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Old 20-08-2020, 16:19   #1
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please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

Hello all,

A couple of years ago we purchased an early model Ocean Voyager 26 https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/voyager-26and after some work and refitting put it back in the water. After having sailed it a bit I am stumped as to why we have a persistent lee helm. I have lee helm on virtually all points of sail in under virtually all sail configurations. Standard sail plan for us is full main and staysail which will produce lee helm for us on anything but a reach and sometimes a run. I was able to run up the yankee and get the boat balanced on a reach once but just that once.

Close hauled with a tightly sheeted and centered main and a luffing staysail will still give us lee helm.

The lee helm is so pronounced that getting the bow through the wind is such a dicey ordeal that I pretty much dont even bother anymore and just run the electric motor through tacks.

Getting any progress to windward is excruciating when you factor in the amount of leeway we make.

I feel like there might be a design issue or perhaps a ballast problem.

Some clues...

Clue 1.) Information on these boats is pretty scarce and I cant find it again but I have a memory of reading that changes were made to the ballast in later models.

Clue 2.) When we purchased the boat there was maybe something around 200-300 lbs of lead shot and other lead stuffed in the aft settee lockers (we removed it). I really dont know how much it was but it was a bunch. I am sure we will be finding lead shot escaped from rotten canvas bags for the rest of my life long after the boat is gone.

Clue 3.) the boot stripe (if that is to be believed as the water line) shows the boat to ride very high in the stern or perhaps even low in the bow. The mounting plate for the bobstay is right near the water. There is nothing forward of the mast which would contribute to excessive weight there. There is a chain locker right up forward but we only have about 30 feet of chain. There is no other tankage or anything else forward. We have a composting head so no tank for that either.



Of note... The boat was built with a beastly 8 hp Yanmar located under the companionway steps. We were faced with rebuilding that engine and learning about diesel or trying out an electric setup. We went with the electric setup and in so doing we removed that enormous hunk of tiny diesel. This removed a significant amount of weight but we then put 6 group 31 batteries back in the same spot so by my calculations, the weight is very close to the same.



My instinct is saying that this is a design/ballast problem but I dont understand hull form enough to really wrap my head around it. Am I correct? Do I need to find a place to load in more ballast aft?
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Old 21-08-2020, 14:49   #2
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

The keel/hull profile and sailplan show how sailing "bow-down" - as you say you are - could affect your helm. To increase weather helm people rake their masts aft. By removing weight aft (the lead shot and possibly the engine) you have essentially raked the mast forward. Removing weight has also lifted the rudder up so it has less bite in the water - perhaps not enough to turn the boat through a tack. It also puts the curved, less linear-oriented bow sections deeper into the water, making it easier to head off because the jibs and the top part of the main are put before the center of lateral effort of the boat. Lifting the keel up at the aft end does not help encourage flow over the rudder either. Putting the boat back on her lines might fix your problem. Perhaps putting sandbags or other weights at the back of the cockpit and going for a sail would be a good way to test this. Raking the mast more (maybe 6" more, overall?) might also help. Good luck.
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Old 21-08-2020, 15:25   #3
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

I would echo psk , given the nature of the hull, the CLR, center of lateral resistance, is not moved too much by moving weight around BUT the mast rake will make a difference. AND it may be that the mast rake is not correct in the first place. My own boat is designed to have an 8" rake, but it is hard to find that detail for an old boat anywhere unless you have the original plans. Is the mainsail the right one for the boat? Is the foot length correct?

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Old 21-08-2020, 19:58   #4
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

Thank you both for your replies. I have considered the rake of the mast and have pulled it back as far as I can and still have it sitting flush on the deck. To get it further back I would have to remake the mast step. I have considered this but it seems to me that if the mast required that much of a rake then they would have built the step accordingly. I generally follow the idea that the guy that built it (whatever "it" happens to be) knows more about the thing then me. It honestly never occurred to me that the rake or step might not be original or be incorrect.

Yes, I believe the sail is correct as it is a perfect fit and proudly marked "VM 26" i suspect it is original but is in good shape.

I have never put a ruler on it and done the math but the stern is maybe 2-4 inches high according to the boot stripe. Who knows if that is right but to my eye she just looks high in the stern if I try to squint and ignore the boot stripe. So lets say 4"... What would that translate to in degrees of rake? It cant be that much can it? Like 5 degrees maybe? Can that really produce the kind of lee helm I am experiencing? I mean, its a cutter made to carry twice the area forward that I currently am using. I can have up the full main and a luffing staysail and the boat is still woefully unbalanced. OK perhaps I am being a bit melodramatic but not much lol.

I am not arguing the point here but trying to gain a better understanding... If the stern is light and not griping the water as hard wouldnt that lessen the resistance aft and make the boat WANT to come up?

I suppose the next step is to put some sandbags in the cockpit and give it a try as PSK has suggested.
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Old 22-08-2020, 14:49   #5
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

[QUOTE=Tarnacc; I am not arguing the point here but trying to gain a better understanding... If the stern is light and not griping the water as hard wouldnt that lessen the resistance aft and make the boat WANT to come up?

I suppose the next step is to put some sandbags in the cockpit and give it a try as PSK has suggested.[/QUOTE]

Based on the drawing in Saildata, can we guess that the sternpost is perhaps 12' aft of the mast step, and that the top of the mast is roughly 32' above the waterline? This creates a triangle that, if you lift the stern up by about 4" moves the top of the mast forward about a foot. That is a fairly substantial change in mast rake.

Having less lateral resistance aft would tend to make the boat want to round up if the sails center of effort was aft. We've seen how the CE of the sails has been moved forward by perhaps as much as a foot.(I missed trigonometry in school - perhaps someone else can figure this out more precisely.) Shifting the center of lateral resistance forward by lifting the aft section of the keel up also changes the hydrodynamics of the hull. The rounded bows that are not as deep as the keel allow the head of the boat to fall off more easily. Like spinning a spoon on the kitchen table - if you put your finger in the bowl of the spoon to make it spin, it will lift its handle and spin. If you put you put your finger on the handle, it may move around, but it won't spin.
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Old 23-08-2020, 09:50   #6
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

I would like to see a photo of the main when its up. Is the main old? Is it the right size? Could it be that the topping lift might have been forgotten to be released, keeping the boom from coming all the way down? And yes, if it really has four inches to come down on its waterline aft, that should be corrected.
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Old 23-08-2020, 10:08   #7
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

Sailboat data says it originally had a BMW 12hp diesel, which sounds interesting, so the 9hp was not original, add that to all the lead shot in the back, I think when the old owner swapped out the BMW 12hp for the 9hp Yanmar he added the ballast for that reason.




So you had a 238lb (dry) engine, plus say 10lbs in fluids
248lbs
12 gallons of diesel at about 80lbs

So we have 330lbs presuming you didn’t remove the engine mount or prop and shaft.

The Yanmar 1GM10
https://www.yanmar.com/marine/product/engines/1gm10/

weighs 156lbs dry, so about 80lbs less than the original BMW

I would do some math and also see if anything else has been added to the bow or removed from anywhere, it sounds like you have a weight distribution issue.
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Old 23-08-2020, 17:04   #8
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

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Originally Posted by DirtyPigeon View Post
Sailboat data says it originally had a BMW 12hp diesel, which sounds interesting, so the 9hp was not original, add that to all the lead shot in the back, I think when the old owner swapped out the BMW 12hp for the 9hp Yanmar he added the ballast for that reason.




So you had a 238lb (dry) engine, plus say 10lbs in fluids
248lbs
12 gallons of diesel at about 80lbs

So we have 330lbs presuming you didn’t remove the engine mount or prop and shaft.

The Yanmar 1GM10
https://www.yanmar.com/marine/product/engines/1gm10/

weighs 156lbs dry, so about 80lbs less than the original BMW

I would do some math and also see if anything else has been added to the bow or removed from anywhere, it sounds like you have a weight distribution issue.
Nice research on the heavier original engine! I was going to suggest the same idea, but with the Yanmar being so light it didn't make sense. Chain instead of rode in a forward anchor locker could also make a big difference.
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Old 23-08-2020, 23:47   #9
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

Well, do you have 4 friends who would like to go sailing? Have everyone sit as far aft as possible and see what happens.
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Old 24-08-2020, 05:43   #10
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarnacc View Post
Yes, I believe the sail is correct as it is a perfect fit and proudly marked "VM 26" i suspect it is original but is in good shape.
How old is the original? Sail shape will change the center of effort. I had been surprised how much a new sail and better trim improved weather helm in my boat.
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Old 24-08-2020, 08:01   #11
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

Hm... Just eyeballing the sailplan/profile given in SailboatData gives rise to concern. I'm not surprised you have lee helm!

Here is a quick, easy and cheap way to get a grip on whether you have a design problem or not. I don't think just shifting ballast around is going to solve your problem.

Print out the sailplan from you 'puter, then take the P/O to some outfit like Staples and have it enlarged so the LWL is about 18 inches. Transfer this blown-up image of the canoe body (hull below the waterline) to some suitable material such as bristol board or, better still, very thin plywood (you can get it at Michael's or other such crafts supplier) and cut it out carefully. Somewhere near one end, doesn't matter just where as long as its near an end, drill a little hole, mebbe 1/8", though the material. Then do the same somewhere near the bottom of the keel, about halfway along.

Now, through the first hole pin the profile to the wall. Use a pin thin enuff not to generate friction in the hole. Knock on the wall a few times till the cut-out hangs still. From the pin, drop a plumb line and draw a line along it on the profile. Then do the same with the other hole. Where the two lines cross is your Centre of Lateral Plane. So now you know empirically, rather than by guess and by golly, where the CLP really is.

Then take the sailplan (at the same scale, i.e. blown up by the same percentage from the SailboatData sailplan) and work out the Centre of Effort. I assume you know how to do that - else sing out! The CLP is fixed. You cannot alter it. When you drop a vertical from the CE, that vertical should drop 8% or 10% of the LWL forward of the CLP. If the Vertical drops less than that distance forward of the CLP you'll have gross weather helm, if it drops more than that distance forward of the CLP you'll have lee helm. If the distance twixt the two is within the 8% to 10% range you will have just that tiny amount of weather helm that makes for a well-mannered boat.

Once you've verified that the relationship between the two centres is indeed appropriate, you can begin to look for more subtle reasons that your boat is a pain. Unless you do this verification, you are just stabbing in the dark.

As I said, a quick look at the SailboatData pic suggests that the boat has a design problem. If so, it can be fixed by moving the CE aft, but that is easier said than done.

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Old 24-08-2020, 11:04   #12
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

Thank you all again for the replies and help. Trentepieds, that is quite a post and I will be doing that after I have re-read the post a few times lol. before I get to that I would like to address some of the other questions

The main to the best of my knowlage is original which would make it pretty old. Having said that, it is in pretty good condition and I do not believe has really seen much use. It fits perfectly and while I am no racer, the trim has been good. The topping lift was not left with tension.

On the engine... I am not sure how much of the original equipment listed such as the 12hp BMW can really be relied on. I believe my boat may have been one of the very first made and perhaps even a prototype. There are some things on my boat which dont line up with any other I have found such as the round bronze opening ports which I have not seen on any other example. Also there is no hull number to be found anywhere on the boat or in any doccument or registration I have bee able to dig up. A story I got from the previous owner was that this was the personal boat of the builder.

But back to the engine... It is not a 9hp but an 8. It is a Yanmar SVE-8 which as far as I can tell was only made for a few years around 1975. Was this the "original" engine?
Who knows but it doesnt really matter. The dry weight for this engine is actually 286 lbs!!! You might say well there ya go, that is the loss of ballast but I replaced that engine with around 420 lbs worth of batteries. I have actually ADDED weight. It doesnt matter what engine was "original" to the boat because what I have in there is significantly heavier.

With regards to the additional ballast I removed from the settees, it was certainly not original and not knowing why some previous owner had put it there, I wanted to start with as close as I could get to the designers intention. It was also not very well placed to effect fore and aft trim. If I was to guess his intent from the placement of the weight I would guess he was attempting to make the boat more stiff. Also, I figured that the extra battery weight would account for some of that and the batteries are placed further aft.

Someone did mention anchor chain... I do have anchor chain but only 30'.

I certainly recognize the effect on sail balance by raising the stern out of the water and thereby raking the mast, I just did not think it could make THIS much of a difference.

Also and I will try to post pictures of this but while the profile picture is accurate, it does not really tell the story of the underwater profile. I am out of my depth here as I am NOT any kind of naval architect but the flat portion of the keel which would offer lateral resistance is pretty stubby and doesnt really start until pretty far back after the mast.
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Old 24-08-2020, 14:15   #13
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

FWIW, in my experience, a blown out mainsail will increase weather helm, not lee helm. I believe this is mostly due to increased heeling, not center of effort issues.

So I doubt if the old sail is causing lee helm in this case. I also doubt that it is in all that good shape...

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Old 24-08-2020, 15:59   #14
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

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Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
FWIW, in my experience, a blown out mainsail will increase weather helm, not lee helm. I believe this is mostly due to increased heeling, not center of effort issues.

So I doubt if the old sail is causing lee helm in this case. I also doubt that it is in all that good shape...

Jim
Would this still be the case if the mast is farther forward than is typical on most boats?
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Old 24-08-2020, 16:15   #15
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

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Would this still be the case if the mast is farther forward than is typical on most boats?
Good question, and I don't know enough to answer it accurately.

If the design was balanced with a good sail, I'd still t hink that a blown main would tend to increase weather helm, but that is just an instinctive reaction, not based on science.

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