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Old 24-08-2020, 20:40   #16
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

If it is the first one out of the mold then the mast placement may be the issue and those that followed had it placed differently. Something you can try, and I have not done this but heard of it done. In fact a boat builder told me to do it with an old boat I had long ago that I wanted to put a mast on. Take it out in a very calm area, tie off the centered tiller and using a dinghy, and someone with a towline held down on the rail somewhere, try pulling on the boat from amidships. When you can pull the boat sideways and it doesn't try to turn, you, for all practical purposes, have marked the center of lateral resistance for the hull, regardless of hull shape or keel. Mark it on the rail with a piece of tape. That mark may be just the thing you need to help solve this mystery. In my own case the builder told me to just be sure the center of effort was out ahead of the CLR... not very scientific I know. In reality there is the CE and the ruddering effect of the main to take into account. This short article may help too.
https://www.jordanyachts.com/4023
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Old 24-08-2020, 22:42   #17
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

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In my own case the builder told me to just be sure the center of effort was out ahead of the CLR... not very scientific I know.
Don, would that not cause LEE helm?

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Old 25-08-2020, 15:47   #18
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

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Don, would that not cause LEE helm?

Jim
Yeah that's the goofy thing the article points out, and it is kind of counterintuitive. But the CLR moves forward according to the article. But there has to be more to it than that because otherwise it would be impossible to sail with jib alone, no? Also the article does not mention the windvaning that the main's leach drives.
As we all know, in dinghy sailing its easy to see if the main is pulled in tight the boat just goes sideways, let it out and you start going forward, the CE is brought around to pulling, and the speed gives a directional stability too, and the hull drives some windward helm. (I was just out in our Sabot Sunday)
BTW the distance the CE is ahead of the CLR is referred to as the "lead" and it's usually around 15% in most boats I think. I'm going to query my sailmaker Thursday, I need to take a sail in anyway.

edit: I just noticed the comments at the bottom of the article. They might be of use to the OP too.
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Old 26-08-2020, 03:00   #19
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

Been reading this with interest.

I think the article at jordanyachts is trying to simplify the issue too much, to the extent that it is factually wrong. You can't just say CLR forward = weather helm and CLR behind = lee helm. When using the geometric method you are accepting an approximation based on observation that mostly works. Typical lead ranges for different types of yacht under-bodies allow designers to get it in the ball park. Jordanyachts remedies however are correct, He references the Ted Brewer article in the comments and this seems to be where he draws most of his information from.

Here are your geometric areas from the sailboatdata diagram. Just a rough look at if the lead is in the right range or not. First pass looked like the lead was about 18.6% but I used the complete under-body including the very large rudder. Re-did it without the rudder and it comes in at 14.4%. Acceptable range for long keel is 10-16%
Regardless of which diagram you use you are right at the top of the range and your practical observation suggests that you need to do something about moving the CE further aft.

Ballasting the stern to get more rake is what the previous owner did. Not a great solution but perhaps the only one they felt the could do.

Other alternatives could be:
Move the mast back - not going to happen, looks like it is deck stepped over a bulkhead.

Increase rake - Probably measure this first, perhaps your mast is upright or raked forward ? I would be looking at some sort of wedge under the mast base to keep your fitting perpendicular to the mast.

Ditch the cutter setup, looks cute but a 130% genoa is going to move the CE back quite a lot.

Sorry to hear about this, I guess if it was an easy fix you would have worked it out already.
Good Luck.





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Old 26-08-2020, 08:22   #20
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

Good job, Tann :-)

I agreed with all you say - how could I not, given that you reach the same conclusion as I :-). My comments we made in the hope that Tarnacc would himself go through the exercise that you have now gone through for him, and that in doing so he would learn something fundamental that it is essential for the practical sailorman to know.

There are IMO two ways that this boat can be salvaged: a) Re-rig as a yawl or b) re-rig with a gaff main. Since the boat is small, either choice is quite easily implemented, and not too expensive provided the owner stays away from such unnecessary frills as roller furling.

I know nothing about the designer cited by SailboatData, Daniel Avoures, so I looked him up and the first item Ms. Google popped up was this: Daniel J. Avoures and Associates, Inc.Naval Architects and Marine Consultants - Home . Not reassuring!

You will probably agree with me that had the boat NOT had a forefoot so drastically cut away, she would have handled better. A double ended Scowegian-style hull à la Colin Archer should have a full forefoot as per appended pic. Also, the Archer boats were gaff rigged with a rig rather tall for their day. However, the redningskoite “Stavanger”'s displacement was about 27 tons, say 60,000 lbs, on a waterline of 41 feet and she had a sail area under full sail of about 1,150 square feet. That gives us a SA/D of about 12 and a D/L of about 390, both of which parameters seem rather outré to us – but we must remember the conditions for which she was designed!

There was great diversity in the actual lines of Archer's boats, but they all had full forefoots. Some of the boats were cutter rigged, some were ketches, and I recall that at least one was a yawl.

My opinion, based on what little SailboatData tells us about the Voyager 26 is that Avoures, whoever he may be, took a notion to cut away the forefoot of what he thot was an Archer design (though possibly William Atkins was his reference) in order to make the Voyager easier to turn. He then bunged a cutter rig on her because, as you yourself said, it “looks cute”. We all “know” that to be “efficient” a boat needs a high aspect ratio Marconi rig. Not even designers are immune to that notion! In consequence the Voyager, as it came from the factory, was not unlike the famous elephant designed by a committee: The sundry major design elements are in conflict rather than cooperation with each other.

However, since the cure for the lee helm is to move the CE aft (the CLR being far more difficult to move) there are, as I said, two possible ways of doing it: a) Rig 'er as a gaffer or b) rig her as a yawl. No shame in that. The revered Colin Archer had to do that to some of his boats. As you rightly point out, the mast seems to use a bulkhead for a compression post and therefore cannot be moved very easily. Raking the mast won't IMO be enough. Neither will shifting ballast about.

Whether an owner chooses one modification or the other is not of great importance in terms of cost or effort since the scantlings of a modified rig are so small that for example a mizzen mast and mizzen boom could easily be home-made from common irrigation tubing as could the required boomkin. The mizzen sail can easily be home made since it's function would simply be to balance the boat, not to drive it. Shape when set will therefore be of lesser consequence than having the extra area aft. Such a modification would permit retention of the yankee jib which, I would think, would be essential for making the beast move at all in light airs. Not to mention retaining her "cute" looks :-)!

My opinion therefore supports Tarnacc's sense of the "problem" as stated in Post #1, i.e. that there is a “design issue”.

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Old 26-08-2020, 11:17   #21
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

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Originally Posted by tanngrisnir View Post
Re-did it without the rudder and it comes in at 14.4%.

Something bugged me about the second diagram, realized when I re-calculated the hull area I didn't re-scale the drawing. I scaled it off the waterline length in the first place.

Now rudderless diagram scaled correctly and the lead comes out to 15.7% (and sail areas almost same as specified on sailboatdata )



Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post

There are IMO two ways that this boat can be salvaged: a) Re-rig as a yawl or b) re-rig with a gaff main. Since the boat is small, either choice is quite easily implemented, and not too expensive provided the owner stays away from such unnecessary frills as roller furling.

You will probably agree with me that had the boat NOT had a forefoot so drastically cut away, she would have handled better.

My opinion, based on what little SailboatData tells us about the Voyager 26 is that Avoures, whoever he may be, took a notion to cut away the forefoot of what he thot was an Archer design (though possibly William Atkins was his reference) in order to make the Voyager easier to turn. He then bunged a cutter rig on her because, as you yourself said, it “looks cute”. We all “know” that to be “efficient” a boat needs a high aspect ratio Marconi rig. Not even designers are immune to that notion! In consequence the Voyager, as it came from the factory, was not unlike the famous elephant designed by a committee: The sundry major design elements are in conflict rather than cooperation with each other.

However, since the cure for the lee helm is to move the CE aft (the CLR being far more difficult to move) there are, as I said, two possible ways of doing it: a) Rig 'er as a gaffer or b) rig her as a yawl. No shame in that. The revered Colin Archer had to do that to some of his boats. As you rightly point out, the mast seems to use a bulkhead for a compression post and therefore cannot be moved very easily. Raking the mast won't IMO be enough. Neither will shifting ballast about.

My opinion therefore supports Tarnacc's sense of the "problem" as stated in Post #1, i.e. that there is a “design issue”.

TrentePieds

I am 100% following your lead, better solution
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Old 26-08-2020, 11:58   #22
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

"Lead" being the magic word, eh? :-0)

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Old 30-08-2020, 19:02   #23
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

Thank you all again for the help and insight. I certainly appreciate the "teach a man to fish" approach but having said that, I also appreciate Tanns post and math assistance.

So it has taken me a few days but we managed to stack in around 400 lbs of stuff in the aft end. this brought the boat level on the waterline according to the boot stripe. It was not until today that we were able to go out and give it a whirl. Results are... difficult to say as it was kinda lively today and we were reefed. But as I have sailed this boat in enough different conditions with enough different sail configurations I think I can weigh in. Obvious improvement but still not there. Still could not tack. I got it to come around once but I think that could have been a lucky wave pushing the bow over at just the right moment.

Odd thing that I was not anticipating is that movement under power is much improved. I suppose the propeller was cavitating to some degree before.

Mizzen sounds like a real pain unless perhaps I could make some variation of a riding sail off the back stay and an upright from the boomkins. Gaff rig would probably not be too bad and cant beat the looks.

With regards to moving the mast I think it might actually not be too bad. Yes it is deck stepped but it is on a compression post which could be relocated without too much bother. The biggest issue with moving the mast is most likely relocating the chain plates. I would have to make a couple new stays but that can be done, I even have the cable. How far back do you think it would have to come?

Truthfully sitting here right now I dont think I am going to want to spend a tremendous amount of effort on this boat. I dont plan of keeping her forever and am not planning any major trips. Perhaps up and down the Texas coast a bit and maybe to Mexico. This boat fits us for now as it is easy to maintain, works in our shallow bays and works nicely for the kind of family day tripping we are doing.

Perhaps given that, attempting to rake the mast makes more sense. How much do you think it would need to come back?

Thank you all again for your input.
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Old 30-08-2020, 19:36   #24
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

As TP has suggested, getting the CE aft of the CLR is what is needed. Scaling from your cutout pieces should provide you a guesstimate of how much the top of the mast has to move.
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Old 30-08-2020, 19:52   #25
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

So it was windy enough to reef the main right? And you had what for headsail? A reefed main would certainly lean toward lee helm, but I am still surprised that you are not able to tack. How fast are you going? Something doesn't add up. How about some photos of the sails up and the rig?
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Old 30-08-2020, 20:22   #26
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

What strikes me about this is that some of the advice you're getting seems backwards.

If you have lee helm then you either need to move the CLR forward or move the CE aft.

Putting extra weight in the stern drops the stern and raises the bow. This brings the CLR aft! (which is the wrong direction).

Yes, it also rakes the mast aft. Well I don't know how those two changes interact but I'd guess that the presence of a bunch of internal ballast tells you that someone else has tried to fix this problem, possibly unsuccessfully.

Slow down, start from scratch. Get the boat back on its lines and do some basic sail testing. If you don't have a balanced boat with the boat back on its lines and with a full main and a headsail then drop the headsail. What happens?

You should have weather helm. If not, then the rig is in the wrong place.

Maybe a design error.
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Old 31-08-2020, 17:00   #27
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

I think in this heavier double ender design the movement of CLR when weight is added aft is minor compared to the effect you might see from the added rake. I too wonder what happens when there is no headsail on a windy day. And maybe too the headsails are being sheeted in too tight?
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Old 31-08-2020, 17:39   #28
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

I think we are likely missing some critical piece of information as such a significant problem is usually not in the minor details. I might suggest having an experienced sailor go out sailing with you. A fresh set of eyes may show things you are overlooking.



Most of the helm balance factors are dynamic. A foot of mast rake moves the CE about 4-5", not very significant relative to other factors. We have all experienced how one reef in the main moves the static CE forward much more than this and usually results in less weather helm due to improved angle of heel.



There is a great discussion on helm balance in John Letcher's (now out of print) book on Self Steering for Sailing Craft. Explains sail trim, sail shape, effects of heeling, why lead is needed, etc..
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Old 31-08-2020, 17:41   #29
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

rig way out of tune? Loose headstay giving a baggy headsail? Tell us about your prop. Bottom clean?
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Old 31-08-2020, 20:27   #30
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Re: please help diagnose lee helm ocean voyager 26

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So it was windy enough to reef the main right? And you had what for headsail? A reefed main would certainly lean toward lee helm, but I am still surprised that you are not able to tack. How fast are you going? Something doesn't add up. How about some photos of the sails up and the rig?
Reefed main and at first just the staysail but that was woefully unbalanced so I reefed the staysail. It was still unbalanced so I let the reefed staysail luff and the lee helm persisted.

Adding weight aft and bringing it to what I believe a level waterline which has brought the mast back has helped but something is still way off.

How fast was I going? I dont really know but fairly fast for this boat. I assure you there was plenty of momentum to bring it around.

There is virtually NO sail configuration which does not result in lee helm. Actually thats not true. If I have up only the main with no headsail and am on a run then I can get weather helm.
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