Racing question - overtaking leeward boat

[frozenhawaiian]

when you're covered to windward it's always been common practice on basicaly every boat I've been on to pinch as high as we can to try and "tack off" the windward boat.

[s/v Jedi]

So now I am wondering what the current rules are... anyone?

[AD28]

Racing Rules : Racing Rules | Documents & Rules | ISAF | World Sailing | Official Website

[StuM]

Originally Posted by AD28

Racing Rules : Racing Rules | Documents & Rules | ISAF | World Sailing | Official Website

If you want to understand the rules, it is a good idea to also read the Case book.

http://www.sailing.org/documents/caseandcall/case-book.php

[psk125]

Thanks for the link, AD. Interpretation depends a bit on whether boats are headed up or downwind. Going upwind, L can luff up to try to pinch W off, since that could be construed as L's proper course if she was trying to get to windward. Going downwind, L would be hard pressed to show that luffing upwind was her proper course in the absence of W - she'd be going in the wrong direction!

[OldFrog75]

Originally Posted by psk125

Thanks for the link, AD. Interpretation depends a bit on whether boats are headed up or downwind. Going downwind, L would be hard pressed to show that luffing upwind was her proper course in the absence of W - she'd be going in the wrong direction!

Not necessarily true. The polars for the two boats could be very different and L reaching higher followed by a jibe later could be sailing it's proper course to the leeward mark while W is sailing dead down wind to the same mark.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by OldFrog75

Not necessarily true. The polars for the two boats could be very different and L reaching higher followed by a jibe later could be sailing it's proper course to the leeward mark while W is sailing dead down wind to the same mark.

True, although wouldn't one be hard pressed to find a boat whose polars have it going faster DDW than broad reaching & gybing?

[OldFrog75]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

True, although wouldn't one be hard pressed to find a boat whose polars have it going faster DDW than broad reaching & gybing?

true enough. I was trying to make the point that the polars might be different and the leward boat's polars might dictate a higher proper course downwind than the windward boat; that and there is always the possibility the skipper and crew of the windward boat aren't as knowledgeable or skillful as the leeward boat and choose to sail deeper.

[ausaviator]

It all gets a bit murky when you have two different designs where one points much higher than the other. Monohull versus Catamaran (ducks for cover). It's all very well to suggest that the mono can come from behind and effectively luff up the cat. In this case it would seem that there's no replacement for displacement.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by psk125

Thanks for the link, AD. Interpretation depends a bit on whether boats are headed up or downwind. Going upwind, L can luff up to try to pinch W off, since that could be construed as L's proper course if she was trying to get to windward. Going downwind, L would be hard pressed to show that luffing upwind was her proper course in the absence of W - she'd be going in the wrong direction!

What if one's flying a symmetric spi and the other flying an assy? Totally different proper courses.

[MC2019]

Nope, leeward boat has not rights.

Originally Posted by OldFrog75

Assuming both boats are on starboard tack the overtaking leeward boat must maintain it's proper course and is therefore precluded from luffing up the windward boat.

In the unlikely yet possible scenario the wind backs counter clockwise the proper course for both boats would be to tack over to port. If the slower windward boat chooses not to tack (for whatever reason) can the overtaking leeward boat demand room to tack and file a protest if the windward boat does not comply?

[psk125]

Originally Posted by OldFrog75

Not necessarily true. The polars for the two boats could be very different and L reaching higher followed by a jibe later could be sailing it's proper course to the leeward mark while W is sailing dead down wind to the same mark.

I should have been clearer: L luffing up into the wind would be hard pressed to show that it was on its proper course, heading to windward, away from the next mark to leeward. There ARE lots of possible proper courses, but heading 180º AWAY from the next mark is probably not one of them.

If L is on a tight reach with W sailing dead downwind,the situation becomes less one of overtaking than one of simple W and L, in which W would be wise to keep clear of L.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by StuM

What if one's flying a symmetric spi and the other flying an assy? Totally different proper courses.

Exactly my point. If a guy with an asymmetrical chute comes up to leeward of me with my symmetrical one, I'm going to have to let him by, since his proper course is higher than mine and I can't force him down. The sooner I do this, the faster I can get back to the course I want to be on, away from his interference.

If the two of us are jib-reaching to a mark and L (me) goes goes faster than W (him) by heading 10º higher than W, he has to let me do that, because that is my proper course. W can't yell "Get back on your proper course!", thinking that the compass course to the mark is the proper course, and protest. It's L who determines what THEIR proper course is in this 'overtaking to leeward' situation. Not W.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by mackconsult

Nope, leeward boat has not rights.

Sorry, Mack. I've gone through this protest as the leeward boat, and won. Really surprised W in his new Sabre.

[OldFrog75]

The OP was more of riddle based upon the following fictitious situation:

Heading to a Windward mark a faster Leeward boat on starboard tack creates an overlap with Windward (also on a starboard tack) from clear astern. Suddenly there is an unexpected counterclockwise windshift knocking both boats:

L to W - "We're getting knocked. Tack over to a Port tack."
W to L - "No"
L to W - "Tack or let me by so I can tack"
W to L - "No"
L to W - "You're impeding my Proper Course. Tack now or I'm protesting."
W to L - "Go ahead, you'll lose."