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Old 16-12-2018, 01:23   #1
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pirate Our first boat please provide input.

My wife and I are looking at purchasing our first boat in the Tampa area. Our plan is to live aboard in a marina at first, and then eventually sail internationally. We are novice sailors and will be taking lessons in the years to come before attempting a long voyage. The link below is to the boat we are looking at, my main concern is what is the minimum crew it would require? https://www.boattrader.com/listing/1...-44-103437004/ It is a 1985 Custom Schooner 44 and appears to be quite manual, it will be only my wife and I as crew, and I want to make sure that we are not biting off more than we can chew. Also what are your thoughts on the boat in general as in its live aboard ability as well as ocean crossing capability? The only other boat we are considering at this point is this 1979 Morgan 382, https://www.boattrader.com/listing/1...382-103463569/ if you have the time to check this one out as well I would like to ask for your thoughts as well as how the two boats compare. Thank you for your time.
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Old 16-12-2018, 03:11   #2
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

The schooner certainly looks interesting, but somehow I feel you will be spending your life fixing things and trying to work out what everything does. You are going to need to be good with tools, electrics, plumbing that isn't standard and someone else's ideas. Do you enjoy spending hours fixing things in exotic locations, dealing in foreign languages and bodging stuff because spares aren't readily available? It would be interesting to find out when was the last time the schooner went to sea, kind of looks like its been a dock queen for a long time, which isn't good.

As for sailing well the Morgan is going to be a whole lot simpler to understand and manage, not just on a nice day, but when it kicks up rough and you need to reef whilst the other steers. Also seems to have most things you will be looking at. Self tailing winches, windvane steering, radar, not too deep a draft and decent water tank size. Not sure what is going on with the sails, they may need a really good inspection and possibly replacing in the future but won't stop you for now.

I would certainly think about another visit to the Morgan if its taken your fancy. Do lie on the berths and see if they are long enough for long term living. Can you move around in the shower. Can you sit on the heads when the boat is leaning over 30 degrees? Are the hand holes in the saloon in the right place for moving about when she is rolling about in a seaway?

There was a recent thread on here discussing the ideal size and lots of folk liked the 36 - 38ft range as a really nice sweet spot for comfort but ease of handing for a couple. Have a read of Mike O'Reilly's posts. Two of them out there cruising about on a simple 37ft yacht enjoying life

Cruisers & Sailing Forums - View Profile: Mike OReilly

Good luck.
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Old 16-12-2018, 05:01   #3
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Nick.
A 44' Schooner may not be the ideal starter boat.
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Old 16-12-2018, 05:54   #4
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pirate Re: Our first boat please provide input.

I think I would opt for the schooner if the aluminium hull and deck pass muster.
I like the variety of sail combinations that it offers.
The Morgan looks okay as well so it boils down more to what interior would you be happy living in for extended periods when those moments arise.
Topsides are just a matter of experimentation in fair weather and what works, what does not.. just like any new to you boat as I get reminded on every delivery..
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Old 16-12-2018, 06:22   #5
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

One thing to consider is that in practise quite often with a two-person crew, only one is sailing the boat. The other is resting, cooking etc. If one of you is incapacitated this becomes even more important. Having said that, there are many couples sailing 45-foot plus boats. For our coastal cruising my diminutive wife and I decided that 35-feet was the biggest she could easily handle, and even then we use a working jib most of the time rather than a large Genoa as my crew is unable to sheet in the Genoa in anything stronger than a Force 2. Hence Boatie's point about the schooner rig with lots of smaller sails. There are certainly many good boats out there. Don't underestimate the importance of storage space if you're planning to spend long periods aboard, but sailing characteristics are probably more important.
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Old 16-12-2018, 08:06   #6
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

Looks like the local hardware store had a sale on plywood. This is the poster child boat of a full time rebuild and maintenance headache which no first time boat owner could even begin the consider.
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Old 16-12-2018, 08:50   #7
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

One thing that first time boat owners don’t understand is the cost of maintaining a boat and the need to develop the skills required to do the work themselves not only to keep costs down but to keep critical systems operating when there’s no assistance to be had.

A custom boat often magnifies these issues as there is no owner community or even specs plans diagrams etc to leverage. This boat in particular looks like a bare hul that was built out by an owner or something similar. Looks like a headache waiting to happen.

It’s basically a truism that as someone new to big boats the first boat you buy will not be the one you wished you’d bought in a few years. Experience will school you on what works for you and what does not.

A custom boat like that will be difficult to unload in a few years and may cost you a bomb in the interim. You’d be better served by buying a35-40’ production boat that you can easily unload if and when you understand what you really want and need.
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Old 16-12-2018, 09:16   #8
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickWallace View Post
My wife and I are looking at purchasing our first boat in the Tampa area. Our plan is to live aboard in a marina at first, and then eventually sail internationally. We are novice sailors and will be taking lessons in the years to come before attempting a long voyage. The link below is to the boat we are looking at, my main concern is what is the minimum crew it would require? https://www.boattrader.com/listing/1...-44-103437004/ It is a 1985 Custom Schooner 44 and appears to be quite manual, it will be only my wife and I as crew, and I want to make sure that we are not biting off more than we can chew. Also what are your thoughts on the boat in general as in its live aboard ability as well as ocean crossing capability? The only other boat we are considering at this point is this 1979 Morgan 382, https://www.boattrader.com/listing/1...382-103463569/ if you have the time to check this one out as well I would like to ask for your thoughts as well as how the two boats compare. Thank you for your time.
Buy something smaller, perhaps a dayboat to practice on first, an then trade up when you are proficient. Anything else is foolhardy !
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Old 16-12-2018, 09:24   #9
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

Good info above regarding the boats ( I shuddered when reviewing the schooner). You casually mention that you will live aboard the boat in a marina but I wonder how easy this is to do these days. Most marinas in our area have long wait lists to get slips and even longer for live aboard. Boats often have to meet minimum standards. Working ashore while living aboard is a hassle. Where do I park my car, where do I keep my work clothes, do I use shore facilities to shower, etc..... Not to put you off your dream but be sure you have the details sorted before you put money down on a boat. And, of course, hire a good surveyor that you have sourced rather than one the broker recommended.
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Old 16-12-2018, 09:49   #10
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

Hi Nick. I went through the same sort of search as you are going through now a few years ago but with a bit more sailing experience. I would not consider the boat you listed. In learning from my own experiences I would say that a few things would be more important to me than they were at the time I was looking. I did look at a Morgan 382 in my travels. It was wet and felt a little narrow below deck but people say they sail well.

First, I would look for a boat that is capable of what I want to do, in the area I want to do it in. With that said, overall size and draft is a big deal. The west coast of FL and the Keys both have limited depth so draft is a major concern. Living in a slip and the cost of boat ownership is somewhat dependent on size. Everything from ground tackle to slip availability will change with length and weight. You will be spending upwards of $1,000.00 on anchor rode alone on that boat, plus the cost of the anchor. Slips cost is sometimes done by the foot, and may not be available for that length and beam.

Second, buy a boat that is mostly set up the way you want it. It is easy to add an anchor but a windlass is a little bit more of an ordeal. Canvas is expensive. Rigging is expensive to replace. Your powerplants, engine and sail inventory, should be serviceable because , you guessed it, expensive. If you need air conditioning to be comfortable, look for a boat that has it or has room to install it. Repairs are inevitable but make sure the system isn't so old that it isn't practical to repair it or parts are no longer available.

Third, I would look for a boat that has good support. A lot of sailboat companies went out of business in the 80's. The more popular boats have active owners groups which is a plus but not as good as having a manufacturer that still supports a product. With all that said, I love the classics. Robert Perry and Carl Alberg are two of my favorite designers. But, maybe look at a Tartan 37 with a centerboard or a Sabre 34 shoal draft. Both companies are still making boats although Sabre dropped its sail line. Some other good boats on my list would be a Bristol 35.5 or a Pearson 365/7 but not in a ketch. I love the Cape Dory 36 and an Island Packet 35 but the Island Packet will be double the price of the boat you asked about. Emphasis on draft. Those are my choices. Yours and the rest of the forums may be different. I have a Canadian Sailcraft (CS Yachts) 36 Merlin that I like very much but I'm struggling to add the equipment that I want it to have. It would have been better to find a boat that had it already on board. Good luck.
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Old 16-12-2018, 09:51   #11
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

Quote: "...my main concern is what is the minimum crew it would require? "

The specific answer is "one". One person is all that is required.

However, your asking the question, as you do, reveals that it will be a good long time before you'd be able to handle the boat (either of them) alone on any significant voyage.

There are two discrete aspects to "cruising" - whatever you mean by that term. There is a) boat handling, and b) skippering. The former I can teach you in a week-end - in either of these two boats, or in any other for that matter. The latter takes a lifetime to learn and the people who have given you good advice above will bear that out.

There is a third aspect to "cruising" in the sense that you seem to mean the word: The art of living aboard, living small, living without the conveniences landlubbers seem to have difficulty living without. Men who make their living on the sea are acutely aware of what it takes not only in terms of material minimalism but also in terms of attitude adjustment because "cabin fever" is not a rare occurrence.

Quote: "... and appears to be quite manual..."

Good! That is exactly what you want. Complexities are not necessary, and can only detract not only from the pleasure of cruising, but more particularly from the time spent cruising rather than repairing, and from the cruising funds that remain available to buy the pleasures of cruising because complexities gobble up repair funds at a rate that landlubbers rarely have any idea of.

You may WANT a watermaker, you may WANT a generator. That doesn't mean that you NEED them. What may serve you even better, if you want them, is an attitude adjustment. You may WANT a chartplotter, but you don't need one. What you absolutely need to learn to become a skipper, is to navigate. For that, all you need is paper charts, a sharp pencil, two draftsman's triangles, a cheap wristwatch from Walmart, and your wits about you. In slow moving boats you don't even need a bearing compass. Your steering compass will do the job.

As for minimizing the crew, being able to singlehand the boat, even when there are other people aboard, which is a situation many men find themselves in, it all depends on how your running rigging is set up, principally in regard to the ease of making, reefing and striking sail. Performing those functions with ease - i.e. by yourself - relies on having OLD-FASHIONED gear. Eschew, until you have a LOT of experience in MAINTENANCE, all the fancy gear that is promoted by the glossy boating mags.

As for how boats compare against each other, that question is not really of any importance. There are very few out'n'out dogs, and it will be quite a while before you, at the helm, will be able to discern the differences. Almost any boat can be made to do the job you want to have it do for you. What matters is YOUR knowledge of how to set it up. As for the below-decks arrangements they don't matter much. In a week of living in any given boat you adjust yourself to what the arrangements are.

Reading between the lines I would think that the biggest favour you can do yourself at this time is to go and join a sailing club. Any respectable club, of which there must be many in the Tampa area, will offer courses where novices will be "shown the ropes" by experienced people. A major benefit of belonging to a club, and taking courses there, is that you will have the opportunity to test the waters and determine if sailing really IS for you before you commit funds to something that for a great many people turns out to be a disappointment.

All the best,

TrentePieds
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Old 16-12-2018, 10:01   #12
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

I saw a few things that were a concern, open shelving, port a potti not mounted, not many handholds, loose floorboards, etc. If this were my first boat I would pass.
It's a large boat, the cost of upkeep will be more than you think.
Pay the owner to take you out sailing for the day, or even better overnight.
You'll see quickly if it is something you want to deal with.
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Old 16-12-2018, 10:07   #13
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

Nick, I feel like you are getting the cart before the horse. With no experience selecting a boat at this point for "international cruising"? The rig looks labor intensive to me on the "custom". JMHO
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Old 16-12-2018, 10:41   #14
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

Try a 16 foot sailing dinghy first, basics are the same except you will learn more about sail handling on the sailing dink. Make sure you wear good life jackets.
Bill






is a 1985 Custom Schooner 44 and appears to be quite manual, it will be only my wife and I as crew, and I want to make sure that we are not biting off more than we can chew. Also what are your thoughts on the boat in general as in its live aboard ability as well as ocean crossing capability? The only other boat we are considering at this point is this 1979 Morgan 382, https://www.boattrader.com/listing/1...382-103463569/ if you have the time to check this one out as well I would like to ask for your thoughts as well as how the two boats compare. Thank you for your time.[/QUOTE]
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Old 16-12-2018, 10:49   #15
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Re: Our first boat please provide input.

Lear how to inspect a prospective purchase.
Marine Survey 101
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