Operate boat while sitting down?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Some reasons:

1. In many boats, one can't see forward very well along the center line, due to mast and coiled halyards and perhaps a dinghy on the foredeck. If imprisoned in a chair, moving side to side to overcome this issue is difficult.

2. In many boats, one must stand to see over the dodger, and many dodgers have poor vvisibility through their clears

3. When seated, one lacks good leverage to apply torque to the wheel, and some boats require considerable effort when the wind gets up.

4. If short handed, the chap driving must also work winches, etc, and this is not possible when seated.

So, IMO a helm that allows one to stand comfortably whilst steering is necessary. If it is feasible, a seat that allows a relaxed watchstanding and casual steering position is a good addition, but of only secondary importance.

Jim

Indeed. Furthermore, what percentage of your miles to you cover hand steering? 1%? 0.1%? My next boat will have an inside "helm" position in a pilothouse, but there won't be a wheel there at all. Autopilot control is plenty for that position. I use my wheel mostly just for docking, close harbor maneuvers, and getting the boat back up on the wind after a tack. It's no problem to stand during those brief moments; in fact I don't think I would ever want to be sitting. That's why the seat is set back from the wheel in those photos.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Some reasons:

1. In many boats, one can't see forward very well along the center line, due to mast and coiled halyards and perhaps a dinghy on the foredeck. If imprisoned in a chair, moving side to side to overcome this issue is difficult.

2. In many boats, one must stand to see over the dodger, and many dodgers have poor vvisibility through their clears

3. When seated, one lacks good leverage to apply torque to the wheel, and some boats require considerable effort when the wind gets up.

4. If short handed, the chap driving must also work winches, etc, and this is not possible when seated.

So, IMO a helm that allows one to stand comfortably whilst steering is necessary. If it is feasible, a seat that allows a relaxed watchstanding and casual steering position is a good addition, but of only secondary importance.

Jim

At least for my boat, you are arguing from false assumption. For others, not.


1. On cats the helm is offset.
2. See "1."
3. This is only true if the foot rest height is incorrect. No problem. I also depends on maintaining proper sail balance; if the helm gets that heavy, the sail plan is probably poorly balanced.
4. I can reach one winch and all of the jammers. I keep sheets in cam cleats when gusty. Because the helm is forward, the cockpit is not blocked by a pedestal and I can reach any winch (4) in a few steps and have good leverage. A swivel seat is a big help.

In fact, I would counter argue that I am better braced when seated (some seated helms are very poor this way). Would you drive a car standing and consider it safe? Clearly, it depends on proper human engineering, which was the OP's point.

This is probably also a mono-multi thing to some extent. The lack of heel and off-set helm make a big difference. So horses for courses. Lamentably, I've seen some really stupid cat helms. I have no explanation for that.

To get to this point I had to upgrade the foot rest, which added a little stowage in the process.


As for leaving the proximity of the helm/winches in gusty weather, that is not done by smart cat sailors. It will be on auto, but you will still be there, and for long hours, the seat should be the best place. If not, it was done wrong. In fact, guests often end up in the helm seat, as it is one of the most pleasant.

[rmlarson1098]

Originally Posted by jsc7

Most boats have chairs behind the wheel, but whenever I watch videos of people operating boats, they are never sitting down, but always standing up. This is hardly surprising because the chair and wheel rarely seem to be in any configuration even remotely convenient to be used at the same time. The only time I see somebody sitting down is when they operate a tiller.

For example,

the chair is a good three feet behind the wheel--no way you could even reach the wheel sitting in that chair.

In a car the wheel is mounted on a tubular axis called a "steering column" which adjusts up and down. The car seat is positioned below the wheel and the driver's legs fit under it. The wheel comes between their legs and is right in front of their chest.

In a boat, the configuration is nothing like this. The wheel is fixed in position, often lower than the seat, and much lower than the captain's chest. I have never seen a boat console that allowed the captain to position their legs underneath the wheel. This obliges the operator to stand up and over the wheel. Even on big military ships it is the same, the helmsman standing in front of the wheel. On submarines, however, the helmsman sits and operates the yoke as in a car.

What is the story here? Is this just a design failure that is perpetuated for historical reasons? Are there any boats that have a car-like wheel?

Sitting is the the smoking!

[Jim Cate]

This is probably also a mono-multi thing to some extent. The lack of heel and off-set helm make a big difference. So horses for courses.

Sure, things are different on catamarans, but I didn't think they were the boats under consideration by the OP. Actually, I thinkk he is interested in power boats in general, so my post was perhaps misdirected from the start. So, I'll stand by my observations, being that the vast majority of boats now sailing are monohulls, and all of the boats that I have owned and cruised in have been such and form my data base.

And I have been aboard some cats where the forward visibility was terrible, seated or standing, from anywhere near the helm. Others have overcome the problems and offer great viz, especially the (in my eyes) abominable raised fly bridge models!

The comments about very high performance small boats with bucket seats and five point harnesses are interesting, but not too applicable to sailing yachts (other than possibly AC cats!).

Jim

[ValiantV]

It's nice to have a boat that allows for either sitting or standing. I like standing for better visibility around sails, mast, others in the cockpit. Sitting if you have a longer stretch of steering without much traffic or maneuvering to worry about.

I would imagine single-handing or having to help your crew would make sitting somewhat difficult.

Talking sailboats here...

[KP44]

Once I have set a course and trimmed sails, there is watch keeping but not much steering. I usually sit on the aft edge of the cockpit, about 2 feet aft of the wheel and I can easily steer from my seat. I had our dodger built so I can see over it from my seat, or when standing on the cockpit sole at the wheel.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by jsc7

Most boats have chairs behind the wheel, but whenever I watch videos of people operating boats, they are never sitting down, but always standing up. This is hardly surprising because the chair and wheel rarely seem to be in any configuration even remotely convenient to be used at the same time. The only time I see somebody sitting down is when they operate a tiller.

For example,

the chair is a good three feet behind the wheel--no way you could even reach the wheel sitting in that chair.

In a car the wheel is mounted on a tubular axis called a "steering column" which adjusts up and down. The car seat is positioned below the wheel and the driver's legs fit under it. The wheel comes between their legs and is right in front of their chest.

In a boat, the configuration is nothing like this. The wheel is fixed in position, often lower than the seat, and much lower than the captain's chest. I have never seen a boat console that allowed the captain to position their legs underneath the wheel. This obliges the operator to stand up and over the wheel. Even on big military ships it is the same, the helmsman standing in front of the wheel. On submarines, however, the helmsman sits and operates the yoke as in a car.

What is the story here? Is this just a design failure that is perpetuated for historical reasons? Are there any boats that have a car-like wheel?

Plenty of powerboats, ski boats etc have car like driving positions.

Sail boats often need much bigger steering wheels, which simply don't fit in your lap like a car steering wheel does.

[CaptsWife]

"Most boats"? Really? I guess you are talking about power boats or fishing boats? While I can't profess to know most or many sailboats, those that I have seen, including ours, there really is no "chair", but even I can just sit down and steer the boat. Can I see? Not much. But hell, at 4'10", even if I stand, I can't see much.

Seriously, I guess I don't know what you're talking about. At least with our boats.

We also have a fishing boat, a ProLine 21, I think. I forget what year. I can sit in the chair, steer the boat AND see where we're going. My biggest problem? My feet don't touch the floor!

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by jsc7

Another issue I might mention is security. In aircraft we have harnesses that fasten us securely in the seat and that is for good reason. On boats I never see seats with harnesses or other security measures. If someone is standing at the helm and the boat lurches they could be thrown from the helm or dashed into a hard object, while the wheel spins out of control. It seems inadvisable to me to have a pilot standing at the wheel completely insecured.

I used to run a big beast of an ex military RIB with twin OB diesels as a chase boat. It had a motorcycle like seat with a back rest and a full harness. Small steering wheel in a car like position. All controls very accessible when strapped in.

Great fun. It would handle almost any sea state...and you needed to be strapped in or you would go flying.

Just behind helm seat was a second similar seat also with full harness for crew member.

Rescued some guests from a small island once who were trapped there by bad weather...6-8' seas crashing into what is normally the lee of the island. Run to island was down wind so pretty easy. Return trip was upwind and going to be very rough and wet in an open boat. They thanked us profusely when we picked them up. I told them not to be so quick to thank me...because we still had to make the return trip. When they disembarked back at the mainland, looking like drowned rats, they were a bit less enthusiastic. 😎

Windshield only protected helmsman and to a lesser degee the crew and we had foul weather gear...they did not.

Big scuppers in the transom quickly drained the boat.

[Lepke]

One issue with sitting, people in nice comfy chairs sometimes fall asleep with the boat on autopilot and at cruising speed. Commercial fishermen are known for this problem. I witnessed it twice. Both times a boat was coming to land from well offshore, the man on watch fell asleep and one came into Bodega Bay outer harbor (somehow made it between the head and island) and then bounced between boats until someone woke enough to stop. Nobody sank. All commercial. The other was a large dragger that ran so smoothly up on Crescent City beach, he didn't wake until the engine alarm went off.
The chair should be a little less comfortable or as on my boat uncomfortable.

[valhalla360]

Docking and tight quarters, I'll often stand (any of the boats we've owned). This is about maximizing visibility to all corners and being able to handle dock lines and such.

Once out on the water, it's normally seated comfortably at the wheel.

Seems like a reasonable compromise.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed. Furthermore, what percentage of your miles to you cover hand steering? 1%? 0.1%?

The first 100 miles... 0%. The next 400 miles after the battery bank died and the autopilot went to sleep... 100%.

I preferred the first 100 miles.

[Dave22q]

Under power seated operation is often possible. Under sail no way unless the wind is rock steady, I never seen a boat where the sheets are reachable from the captain chair. However, standing generally increases forward vision and that can mean a lot.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

Under power seated operation is often possible. Under sail no way unless the wind is rock steady, I never seen a boat where the sheets are reachable from the captain chair. However, standing generally increases forward vision and that can mean a lot.

Depends on the seating arrangement. I am pretty well always seated when sailing, but I sit either side of the wheel (usually upwind), not behind it. Much more comfortable push/pull motion to steer for a start, much easier on the back, plus I can look around the deck house rather than over it, which is a bit of a stretch, even at my 6 and a bit feet.

Matt

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Dave22q

Under power seated operation is often possible. Under sail no way unless the wind is rock steady, I never seen a boat where the sheets are reachable from the captain chair. However, standing generally increases forward vision and that can mean a lot.

a. I can reach the sheets from the helm.

b. You must know, of course, that most singlehanded race boats are set up to steer by autohelm over 90% of the time. The heading is adjusted to follow wind direction.

As for the vision thing that keeps coming up, this goes back to the OP's premise that it is a design problem. Obviously, forward vision is solvable.

And for the folks that talk about seeing the corners, I'll make the guess you have not driven a semi-trailor. You need to learn where the corners are, and survey the area before backing. Their blind spots are huge once the trailer begins to kick to one side, and neither mirrors or standing up help much. Finally, you can obviously steer while standing beside the wheel. But I remain seated. I back into my slip every time, with all of 12 inches on each side. Standing doesn't help. Sitting seems more steady.