Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-02-2019, 10:35   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 724
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flagman101 View Post
Let me be the devils advocate here.
What is so great about the recovery?

....

Has a sailing instructor, I see a bunch of things that were not text book MOB recovery.

....

To keep this constructive and not just criticizing, can anyone point out things that would have made this MOB more effective and and faster?
And please any points made should be with an explanation has to why.
Ok, I'll bite.

What I liked:
  • There was a nice clear chorus of "man overboard" to make sure everyone was aware of the issue.
  • There was clearly someone in charge; no competing or contradictory commands.
  • The spotting was reasonable. From what I could see, the first spotter by the shrouds acted until a spotter at the stern could take over.
  • The skipper also made sure a distress call was made over the radio.
What could be improved:
  • Throwing flotation to litter the water is one of the "textbook" steps but wasn't done; a person's head in the water is easily lost. Question: of the items you have handy to throw (life-ring, cockpit cushions), how many are hi-vis or have retroreflective patches on them?
  • They manually hauled the person aboard instead of fixing a line to them. I don't think that affected the speed much, but quickly getting a line on someone would prevent the risk of having to make a second pass, or of running them down. (I.e. pull the person to the boat rather than try to place the boat right next to them.)
  • I'd prefer that someone at the stern or cockpit act as spotter from the start; someone forward may get blanketed by the sails or otherwise distracted.
What's ambiguous: I believe the RYA may teach "drop sails and motor" as the default recovery method. I also couldn't tell if they started the motor before dropping the sails. My preference, if conditions permit, would be to attempt a quick stop whilst preparing for motoring.
requiem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 10:41   #32
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 503
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

RYA Yacht Master teaches return under engine IF POSSIBLE but otherwise heave to under sail at the mob.


They even test you on a pickup with a last minute "engine is broken" so you have to sail back to them. I have known one boat that had an MOB and in their panic to get the engine on, wrapped a sheet around the prop.
B23iL23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 10:53   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Montreal
Boat: C&C 30MK1 And charter boats. IWT World keelboat instructor.
Posts: 384
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by requiem View Post
Ok, I'll bite.

What I liked:
  • There was a nice clear chorus of "man overboard" to make sure everyone was aware of the issue.
  • There was clearly someone in charge; no competing or contradictory commands.
  • The spotting was reasonable. From what I could see, the first spotter by the shrouds acted until a spotter at the stern could take over.
  • The skipper also made sure a distress call was made over the radio.
What could be improved:
  • Throwing flotation to litter the water is one of the "textbook" steps but wasn't done; a person's head in the water is easily lost. Question: of the items you have handy to throw (life-ring, cockpit cushions), how many are hi-vis or have retroreflective patches on them?
  • They manually hauled the person aboard instead of fixing a line to them. I don't think that affected the speed much, but quickly getting a line on someone would prevent the risk of having to make a second pass, or of running them down. (I.e. pull the person to the boat rather than try to place the boat right next to them.)
  • I'd prefer that someone at the stern or cockpit act as spotter from the start; someone forward may get blanketed by the sails or otherwise distracted.
What's ambiguous: I believe the RYA may teach "drop sails and motor" as the default recovery method. I also couldn't tell if they started the motor before dropping the sails. My preference, if conditions permit, would be to attempt a quick stop whilst preparing for motoring.
Thanks for your insight.
I agree with most of what you point out.
Again this is not to critique this particular crew but to use the video for education on how we can be better sailors.

I would definitely ask why no ring was thrown to the MOB.

I am not sure what they teach in Ireland for MOB, but What I teach is the figure 8 or triangle method.
Once mastered ( a few practice is enough ) it enables you to turn the boat around very fast and come back to the victim in less then a minute.
My students can achieve this performance after 2 or 3 tries.
Getting back near the victim fast is key. In less than a minute the victim is still mobil.
You then throw a catch line and tow the victim where you want to haul her out of the water.
In this case i would have used the transom.
Also the Triangle method brings back the boat near the victim and allows you to heave to.
A boat hove to will be much more stable than a boat without any sail up. Specially in strong winds. I saw 28 kts.


What I liked. No panic
Every body was doing something useful.
They got the victim back
The victim was brought down below to get warm.

What could have been better
Getting back near the victim is my main objection here.
Took way too long. This would have been much harder at night.
The boat was windward to the MOB.
This could result in the boat hitting the victim after a wave lift it up.
Victim should have bee to windward.

What I did not like
Too many crew on board. They where stepping over each other.
Lots of loose lines on deck. That is what cause the MOB in the first place.
Lowering the jib...what happened there. This could have been disastrous if the engine was engaged. Sheet or else could foul the propeller.
Has they were getting back to the victim, no planning was made to actually haul out the MOB. They relied on power of the numbers. The time to get back to the victim should have been used to prep for recovery.

Anybody know the Triangle method?
Flagman101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 11:59   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Somewhere in the North Atlantic
Boat: Passport 40
Posts: 77
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

I would like to highlight another thread from a couple days ago that also detailed a MOB incident. There are many similarities between these two MOB events - a performance boat, racing crew, and blustery conditions - but unfortunately the end result was fatal for the Chicago incident.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ce-214567.html

One of the largest differences between these two situations is that the Windjammer Dublin crew spent four minutes taking down the sails, motored back to the victim, and performed a recovery in one shot. The T52 crew performed a crash tack and attempted to retrieve the MOB two times under sail before running him over on the third retrieval attempt.

Obviously, there are a lot of other differences between these two incidents (the malfunction of an inflatable lifejacket played a very important role in the Chicago incident). But before we all criticize the Windjammer crew for taking down their sails, I encourage you to read the other thread and consider how this situation could have ended differently.

It took over a minute for the Windjammer crew to retrieve the MOB once they returned to her. Imagine trying to hold station with the jib wrapped around the forestay and the mainsail flogging. For this crew, on this boat, I believe they acted appropriately.

With that said, there is always room for improvement. I think the black dinghy lifejackets were not a good choice for the conditions. An MOB pole, Danbuoy, or life ring deployed immediately after she fell overboard would have been prudent. And using a LifeSling to winch the victim back aboard using a halyard may have been more controlled than motoring alongside and using the brute strength of the crew.
Mediator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 12:23   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Montreal
Boat: C&C 30MK1 And charter boats. IWT World keelboat instructor.
Posts: 384
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

That is why you need to heave to next to the MOB. Sails are then kept under control.
Or can be taken down when nearing the MOB.
Flagman101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 12:26   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 724
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flagman101 View Post
Anybody know the Triangle method?
Not by that name, no. I believe the windward/leeward recovery preference is also a regionalism, with Canada preferring the windward side and US Sailing teaching the leeward.

I mentioned the quickstop, but as Mediator notes conditions aren't always appropriate. I'm not familiar with a TP52, but based on the report my read is that many of the approaches I might try in a smaller cruising boat (e.g. quick stop or heaving-to) wouldn't be possible (i.e. it'd be asking for a knock-down or losing the rig). In that situation my preference would be to drop the sails, or at least do a figure-8 style return while lowering the jib and getting the motor started.

Given the confusion, asking the other boat to attempt the pickup either first or after the jib got wrapped might have been wise. Often the best thing to do in an emergency is to pause for a deep breath; the only thing that requires instant action is getting flotation out and a spotter pointing (i.e. marking the spot).
requiem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 12:41   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 503
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

One of the problems with a TP52 is the powerful sailplan. I would think it's very difficult to dial it down in power as you approach the casualty, and even if you do, it would tend to accelerate with the slightest puff.


If I was driving a TP52, I would drop the main after you start your leg back to the mob. That will kill the speed and allow you to close with the MOB at slow speed.
B23iL23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 14:34   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Montreal
Boat: C&C 30MK1 And charter boats. IWT World keelboat instructor.
Posts: 384
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

In Canada the MOB technic is the triangle or figure 8
Basically when you have a MOB you put the boat on a beam reach for about 10 boat lengths. ( I count to 10 . One thousand one, one thousand two )
At 10 you chicken jibe. It's a 270' tack. This has not to have to jibe.
You get the boat on a broad reach. Again count to 10. Or if the boat is very fast keep going until the MOB is at a 90' angle to the boat. Then head up wind straight for the MOB. The boat should pretty much stop right next to the MOB. You should be in irons or what i like to is heave too. This way the boat stops and stays put. No load luffing sails or sheets flapping in the wind.
Flagman101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 15:19   #39
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 724
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flagman101 View Post
In Canada the MOB technic is the triangle or figure 8
Ah, I missed that those were the same technique.

Have you by any chance read over the report from the 2005 testing on SF Bay?
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content..._Symposium.pdf
requiem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28-02-2019, 16:07   #40
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Montreal
Boat: C&C 30MK1 And charter boats. IWT World keelboat instructor.
Posts: 384
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by requiem View Post
Ah, I missed that those were the same technique.

Have you by any chance read over the report from the 2005 testing on SF Bay?
https://www.ussailing.org/wp-content..._Symposium.pdf
Nice report.
Quick Stop and Figure 8 seem to be most effective.
Fast return looks a lot like the figure 8 Method.
Also I note that they do not recommend or test dosing the sails and returning to the victim. They do say it's possible to do so.

In any case it is very important to practice these maneuvers. And do it in strong weather.
I find that it's actually easier to do it right when you have a nice strong wind.
The boat is much faster and reactive.

I do have reservations about the quick stop. A gibe could be dangerous.
Flagman101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2019, 15:01   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Southport CT
Boat: Sabre 402
Posts: 2,153
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flagman101 View Post
Nice report.
Quick Stop and Figure 8 seem to be most effective.
Fast return looks a lot like the figure 8 Method.
Also I note that they do not recommend or test dosing the sails and returning to the victim. They do say it's possible to do so.

In any case it is very important to practice these maneuvers. And do it in strong weather.
I find that it's actually easier to do it right when you have a nice strong wind.
The boat is much faster and reactive.

I do have reservations about the quick stop. A gibe could be dangerous.
Quick-stop calls for a TACK, not a gybe, precisely because a gybe could be dangerous. We practiced this with the spinnaker up on our J/36 in 18 knots of wind (going 9 knots), and tacked. The boat stopped sailing away from the "victim" (a cushion I had thrown overboard) immediately. We were back at the cushion in 45 seconds. This was with a crew of Jr. sailors who were used to dinghies, not cruising boats. I am a fan ever since.
psk125 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2019, 13:15   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 5,675
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by requiem View Post
I

For hypothermia, the first rule is gentle handling (to reduce cardiac risks) and ideally keeping them horizontal. The "hypowrap" or burrito is basic first aid: strip wet clothes and bundle the person into sleeping bags or blankets. (Example: atop a sleeping bag or other padding, place them inside another sleeping bag, add another on top, and wrap the whole thing in an emergency blanket.) Hot water bottles (wrap to avoid burns) can also be added at hands and feet, but the important part is preventing further heat loss. The benefits of adding a warm body are debatable.
I have to take issue with adding hot water bottles to the hands and feet. From the Mayo Clinic:

Use warm, dry compresses. Use a first-aid warm compress (a plastic fluid-filled bag that warms up when squeezed) or a makeshift compress of warm water in a plastic bottle or a dryer-warmed towel. Apply a compress only to the neck, chest wall or groin.

Don't apply a warm compress to the arms or legs. Heat applied to the arms and legs forces cold blood back toward the heart, lungs and brain, causing the core body temperature to drop. This can be fatal.

donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2019, 22:21   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 724
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
I have to take issue with adding hot water bottles to the hands and feet. From the Mayo Clinic:

Use warm, dry compresses. Use a first-aid warm compress (a plastic fluid-filled bag that warms up when squeezed) or a makeshift compress of warm water in a plastic bottle or a dryer-warmed towel. Apply a compress only to the neck, chest wall or groin.

Don't apply a warm compress to the arms or legs. Heat applied to the arms and legs forces cold blood back toward the heart, lungs and brain, causing the core body temperature to drop. This can be fatal.

Thanks for calling that out! The goal is always to rewarm the core and as they mention, as the limbs warm the blood vessels will dilate, meaning more cold/acidic blood reaching the core, and a drop in volume as there's more space for blood to fill. Obviously, this can be problematic.

When circumstances permit, severe cases of hypothermia call for more... invasive rewarming, such as using heated IV fluids. On a boat you're less likely to have such rewarming options, but hopefully you've recovered the person before they've been out too long and simply wrapping them is sufficient. (Note that adding something absorbant as a diaper is probably wise.)

The "have them hold a hot water bottle on their chest, and put another at their feet" came from the NOLS wilderness first aid, and likely anticipates snow/ice as an environmental hazard. (I.e. warding against frostbitten toes.) The palms and soles are also interesting in that they are almost like radiators if you want to heat/chill blood. To be safe, save it for only mild cases.

There's a nice long article that's more applicable to boats here:
https://gcaptain.com/truth-cold-water-recovery/

(Not a doctor, just going from a bunch of wilderness first aid training.)
requiem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2019, 00:58   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Cruz
Boat: Boatless Again
Posts: 5,675
Re: MOB - Windjammer Dublin bay 21st Jan 2019

I just took the online Safety at Sea Course from US sailing, and the part that was most new and useful to me was the section on Cold Water immersion and the 1-10-1 rule. It should be understood by everyone who goes boating in waters cooler than 70 degrees.
donradcliffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mob, overboard, wind

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Opencpn Dokuwiki Migration -MOB- Help Needed!!! MOB rgleason OpenCPN 87 20-12-2016 11:12
For Sale: McMurdo Guardian MOB System TWO MOB watches and Receiver petedd Classifieds Archive 1 26-09-2015 16:31
Gallic Pride takes a hit in Dublin Bay goboatingnow Multihull Sailboats 5 24-06-2013 05:57
Newbie sailing from Vancouver, BC to Dublin, Ireland. AidanP Meets & Greets 4 31-03-2011 11:36
Uh-Oh...Windjammer in trouble... Rangiroo Flotsam & Sailing Miscellany 1 03-10-2007 16:23

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.