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Old 17-02-2020, 10:49   #1
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Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

I hope this is not to generic of a question (and only loosely based in reality, see below) but:

20kt winds some where between close reach and close hauled. Sails were a jib and a double reefed main. Moved to a full beam reach. I found that adding sail increased my heel over significantly but was the only way to reach say 7kts. On the other hand to keep the boat at ~20degrees of heel required a significant fall off in speed. If I want to reach near hull speed the boat was indicating nearly 45degrees of heel, which seemed extreme.

Ok full disclosure part... This is loosely based in reality as the events described above took place in a game, not in real life. I am attempting to sail from the WA coast to Hawaii by sailing about 100 miles off the coast of the US to about 20degrees and heading east. Yes its a game but I would love to learn more. Boat in game is a 38ft "ocean cruiser" I don't remember the specifics of the dimensions of the boat.

Hope this is not to embarrassing of a question here...
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Old 17-02-2020, 10:57   #2
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

Welcome to the forum, Veloccity. I sounds as though you were too close hauled in your virtual boat.
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Old 17-02-2020, 11:00   #3
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

Hey, I have asked embarrassing questions, and gotten very helpful answers. There are very few people here who take pleasure in slamming someone.
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Old 17-02-2020, 11:00   #4
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

Reference: http://https://www.sailingworld.com/...-and-handling/

Enjoy your gaming. But also endeavor to go sailing for real.

And yes 45 degree of heeling would be considered excessive for most cruisers. Tends to spill one's drinks unless they are gimbaled.

Sailing is a lot more than attempting to squeak out a bit more VMG.
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Old 17-02-2020, 11:12   #5
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

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But also endeavor to go sailing for real.
Oh absolutely! I have been drawn to the water since I was a kid. Spent a lot of time on rivers and lakes on my family's cheap powerboat. I live in the PNW and have easy access to Puget Sound which I want to get out and explore more. Not sure if it will be this year or next but I will be getting a starting boat soon, and definitely want to SAIL.

Until then I read as much as I can and virtually sail, lessons are coming in the spring... Well maybe 1 lessons I prefer to learn by reading and doing. The game does give me real world weather conditions and distance. At least best it can. So plenty of time to read while I wait for spring.

Thanks for the reply and the info!
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Old 17-02-2020, 14:13   #6
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

That angle of heel is never going to be a quick way to get anywhere. Most boats tend to heel a little and then just tip "over the edge" and settle into a groove. You can feel where the boat wants to be when you're at the helm (if you can't, fix the rudder or get a new boat). At 45 degrees you'd only be showing 70% of the sail area to the wind. Far quicker to put a couple of reefs in and sail comfortably with much less leeway. Reefing isn't just for industrial weather
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Old 17-02-2020, 15:03   #7
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

I guess it just seems so far away from 'hull speed' with a 20degree heel, reducing sail just reduced my speed. It seems like I should be able to maintain 6kts with a 20degree heel and I just cannot seem to make that happen in the game. I assume I am doing something wrong!

Bummer part about a game too, there is no feel...

Thanks again for the responses.
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Old 18-02-2020, 04:44   #8
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, veloccity.
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Old 18-02-2020, 06:05   #9
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

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I guess it just seems so far away from 'hull speed' with a 20degree heel, reducing sail just reduced my speed. It seems like I should be able to maintain 6kts with a 20degree heel and I just cannot seem to make that happen in the game. I assume I am doing something wrong!

Bummer part about a game too, there is no feel...

Thanks again for the responses.
It's only a game. They may have the physics wrong.
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Old 18-02-2020, 07:05   #10
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

The game most likely oversimplifies the physics. Id bet they programmed it as more sail=more speed=more heel. Done.
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Old 18-02-2020, 08:16   #11
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

Every boat is a bit different in terms of how they respond to heel angle. In general, 15-20 degrees is a good target figure. Heeling beyond that and the sails are spilling air and the keel foil loses effectiveness. You might see more speed but the introduction of leeway will likely degrade your VMG.

Not sure how sophisticated the modeling of the boats is in your game but better balancing your sails might give improved results. A full jib and reefed main might not be optimal.
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Old 18-02-2020, 09:38   #12
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

I agree with Suigin. Both cruising boats I've owned, A Tayana 37 and a Kelley Peterson 44 did their best in the 15-20 degree range and often the best VMG was just over 15 degrees.

One of the reasons is that on most boats as the heel angle increases, so does the weather helm. This forces you to hold the rudder over to maintain course, until you are effectively dragging the rudder sideways though the water. Normally, when we reefed, letting the boat sit more upright, it was not only more comfortable for us and less stressful for the boat, but just as fast and sometimes faster.

I also suspect you game doesn't have the physics quite right.
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Old 18-02-2020, 10:01   #13
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

I don't see where the sails were trimmed to. As tkeithlu suggested, you may have had them trimmed in too much. There is a saying: "When in doubt, let them out" - new sailors often trim their sails in too much. An initial, simplified sail trim would be to let the sails out until they begin to luff (loose flapping at the front edge of the sail), then trim in until the luffing stops.

On a beam reach @ 20 knots you should be virtually (pun intended!) flying to Hawaii with minimal heel, certainly much less than 45 degrees.
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Old 18-02-2020, 10:27   #14
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

Theres also no shame in falling off a few degress to lessen the heel....boat speed will improve a bit. You may have to sail a little further but in the long haul get there quicker.
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Old 18-02-2020, 11:01   #15
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Re: Newbie Question Regarding Heeling Over

The program has its physics AFU. Modern flat bottom boats will greatly increase drag and slow by 20 degrees of heel. Adding more sail will cause the boat to heel more and slow even more as well as be maximum uncomfortable for the crew.

Also the fastest way to Hawaii is stay below the NP High saililng SSW initially but slowly altering heading to WSW rhumline to the islands as the winds swing to the NE trades.

Might want to find a game with better programming.
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