known him since I spotted him and his brother using the bowsprit of the family sailboat as a jungle gym/climbing frame. They were hanging up side down under it when I saw them.

Admittedly over relatively shallow water - picture a big, uncompromising, whalebacked steel expedition sailing boat, lifting keel hence shallow draft, preparing for a trip to Antarctica in a mud wallow alongside a dilapidated wharf near my home.

He was two years old. Where were the parents?

Getting on with jobs in the boat, while the boys discovered the world.

The boys are still discovering the world, the older one runs the biggest charter vessel operating in the Antarctic and Patagonia region, and the one I know was so laconic by the standards of any age group, let alone his contemporaries of the Facebook and Twitter generation, that he omitted to mention it recently on his rudimentary substitute for a blog when he passed Cape Horn, solo.

Those boys were more safety conscious, in the true sense of the world, than any kids their age I'd met before or since.

They routinely did "dangerous" things, unsupervised, but they did them safely, because they'd always known from their own experience, intelligence and instinct, that they were potentially dangerous.

In today's world, those kids would have been removed from the care of their parents, who were clearly unfit.

- - - -

I struck up a sort of acquaintanceship, and did some engineering work on the boat, but one of my family befriended them or was befriended, and sailed with them to Antarctica, so I know a bit more of the backstory.

The skipper didn't even wear anything on his feet until about 52 South, let alone a harness, and probably still doesn't wear a harness thirty years later.

(In the interim, he's clocked up hundreds of thousands of miles in the deep south.)

If a halyard fouled on a steaming light he would go up the rig like a monkey, swarming hand over hand up a stay and back on deck before the person hauling the halyard had time to notice anything amiss. Not hooked on. At sea. In the Southern Ocean.

- - - - -

I'm not telling this story as a model for others to copy. It's so far from the norm that it can only serve as a sort of metaphor... or perhaps, a hyperbole, to help us question what safety is.

I've been mulling over this topic since I read the following story, from a comment on Lynn and Larry Pardey's excellent site (which I recommend to your attention, but once again, they're not a model, they're a metaphor: we don't necessarily want to emulate them, but they help us question our assumptions)

You Can

Andrew,

If any of the "child protection agencies" that abound out there today, had seen me, my brothers and our friends when we were children, they would have removed us from our parents custody and our parents would have been charged with neglect. We hung around in the tops of trees, swan unsupervised in wild rivers etc. There were bear/mountain lions and poisonous snakes in the woods behind our houses. But we knew how to avoid them

The world was different back then I guess.

I always wear a tether when I go on deck (unless it is flat water and calm - I know - complacency!). I was once nailed by a big greenie at the same time that the boat got pushed sideways. I had a hand on the boat and managed to hang on- at the expense of almost ripping my shoulder out of joint.

My tether is my last defense.

I think we all need to have the level of safety equipment that makes us (and our families) comfortable. I also think that this level of equipment decreases as we gain experience/skill.

We've probably managed to scare off the OP by now. Let's hope not.

[samsiam]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Andrew,

If any of the "child protection agencies" that abound out there today, had seen me, my brothers and our friends when we were children, they would have removed us from our parents custody and our parents would have been charged with neglect. We hung around in the tops of trees, swan unsupervised in wild rivers etc. There were bear/mountain lions and poisonous snakes in the woods behind our houses. But we knew how to avoid them

The world was different back then I guess.

I always wear a tether when I go on deck (unless it is flat water and calm - I know - complacency!). I was once nailed by a big greenie at the same time that the boat got pushed sideways. I had a hand on the boat and managed to hang on- at the expense of almost ripping my shoulder out of joint.

My tether is my last defense.

I think we all need to have the level of safety equipment that makes us (and our families) comfortable. I also think that this level of equipment decreases as we gain experience/skill.

We've probably managed to scare off the OP by now. Let's hope not.

Not at all, I love all this feedback and while not a sailor...yet...land based adventures have been many over the years.

As I mentioned, we live in Thailand and this country is not the nanny state, rules are made here to be flexible, if not broken.

My kids play in the river nearby, we climb the mountain to the bat cave behind our house, we have pit vipers and cobras at the back door and wild elephants in our front garden from time to time.

We have a festival here mid April for the Thai new year and it is a water fight festival, 3 days of intense water fights amongst everyone, trucks filled with people and buckets of iced water and it is relentless. No way would this get the green light back home.

Carry on please. I have more questions over the coming days, weeks, months.

As per the medical insurance and medical issues/emergencies, how do you plan for a medical issue when away at sea and miles from nowhere and help?...especially if it is one of your kids ?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by samsiam

Not at all, I love all this feedback and while not a sailor...yet...land based adventures have been many over the years.

As I mentioned, we live in Thailand and this country is not the nanny state, rules are made here to be flexible, if not broken.

My kids play in the river nearby, we climb the mountain to the bat cave behind our house, we have pit vipers and cobras at the back door and wild elephants in our front garden from time to time.

We have a festival here mid April for the Thai new year and it is a water fight festival, 3 days of intense water fights amongst everyone, trucks filled with people and buckets of iced water and it is relentless. No way would this get the green light back home.

Carry on please. I have more questions over the coming days, weeks, months.

As per the medical insurance and medical issues/emergencies, how do you plan for a medical issue when away at sea and miles from nowhere and help?...especially if it is one of your kids ?

I would suggest you take a 'Commercial Standard' Survival at Sea course... this will teach you how to deal with your life raft, turn it the right way up... abandon the boat in an organised manner.. but most important of all... why it is a tool of absolute last resort.
You'll do the course in a pool... let your imagination add the wind and the waves to your physical efforts in the pool..
Also... you should take a Ships Masters medical course... or your wife... women tend not to faint so easy at the sight of blood like many men...
It'll teach you how to set bones.. perform a trach'... deal with burns, strokes, appendectomies.. mine was 5 days of theory and while not sure I could do any of the above... I at least know How To...

[samsiam]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I would suggest you take a 'Commercial Standard' Survival at Sea course... this will teach you how to deal with your life raft, turn it the right way up... abandon the boat in an organised manner.. but most important of all... why it is a tool of absolute last resort.
You'll do the course in a pool... let your imagination add the wind and the waves to your physical efforts in the pool..
Also... you should take a Ships Masters medical course... or your wife... women tend not to faint so easy at the sight of blood like many men...
It'll teach you how to set bones.. perform a trach'... deal with burns, strokes, appendectomies.. mine was 5 days of theory and while not sure I could do any of the above... I at least know How To...

Great, Ships Masters medical sounds the go. I was planning to go to Singapore and do an Emergency First Response course there as it is in English and thorough. It is more a step up to paramedic level than just a first aid type course. But the ships masters sounds even better and most likely relevant to the sea and boats.

I had also thought to do many safety drills on the boat at first and with the kids. But the Sea Course you mention sounds much better idea.

I have no issue with blood and guts.

I pulled burning bodies out of a plane crash once a long time ago.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by samsiam

Hi, I'm new.

Can I ask some seriously naive, inexperienced and most likely dumb to a lot of you...questions here ?

Please feel free to move this thread if there is a better location for such innocence.

I am thinking about a life of sailing, but I have no experience.

I am 50, have kids, retired at 40 odd and looking to move on to another adventure...maybe.

It is a mind boggling challenge.

Anyway, I have lots and lots of questions, just wondering if I can ask them here, if not, please let me know where.

Cheers.

Get out there and DO it -- and without a lot of presure on your kids, who are probably old enough to form firm opinions of their own, which means that if you push them on one, they'll go in the other way just to prove that they can form their own opinions.

Find good classes for them, and good lessons for you, and take them SEPARATELY-- you can work together later, after you don't have to correct every little thing they do. If they have fun doing it with peers they're far more likely to develop an affinity for it.

Join a sailing club -- one WITH FAMILIES IN IT -- like NOW. Yesterday if you can't. Explore this lifestyle thoroughly.

That said, I had the same call. I was sure I would love it, and it did. It may speak to you for some reason you don't recognize right now. I can pinpoint TWO very strong things that drew me to it. I had done very little sailing in my life, took it up at age 62 and just before my 65th birthday moved aboard and have never looked back.

But what are the odds that you will ALL feel that way? That's going to be a very tough one, friend. Put yourself in your kids' shoes and what you love about it (for instance, relative isolation while you're sailing) goes against the very nature of pre-teens and teens. Doesn't mean they won't like it. I know kids those ages who LOVE it. But it would be easy for your enthusiasm, coupled with your parent status, to turn them off to it, so really think it all out, go a little slowly and give them a chance to fall in love with it too.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by samsiam

Thanks for the replies.

I shall pop up some questions shortly and maybe this thread could just plod along as a Q & A type thing for newbies.

Anyway, in relation to a couple of questions above...I had discussed this with the kids for some time and we decided last xmas to go and try it out, see if we like it. See if we like the type of boat I want and if we all like sailing, particulalry the kids.

I had been on a sail boat a few times before, the longest a few days. I also worked on a prawn trawler as a youngster at the tender age of 17ish.

So I found a boat for 5 days around Indonesia and we said lets go, if we like it great, lets research and think about it more seriously. If we do not like it, then its a no brainer, forget it.

We loved it, the kids loved it and had a great time and this was not a great boat, was a tad rough and it was in the wet season also, no great storms or anything, but it was wet.

So the decision was made to pursue it some more and we are going back there for 6 weeks in a month or so for some more, but only a few days sailing, the rest surfing and looking at boats.

I live in Thailand, my kids are half Thai and they are used to some adventure and certainly not a cushy life.

I am fortunate enough to have my own income from investments and such, so while not a mega fortune, still enough to be comfortable I would believe.

Anyway, more later.

Cheers.

Well then ... you have leapt over some of the biggest hurdles already! I would suggest you do a longer cruise together later. Let the captain in on your plans, go some place beautiful and very interesting as suggested above. Make sure the Captain gives all kids a chance to *really* make decisions and *really* be in charge of the boat (of course he would take over in an emergency. But also make sure YOU do it, so your kids see first hand that you know what you're doing. But you want them competent too.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Get out there and DO it -- and without a lot of presure on your kids, who are probably old enough to form firm opinions of their own, which means that if you push them on one, they'll go in the other way just to prove that they can form their own opinions.

Find good classes for them, and good lessons for you, and take them SEPARATELY-- you can work together later, after you don't have to correct every little thing they do. If they have fun doing it with peers they're far more likely to develop an affinity for it.

Join a sailing club -- one WITH FAMILIES IN IT -- like NOW. Yesterday if you can't. Explore this lifestyle thoroughly.

That said, I had the same call. I was sure I would love it, and it did. It may speak to you for some reason you don't recognize right now. I can pinpoint TWO very strong things that drew me to it. I had done very little sailing in my life, took it up at age 62 and just before my 65th birthday moved aboard and have never looked back.

But what are the odds that you will ALL feel that way? That's going to be a very tough one, friend. Put yourself in your kids' shoes and what you love about it (for instance, relative isolation while you're sailing) goes against the very nature of pre-teens and teens. Doesn't mean they won't like it. I know kids those ages who LOVE it. But it would be easy for your enthusiasm, coupled with your parent status, to turn them off to it, so really think it all out, go a little slowly and give them a chance to fall in love with it too.

Good advice... don't try running before you can walk... I've seen big men crumble as they see their fantasies turn to nightmares...
Its not the stuff of movies... its worse... you can't just stand up and walk out... so go slowly and with pleasure and fun on the way..
Enjoy the journey... the destination is just an excuse...

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Good advice... don't try running before you can walk... I've seen big men crumble as they see their fantasies turn to nightmares...
Its not the stuff of movies... its worse... you can't just stand up and walk out... so go slowly and with pleasure and fun on the way..
Enjoy the journey... the destination is just an excuse...

I also think you should have a two-boat plan.

The first boat you buy should be big enough that you can all sail it and feel confident in what you're doing, but not a monster-sized boat. You will eventually need lots of room, but really, cruising can be like camping on the water. I have figured out how to sleep six people on my boat -- but that means two close friends sleeping between the two settees on back cushions. Where the REAL problem would come would be during the day. The cockpit can't hold that many.

First boat, my suggestion is get a big enough one that you can all sleep in *relative* privacy (you can even put up shower curtains at night) but you aren't *completely* on top of each other during the day. It gets old real fast.

When you're all really competent sailors, get a bigger boat so you don't make yourselves all crazy on longer cruises.

If you can afford that, and of course if you all work on the first boat and get it in really good shape, you may be able to sell it for more than you paid for it, esp. if you shop smart. Just don't put more into it than you can get back lightly since *everyone's* finances have an eventual limit. You ahve to look at rigging and some other things like tires on a car. No rational person expects their first set of tires to go 100,000 miles.

[samsiam]

Two boats huh ??

Well, not sure that will happen but appreciate the sentimant.

I am thinking to go and check this lot out, waiting to see how much they charge for 7 days.

Sailing School Thailand | Learn to Sail - IYT | Fast Track Courses

[samsiam]

The above company is quite expensive, but may well give them a go in October.

I am not going to ask how to sail questions here, more about life and how to go about things, convenience and problems etc.

Can anyone advise about 'animals' onboard, not the kids, but say a cat or such and what problems pop up for visitation to various countries.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by samsiam

The above company is quite expensive, but may well give them a go in October.

I am not going to ask how to sail questions here, more about life and how to go about things, convenience and problems etc.

Can anyone advise about 'animals' onboard, not the kids, but say a cat or such and what problems pop up for visitation to various countries.

Pets can be a real problem. Some decades ago I considered moving abroad for a couple of years and found that it would have been extremely hard on my cat. England was among the worst. He would have been held in quarantine for ... six months. I have no idea whether that is still the law or not.

Go to my blog in a couple of days, because I'm going to show how I keep my cat both safe and off other people's boats. And that's a real issue, because some people are very allergic to cats and will be quite upset if your get gets off your boat and on to others'.

[rgscpat]

The rules for bringing pets into the UK (England etc.) were relaxed about a year and a half ago or so, and bringing a pet is do-able with some advance planning. The "authorised carrier" part, however, might be a stumbling block; perhaps someone knows whether this would be a barrier to pets arriving by yacht.

https://www.gov.uk/take-pet-abroad/overview
https://www.gov.uk/take-pet-abroad/overview

Travelling within the EU (or into the EU from another ‘listed’ country)
When travelling to or returning to the UK from another EU or non-EU listed country your pet needs:

a microchip
a rabies vaccination (make sure your pet is microchipped first or the vaccination won’t count)
a pet passport or official third country veterinary certificate
tapeworm treatment (for dogs only)
You must also use an authorised carrier and an approved route.

You must wait 21 days from the date of the rabies vaccination before travelling.


(Canada and the USA are non-EU listed countries that can therefore participate in the pet travel scheme.)

[samsiam]

Thanks.

Wondering about the pacific countries also and particularly Australia and SEA.

I know Oz is very restrictive, but just wondering how people cope with it as people do travel with pets on boats, particularly cats.

While it would not be a great deal to leave them where we are planning to leave all our things, the cat is my little girls and it would be a nice companion for her to be responsible for.

[Mary Flower]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

If you want to search this forum, there are already answers to almost any conceivable question .... but it's not always that easy to find them.

The trick is to use Google, because the forum's built-in search capability is frankly incapable.

To search for, say "how do I jibe safely" :

type the search string into Google like this: (from the word "site", you have to get it exactly the same as I've shown, no extra spaces or typos)

how do I jibe safely site:cruisersforum.com

This will restrict the results to include this site only, which doesn't mean you can believe everything you read, but by frequenting one site, you'll eventually work out who to take notice of on which topics.

It's still hard for a newcomer to ask good questions or come up with good search strategies, because sailing terms are so specific and unless you can come up with the right question, it can be hard to find the right answer.

An added complication in some cases: taking for example the word "jibe", there are two correct spellings (the other is "gybe" which is common in Brit English speaking countries), and many incorrect ones...

Most libraries have great books to get you over the initial knowledge vacuum hurdle, and leave you with at least some basis to ask questions from.

Diagrams are much better than words, especially words written by people who may not understand your question, may not actually know the answer, of may just not be very good at explaining that particular thing at that particular moment.

It's made worse by many questions from newcomers being impossible to answer, because they are based on faulty ideas and assumptions about how the basics work.

Whereas newbies who have taken the trouble to glean some information can often usefully and efficiently fill in the gaps at a venue like this, by asking comprehensible (and interesting) questions about the things they are having trouble understanding, or putting into a real context, from a couple of good 'how to' books.


Even well-crafted questions won't ALWAYS get good answers, but they usually will.

Confused or confusing questions almost never will ... or the good answers will be buried in dross.

THAT is one of the most thorough, most insightful and most intelligent answers I have ever seen posted on any forum.

Kudos to you, sir.

[rgscpat]

Sometimes the confused questions do present a fine opportunity for a humorous reply.

Also, the tone of a question can affect the willingness of respondents and helpfulness of replies. A tone that conveys a certain amount of prickly, unhappy, or overly narrow-minded/demanding, or unreasonable focus ("Don't even think of trying to answer my question unless you are the precise right person with the precise right answer, and even then I'll give you a hard time if I don't like the answer.") could scare people away quickly and might even tempt some people to be less than ideally helpful.

I'm thinking of an original post in a forum that was more of an unreasonable and overly specific request, and when others gave relatively useful, helpful answers that could have re-routed the op in a more fruitful direction, the op's reply was along the lines of, "Shut up, that's not what I asked for!" Sigh.