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Old 19-12-2024, 07:38   #1
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Over Jammer

Or over clutch.


My PDQ has 6 winches, enough that everything could be easily managed without conflicts. My F-24 has 4 winches, and mostly this is enough, but I do have one anointing conflict, which I manage with a low friction ring on a loop. I can't shake out a reef on starboard tack because the jib uses the key winch needed for the main halyard.





I've seen far worse messes, and these boats don't have anymore strings or tweaks than my F-24, which has 3-D leads on the genoa, chute and reacher on separate halyards, and tweakers on both. They just spread the lines around a little more. What challenges do you have and how do you handle them? What modifications have you made?





Gemini Legacy




Dragonfly 40
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Old 19-12-2024, 09:26   #2
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Re: Over Jammer

I have never seen a system intentionally designed so the primary winches (for jib sheets) were shared with anything. Apparently it happens…

Just seems a design that is cheap, or lazy, or maybe just a lack of understanding how boats are sailed.
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Old 19-12-2024, 09:53   #3
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Re: Over Jammer

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Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie View Post
I have never seen a system intentionally designed so the primary winches (for jib sheets) were shared with anything. Apparently it happens…

Just seems a design that is cheap, or lazy, or maybe just a lack of understanding how boats are sailed.

VERY common on new boats.


I was told by the designer of the Gemini, for example, that they build them for a "different kind of sailor." May be that translates "they look nice at the the boat show" and "they don't go out when it blows."


Some sharing is OK, but they should be secondary functions. My boggle (shaking out a reef) is not bad, since it does NOT interfere with putting in a reef (you can control the halyard with a half wrap on the winch over the other line, and the main sail is pulled down by external roller-boom furling, with a separate reefing clew anchor).
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Old 19-12-2024, 10:56   #4
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Re: Over Jammer

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Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie View Post
I have never seen a system intentionally designed so the primary winches (for jib sheets) were shared with anything. Apparently it happens…

Just seems a design that is cheap, or lazy, or maybe just a lack of understanding how boats are sailed.
You have not tried to sail a modern Jeanneau. The design philosophy is to use powered winches and get away with as few winches as possible.
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Old 19-12-2024, 12:36   #5
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Re: Over Jammer

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You have not tried to sail a modern Jeanneau. The design philosophy is to use powered winches and get away with as few winches as possible.

For example, you need to tack RIGHT NOW to avoid a collision, but a halyard is still on the winch. That needs to come off and the sheet needs to come on, because bad things happen if you release a loaded jammer. Or maybe it was the lazy winch that still had a line on it, so you can't grind the sheet in. Maybe you were on watch alone, making things even more complicated.



Whatever. I guess they hope nothing happens fast with short crew. But that is how you sell a 50' boat to an old guy, remembering that old guys have the money and they make their money on big boats.
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Old 19-12-2024, 12:57   #6
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Re: Over Jammer

Forgive my ignorance, but halyards and sheets are handled by the same winch in those photos?
Oh wait, never mind, I see it.
Buy two more winches. Looks like there is room to mount the jib sheet winches there, no?

BUT, with the other photos... if there are sheets in there, yes, that is crazy.

edit again, ok I should have studied the photos more carefully. Yes, I do see a sheet for something in the second photo. I can only surmise this boat does not really sail. It just has decorations.
But seriously, yes that seems foolish.
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Old 19-12-2024, 13:58   #7
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Re: Over Jammer

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Forgive my ignorance, but halyards and sheets are handled by the same winch in those photos?
Oh wait, never mind, I see it.
Buy two more winches. Looks like there is room to mount the jib sheet winches there, no?

BUT, with the other photos... if there are sheets in there, yes, that is crazy.

edit again, ok I should have studied the photos more carefully. Yes, I do see a sheet for something in the second photo. I can only surmise this boat does not really sail. It just has decorations.
But seriously, yes that seems foolish.

The first photo is my boat. The jib sheet is obvious. The main controls are aft or at the last, except for the red halyard (the other clutched lines are reacher halyard and jib furler).


The second photo is Gemini Legacy. Yes, EVERYTHING is there except for the main traveler.


The third is a Dragonfly. Yup, everything is in that one spot. Twin wheels make it hard to move around. A wonderful boat, but that they mucked up IMO. It's hard to make something into a performance boat while you are pretending it is a cruiser. They made compromises.












But back to the original topic, "What challenges do you have and how do you handle them? What modifications have you made?" I use an LFR on a sling, and I am considering changing to an open turning block, something like the one of the Dragonfly, although I think I made fabricate my own, just because I can.
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Old 19-12-2024, 14:12   #8
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Re: Over Jammer

Personally, I'd move that cam cleat outboard a bit and add another winch. Jib sheets really need their own. Plenty of other things can share though. Like a jib halyard, main halyard, and spin halyard. You're unlikely to be adjusting more than 1 of those at a time. By the same logic, multiple reef lines can share a winch, and those can also share with the outhaul, as you're only going to be using 1 of them at a time.
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Old 19-12-2024, 15:03   #9
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Re: Over Jammer

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Personally, I'd move that cam cleat outboard a bit and add another winch. Jib sheets really need their own. Plenty of other things can share though. Like a jib halyard, main halyard, and spin halyard. You're unlikely to be adjusting more than 1 of those at a time. By the same logic, multiple reef lines can share a winch, and those can also share with the outhaul, as you're only going to be using 1 of them at a time.

A fair point. I agree with you about sheets.

  • Winches are expensive and moving them is some work. But I would do it if it seemed that serious or if I only had two winches. But as it is the ONLY operation with a conflict is shaking out a reef on starboard tack, and I can also solve that simply by tacking first (no conflict on port tack). I'm just bored and being fussy.
  • Where the winch is you can stand. If I move it outboard you have to kneel on a bench. Not an improvement. I hate kneeling (Former broken kneecap).
  • There are 2-speed secondary winches on the coaming for the reacher, chute, and some other duties. The outhaul controls for the jib 3D leads are on the coaming. Four good winches should be enough for a 24-foot boat.
BTW, this boat does not have reefing lines (external roller boom furling) and the outhaul tackle is on the boom. The Cunningham is at the mast. The mainsheet and traveler are aft.



The only problem with the LFR solution is having to thread the ring up the halyard. I should play with running the halyard in the outside groove and rigging it to the winch differently. It might be as simple as using an open sling, dropping it over the winch, loading the halyard into the LFR, and then threading the sling through the LFR and dropping it over the winch. Done, should take about 4-5 seconds. I need to try that. Just thought of it. Basically an LFR snatch block. I will report back next time ... but I'll soon be traveling until new years.


Darn I wanted to build something. And why didn't I think of that sooner. It must have occurred to me.
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Old 20-12-2024, 01:56   #10
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Re: Over Jammer

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie View Post
I have never seen a system intentionally designed so the primary winches (for jib sheets) were shared with anything. Apparently it happens…

Just seems a design that is cheap, or lazy, or maybe just a lack of understanding how boats are sailed.
????

It is very common on larger cruising boats to have a bank of clutches leading to one or two winches per side or grouped near a catamaran cockpit. Jib sheet and main sheet are often in that group of clutches.

Usually you will keep a jib sheet (or genoa or gennaker or whatever headsail) loaded on a winch with an open clutch and same for the mainsheet on another winch and open clutch. Depending on the number of winches and clutches/jammers available it may be necessary during some manoeuvres to close a sheet clutch to unload the winch. When the manoeuvre is finished the sheet goes back on the winch and clutch opened.

The days of racing boats (and cruising) having one winch per line are long gone and good riddance. Winches are heavy, expensive, and use a lot of room. A bank of clutches, not so much.
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Old 20-12-2024, 06:45   #11
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Re: Over Jammer

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????

It is very common on larger cruising boats to have a bank of clutches leading to one or two winches per side or grouped near a catamaran cockpit. Jib sheet and main sheet are often in that group of clutches.

Usually you will keep a jib sheet (or genoa or gennaker or whatever headsail) loaded on a winch with an open clutch and same for the mainsheet on another winch and open clutch. Depending on the number of winches and clutches/jammers available it may be necessary during some manoeuvres to close a sheet clutch to unload the winch. When the manoeuvre is finished the sheet goes back on the winch and clutch opened.

The days of racing boats (and cruising) having one winch per line are long gone and good riddance. Winches are heavy, expensive, and use a lot of room. A bank of clutches, not so much.
For most things that works fine, but personally, I'm no fan of clutches and shared winches for headsail sheets. I don't mind it so much for a main sheet though as long as you've got a good traveler (as you don't lose control over the sail while temporarily using the winch for something else).

Plenty of older race boats certainly had far more winches than they really needed, especially if they weren't being raced with a large crew. But the modern trend of trying to get down to 2 winches on the whole boat is a step too far in the other direction, I think. Depending on the boat and how it's equipped, I'd say somewhere around 4 - 6 winches total is probably the right number. That gives you dedicated primaries and possibly secondaries plus 2 winches to handle main sheet, halyards, reef lines, outhaul, etc. I'd probably share those as halyards and mainsheet to one, reef lines, outhaul, etc. to the other.
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Old 20-12-2024, 07:25   #12
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Re: Over Jammer

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For most things that works fine, but personally, I'm no fan of clutches and shared winches for headsail sheets. I don't mind it so much for a main sheet though as long as you've got a good traveler (as you don't lose control over the sail while temporarily using the winch for something else).

Plenty of older race boats certainly had far more winches than they really needed, especially if they weren't being raced with a large crew. But the modern trend of trying to get down to 2 winches on the whole boat is a step too far in the other direction, I think. Depending on the boat and how it's equipped, I'd say somewhere around 4 - 6 winches total is probably the right number. That gives you dedicated primaries and possibly secondaries plus 2 winches to handle main sheet, halyards, reef lines, outhaul, etc. I'd probably share those as halyards and mainsheet to one, reef lines, outhaul, etc. to the other.

The other question, of course, is whether the secondaries are positioned so that they can share duties. In the case of my F-24, not really, because of the difference in elevation (the secondaries are much lower and would instantly override). On my PDQ, yes, the secondaries could easily share jobs.


For example, a guide that would hold the ropes DOWN when entering the secondaries could work. Also a chafe guide on the edge of the cabin roof. I don't think I will go this way, but it could work.
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Old 20-12-2024, 07:31   #13
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Re: Over Jammer

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The other question, of course, is whether the secondaries are positioned so that they can share duties. In the case of my F-24, not really, because of the difference in elevation (the secondaries are much lower and would instantly override). On my PDQ, yes, the secondaries could easily share jobs.
That makes a good point. I'm a big fan of matching primaries and secondaries on the coamings when possible (and on boats where they're on the coamings), particularly on boats with the mainsheet and traveler at the front of the cockpit. That gives the option ideally to lead the jib sheets to either set of winches depending on whether you're sailing solo or with crew. Solo you'd use the set that keeps you closer to the mainsheet, with crew you'd use the other set to keep you better separated in the cockpit. Of course, when flying a spin, then they end up becoming proper primary / secondary usage.
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Old 20-01-2025, 05:01   #14
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Re: Over Jammer

It depends a lot on the number of crew and type of sailing. I sail singlehanded and shorthanded, in all kinds of weather and traffic. So on my own boats, I ensure that I can always trim the main, trim the headsail, and play one control (usually the outhaul) without touching a clutch. If I had three experienced crew then I wouldn't care very much as there are enough hands to fiddle during a maneuver.

The only compromise I don't love is when the main halyard and reefing line are on the same winch with clutches. This makes reefing and shaking out a bit more complicated than ideal, at a moment where time can be precious and there's already a bit of pressure. Not so complicated that I want to pay for another winch, though. In my fantasies this would be a case for clutches on the genoa winches: put the reefing lines there, one on each side. You don't need to touch genoa sheets while reefing, and most of the time can choose your tack anyway and have a free genoa winch already.

As a worst-case experience with clutches, I chartered a Jeanneau with genoa and double-ended mainsheet sharing one winch per side, with mainsheet jammers. This is probably fine if staying on the same tack for hours, and is even workable for short-tacking up a channel as you just leave the main jammed on both sides.

It was not fine for two sailors gybing down a channel: sheet in the main, jam, undress the mainsheet winch, dress the genoa, sheet in the genoa, gybe, quickly undress the lazy genoa sheet, dress with the mainsheet, sheet out the main...and then repeat five minutes later, while looking for traffic and steering downwind the whole time.

For upwind, it was irritating to leave both sides of the main jammed as there was no way to quickly ease the main in a broach (and no traveler, and vang on its own jammer at the other end of end of the cockpit.) But I get it, this particular charter boat was designed to be motored through channels and at anchor or dock in heavy wind. It could have been optioned with more winches for an owner who wanted to sail more aggressively.
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