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Old 12-11-2017, 23:02   #31
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Re: Sail quantities at night

Let us not confuse advice for inexperienced sailors to practices for experienced ones. For us, we sometimes reef prophylactically, if the wind is expected to build, to protect the off watch's sleep--sleep being the clue to being rested, which is GOOD for short handed crews. But normally, we for years only sailed the wind we had, and reefed when and as necessary.

To some extent this depends on one's sense of what the weather is doing, but it also depends on your boat and its "manners". For example, mono's give you warning if they are feeling pressed. [The motion becomes lively; the rudder angles required to correct get larger. Catamarans just go faster, and if you're the kind of person who wants to see if "she'll do 25 in 18 knots true", well you might have a problem, whereas if you are reef by the numbers type with a Lagoon, you'll be safe as houses. And, of course, monos vary a lot amongst themselves.

However, the only time Jim and I ever flew a spinnaker all night long was in pretty light airs, leaving the Tuamotus for Papeete. Almost entirely, we used plain sail at night. As we have aged, we have become more conservative, protecting each others rest more and more.

Ann
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Old 13-11-2017, 06:17   #32
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Re: Sail quantities at night

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Most of the significant weather like the thunder heads in the Gulf and East Coast of Florida are sun generated and moderate at night.
That’s true near the coastdownwind of Florida and most other hot humid places, but in the tradewind Offshore squalls are far more likely at night than during daylight hours.
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Old 13-11-2017, 07:09   #33
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Re: Sail quantities at night

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Make your own decisions, but I call this really, really, really bad advice, on all accounts.
Well, I have only sailed around the world twice without incident, perhaps I should defer to you greater experience.

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Old 13-11-2017, 08:05   #34
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Re: Sail quantities at night

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Originally Posted by billknny View Post
That’s true near the coastdownwind of Florida and most other hot humid places, but in the tradewind Offshore squalls are far more likely at night than during daylight hours.
I spent MANY years flying between Hong Kong and SIN/SGN at night and witnessed hundreds, if not thousands of active CBs.....some well over 40,000'. Same with the SFO-SYD all nighters.

So I do scratch my head when told that convective weather activity only happens during the day.

I've oft wondered about what sailors do with an unavoidable approaching line of really bad weather, esp at night. We obviously circumnavigate anything we paint.

Based on what I've read here, seems like night squalls aren't much of an issue, which shocks me. I would think dropping ALL sails and starting the engine(s) would be prudent if some really bad stuff was heading your way.... Spoken by a fair weather credit card boat operator.
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Old 13-11-2017, 16:33   #35
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Re: Sail quantities at night

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Originally Posted by Benz View Post
Darkness is the last consideration when making sail changes--I like to have the optimum amount of sail out for a given wind. Since I sail pretty conservatively in daylight, that just carries on into darkness. But I hate slowing down for no other reason than dark.
Those are my thoughts as well.
Balance and comfort 24hrs and a split rig (schooner) where all my sails are on roller furling and easily furled by one

The only nighttime consideration I make is if coasting and there are a lot of unlit fishing vessels around.

I then have the main engine on and ticking away to maintain 7-8 knots but offering fast maneuverability if needed.

The added advantage of this is that with my Mark Grasser 24v alternator sized to put out 140amps at 1000rpm, we are fully charged in the morning.for very little fuel cost.

Noted, in those conditions, there is always 2 on watch.
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Old 13-11-2017, 17:37   #36
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Re: Sail quantities at night

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Originally Posted by billknny View Post
That’s true near the coastdownwind of Florida and most other hot humid places, but in the tradewind Offshore squalls are far more likely at night than during daylight hours.
Is it so?

If so, why is it?

I have not noticed this.

Now that you said it aloud, you got me thinking. If indeed this is the case. And if it is, what the explanation is.

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Old 13-11-2017, 19:25   #37
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Re: Sail quantities at night

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Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
Is it so?

If so, why is it?

I have not noticed this.

Now that you said it aloud, you got me thinking. If indeed this is the case. And if it is, what the explanation is.

barnakiel
It is absolutely so. Here is why:

Air that is hotter and or more humid than surrounding air is lighter and tends to rise. Rising air eventually gets high enough that it cools, the water condenses and makes rain. That's the very short version of the story. To begin this process we need to heat the air FROM THE BOTTOM. By putting hot humid air at the bottom of the pile, it becomes unstable and starts to rise. Under the right conditions it rises fast enough to become a violent squall.

On land, the driving force is provided by the hot ground heated by the sun. Think of a midafternoon parking lot...

On the ocean the temperature of the water hardly changes from day to night. During the day, in the tropics, the ocean is typically cooler than the air, so everything is happily stable. After the sun goes down the air starts to cool. Once it cools below the ocean temperature, suddenly it is being heated FROM THE BOTTOM by the warmer ocean water. The air now wants to rise. Once it starts to rise high enough and fast enough you have the makings of a squall.

In fact that whole process is about 85% of tropical weather...

That's the 25 cent tour of the process. Get a good book on marine weather if you really want to learn more.
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Old 13-11-2017, 19:37   #38
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Re: Sail quantities at night

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Originally Posted by Akapeterc View Post
I plan on doing several overnight trips on our current voyage north just mainly for practice for when we eventually go overseas and I am curious to know how much saIl people have up at night time when sailing. Do you always reduces sails or if it’s forecast pretty mild weather do you keep full sales up or do you just use a headsail I’m very interested to know what people actually use thanks.


Do not be afraid of the night learn to read it. The best time for deeper sleep is daytime when others can see you.
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Old 13-11-2017, 20:20   #39
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Re: Sail quantities at night

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Originally Posted by Akapeterc View Post
I plan on doing several overnight trips on our current voyage north just mainly for practice for when we eventually go overseas and I am curious to know how much saIl people have up at night time when sailing. Do you always reduces sails or if it’s forecast pretty mild weather do you keep full sales up or do you just use a headsail I’m very interested to know what people actually use thanks.
Reading through the comments, it is amazing how many people are trying to sell THE right answer. There is not a single right answer.

If you are sailing in the tradewind zones in the tropics you WILL be dealing with squalls at night. Not every night, but some. Some nights especially in the ITCZ you might be seeking them out to get a much needed speed boost, other times you will be trying to avoid them.

To be safe you MUST be able to put a reef in your sails at 2AM on a moonless night with the wind screaming and rain pouring down. You might have to do it and you need to be prepared to do it. But no matter how good you are at it, I very much doubt it is anybody's idea of fun.

The idea that it is somehow unseamanlike to slow down by preemptive reefing is silly, as is the idea that anybody who carries on with full sail at night is reckless. Yet both of these viewpoints have implied in responses here.

Trust your boat. Reef early, reef often. HAVE FUN.
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Old 13-11-2017, 21:44   #40
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Re: Sail quantities at night

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Originally Posted by billknny View Post
Reading through the comments, it is amazing how many people are trying to sell THE right answer. There is not a single right answer.
HAVE FUN.
It's funny, I did not read that in any of the posts....only that it is dependant on the boat, the crew and the conditions

Sounds very dynamic to me
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Old 13-11-2017, 22:19   #41
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Re: Sail quantities at night

I generally don't reef any more at night unless the conditions warrent it, ie very squally or I am desperately shorthanded on a boat that is poorly set up.
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Old 13-11-2017, 23:16   #42
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Re: Sail quantities at night

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Originally Posted by captmikem View Post
Well, I have only sailed around the world twice without incident, perhaps I should defer to you greater experience.

M
Well, if you don't remember being caught out at night with too much canvas in two circumnavigations, maybe you should defer to my equivalent experience and better memory.
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Old 14-11-2017, 05:55   #43
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Re: Sail quantities at night

Quote:
Originally Posted by billknny View Post
Reading through the comments, it is amazing how many people are trying to sell THE right answer. There is not a single right answer.

If you are sailing in the tradewind zones in the tropics you WILL be dealing with squalls at night. Not every night, but some. Some nights especially in the ITCZ you might be seeking them out to get a much needed speed boost, other times you will be trying to avoid them.

To be safe you MUST be able to put a reef in your sails at 2AM on a moonless night with the wind screaming and rain pouring down. You might have to do it and you need to be prepared to do it. But no matter how good you are at it, I very much doubt it is anybody's idea of fun.

The idea that it is somehow unseamanlike to slow down by preemptive reefing is silly, as is the idea that anybody who carries on with full sail at night is reckless. Yet both of these viewpoints have implied in responses here.

Trust your boat. Reef early, reef often. HAVE FUN.
I'm not sujre we were trying to sell the "right" answer- The "right" answwer is dependent on the the boat, the sail set-up, the crew etc. I noted that since we double-hand, it means that there is only one person awake and in the cockpit at night. Since fatigue is a major factor in sailing safely, we prefer to let the other person sleep, meaning we ahve to reef single-handed.

We've found that this is easier for us to do if we start reefed to the second reef - frequently we don't have to do more and if we do, we can start by furling the genua (which is easily done single-handed)

And as I noted, we actually like passage-making so we not terribly concerned with getting somewhere a couple of days later or earlier.

The worst night I had (my wife had one similar) was 6 squalls hitting us during my watch.
Once you've been through that, you decide that reefing down at dusk (when squalls become much, much harder to see) is prudent

But to each his/her own
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Old 14-11-2017, 06:21   #44
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Re: Sail quantities at night

The few times I've sailed at night (we are talking 10X or so) I've kept full sail up.

The last time though I came in from total darkness into a very busy area with a shipping channel and I missed the small red light near the bow of a container ship. (I didn't see any white light either if he had one on)

In the background, there were street lights, stop lights, range marker lights, channel buoy lights, car lights, and a few lights from boats. If I hadn't had the full 120% jib out I may have seen the ship's light before being hailed. (he was "hiding" behind my jib)

Thankfully they had been tracking me on radar. They (the pilot) hailed a sailboat going my direction ..................and I was thinking who is trying to cross the channel at night in front of a container ship?! I was maybe 500-600 yards from the channel at this point

As I was thinking this I was searching and finally saw the little red light, then turned about and answered the call.

After crossing the channel and looking back later, I saw another ship behind a very small green light. You could see a very faint outline of another container ship........
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Old 14-11-2017, 06:27   #45
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Re: Sail quantities at night

Quote:
Originally Posted by billknny View Post
It is absolutely so. Here is why:

Air that is hotter and or more humid than surrounding air is lighter and tends to rise. Rising air eventually gets high enough that it cools, the water condenses and makes rain. That's the very short version of the story. To begin this process we need to heat the air FROM THE BOTTOM. By putting hot humid air at the bottom of the pile, it becomes unstable and starts to rise. Under the right conditions it rises fast enough to become a violent squall.

On land, the driving force is provided by the hot ground heated by the sun. Think of a midafternoon parking lot...

On the ocean the temperature of the water hardly changes from day to night. During the day, in the tropics, the ocean is typically cooler than the air, so everything is happily stable. After the sun goes down the air starts to cool. Once it cools below the ocean temperature, suddenly it is being heated FROM THE BOTTOM by the warmer ocean water. The air now wants to rise. Once it starts to rise high enough and fast enough you have the makings of a squall.

In fact that whole process is about 85% of tropical weather...

That's the 25 cent tour of the process. Get a good book on marine weather if you really want to learn more.
I can see the process you are describing but I have not seen it develop squalls in tropical tradewind conditions.

I have seen tropical squalls coming from under bigger clouds (ahead of a tall cloud). However, I always associated this with air that descends, not with air that is rising. Such clouds are not day/night distributed. They just happen. Randomly, I would guess.

So, in my sailings, the two situations I have observer squalls in trade wind sailing were:

1) squalls under big, built up clouds (ahead of the cloud).
2) squalls within tropical waves - where the conditions are generally less stable than outside but clouds do not build up too much (unless the wave tends towards a TD).

So to say I understand what you are saying about air properties / movement but I did not see this generate squalls, during our passages. I will be more observant in the next one. Maybe now that you have said it aloud, I too will notice the regularity.

In fact, probably a good reason for me to grab one of those fat wise books and read up more. Indeed, last time I studied from books was ... more than twenty years ago (I studied meteorology as one of the courses in my maritime college).

Thanks for the explanation. I will study some now and catch up with whatever I missed being on the water.

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