Lee Helm Scare

[Time2Go]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

You could rig a jib downhaul, too.

Rigging a small sailboat, from Pat Royce's Sailing Illustrated. Great little book.

Beat me to it
I have s downhaul on my daysailer's job
brought back to the cockpit
works great to douse the sail
while sailing up to the dock

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Edit: Stu, you must type faster than I do!

That is my "go to" photo of that book. This comes up all the time. I wish people would still read books!

[jeepbluetj]

So I copied this from Wikipedia:

The root cause of lee helm is when the center of pressure exerted by the wind on the sails falls too far forward of the center of resistance of the hull—the natural point at which the hull tries to pivot. This tends to push the bow of the boat away from the wind.

What that oversimplifies to is "too much jib." Which I think you correctly identified. But I read the problem as you were trying to tack away from a lee shore, and too much lee helm was there to tack over.

My suggestion would be to depower the jib and/or power up the main. Quickest way to do that is loosen the jib sheet and let it flog a bit. Make sure you keep some power in the main and you should be able to tack over. Also make sure your making speed - i.e. the more water passing over the rudder the better control you will have. Too slow and there's no way to tack. So another thing to think about in that situation is to head down a bit to build up some speed before you attempt the tack. If you've got the rudder hard over trying to tack it's likely stalled and you're not gonna go very fast anyway.


Running to drop is a great way to do it, but only if you had the room - the lee shore may have prevented that.

Oversimplified: Lee or Weather helm is caused by the center of force upon the sails being different then the point on which the boat pivots on (typically the centerboard). Lee? too much jib/not enough main. Weather? Too much main/not enough jib. Many (most?) sloop rigged boats have a bit of weather helm with full sail and reasonable trim. If you have lee helm all the time, you may want to examine your main trim too. (Unless lee helm is a typical characteristic of the boat)

[atmartin]

Originally Posted by scarlet

so you reef the main, while it is out? I'm not sure how you would do that since the boom is out over the water. you wouldn't be able to reach the reefing point... right? and wouldn't it still be under load? can you explain further?

If you have your reef lines set up, you don't need to go outboard, just to the mast. An example setup:



You need a topping lift to do this without dropping the boom.

As others have said, this sounds like a boat handling issue, rather than lee helm.

[Knotical]

This is a very informative thread for me, would like to follow along.

In our 3 years of summer daysailing (read: not an expert), we have come across occasional gusts over 25 knts which scared the hell out of us. I have never had a problem going into irons and slowing down but the 1st thing I do to depower is release the mainsheet. General consensus here is to drop the jib and the reasons make sense, however I fear getting injured while releasing the jibsheet, it is under so much power!

[Connemara]

Several people have suggested this and I think it's the best idea.... turn onto a broad reach and let the mainsheet out. You do have to be careful not to gybe accidentally, but then you will be moving fairly smoothly, Then you can go forward and drop the now-flapping jib safely.

Of course, that depends on having searoom to leeward and you were on a small lake.

Had a similar experience while racing a few years back... on port tack heading for the mark when the wind swapped 180 degrees and doubled in strength to about 20 knots. I tried to heave to but couldn't get the bow through the wind. In the process the gennie sheets got badly tangled and the sail wrapped partly around the forestay

So I turned away from the wind and ran, which calmed things down enough for a stalwart crewman to crawl forward and untangle the sheets and sail.

But I had about 25 miles of searoom on my lee. If the conditions had been reversed, I would have had about a quarter of a mile and probably would have been completely screwed.

Connemara

[Fiveslide]

Originally Posted by Connemara

.

Of course, that depends on having searoom to leeward and you were on a small lake.

No sea room on a lake usually isn't the end of the world. Centerboard boat? Putting it it on a sandy or muddy shoreline is an option. If running downwind, I turn parallel to the shore several meters away, let the sheets loose and drift to shore. Sails will flap but come down easily when you're steadied on the shore.

If I'm caught out and can't safely reef, putting an over-canvassed, under-ballasted boat on the lake shore might be my first choice. Is there going to be another boat out there able to help me if I capsize or get dumped overboard fighting to beat upwind away from a lee shore?

Lee shore on a lake can be another way out of trouble for a cb boat, it has been for me and mine.

[bensolomon]

Was it not possible to let the jib sheet out or off the winch? You could have sheeted in the main, and jib, and eased off then gybed into a heave to position. Then, with the jib backwinding the main, you could have Reefed, or just wait the the blast to pass. I used to sail a 15 foot Chrysler mutineer on Lake George, NY. This type of "katabatic" wind would happen frequently. I now have a 37.5 Hunter legend which is a bit tender, as well. Sometimes, you have to sail the storm, or wind, so to speak, rather than the predetermined point of sail.

[tbodine88]

Originally Posted by scarlet

5. at this point, I ran out of options. I had my husband get us as close to the wind as we could, and I crawled forward, and released the jib, and pulled it down by hand. This was the most dangerous thing I have ever done on a sailboat. Wind gusts knocking the boat over... the released Jib violently flapping around, including the lines. I was hanging on for dear life. I was scared, but I didn't know what else to do.
6. once the jib was down, we were able to get into irons so that I could drop the main safely.

I think you did the right thing under the circumstances. An idea which might help in the future is to add another line running from the top of the jib to a block on the deck then back to the cockpit that would allow you to pull it down quickly when such events happen.

Happy sailing

[RoryD]

A very experinced sailor once told me “When all else fails, let everything go”. Something similar happened to me once and letting everything go solved the problem.

[thomm225]

This is why it's so important to race as a beginner, and as the Skipper.

I have raced many times when I wouldn't normally sail at all when I was first learning, but since I had paid my $15.00 or whatever it was for the entry fee, I thought I had to go ahead and race.

This is how you learn especially when you have the same problem as the OP, and on top of that, there are boats on both sides of you wondering what's the problem if you get in his same situation which to them (experienced racers) isn't really a problem at all.

[catsketcher]

I would caution gybing in heavy winds as a beginner - it can be very forceful and most sailors avoid gybing in windy conditions. I would urge the OP to develop some other skills.

One is weather awareness - I have never been hit by a blow I didn't know was coming. Always watch the other boats on the water, and always feel the air. In the Australian East coast we have cool and "wetter" breezes off the ocean - the noreasters through to southerlies and drier winds - our westeries. Often I have been out sailing and felt a fleeting change in temperature and humfidity which has then gone away again. It is the harbinger of a change and this gets me standing up and looking all around. I watch for the gusts travelling on the water. The wind in the gusts is about the same direction as the gust travel - so keep a watch out (old racer talking).

Also it seems as though the boat could be prepared better next time. Roller furling or tack line would help but small boats should sail with reef lines in unless you know the weather is going to be fine. Tucking in a reef is hard enough without having to reeve lines. It may look silly to have the lines in in light winds but leaving reef lines in permanently is good insurance.

As to the sailing technique - I would also urge the OP to learn to sail without using a rudder. Lee helm is caused by too little main pressure. Easing off all sheets and then trying to get the boat turn does not work in heavy or light winds. I do not like flogging sails and would not recommend dumping sheets - keep a little sheet on so that the sail does not flog. Trim the main on only slightly to get the boat to head up and keep sheeting in as the boat heads up. It is fine to have it 90% luffing. Same with the jib, but don't let them flog or bad things like broken goosenecks and sheet balls can happen. Also a jib sheeted on is much safer to deal with than a flogging one.

One trick on the main can be to dump all vang. This can make the boat easier to sail until you get everything sorted out. Lots of vang can make the boom shake around some more.

cheers

Phil

[sec906]

Originally Posted by scarlet

... Normally we try to round up into the wind, but the boat wouldn't round up, even though we had the tiller hard over. We tried not to panic... I knew what was wrong, our sails were over powered.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you had the jib backed (pulled tight on the wrong side). With the sudden wind shift and your panic, maybe you were trimming the wrong jib sheet. I think that would explain all of your symptoms.

Are you familiar with the heave-to maneuver? If not, it's something you'll want to learn about. I think that would have helped you resolve your situation. But if you did it without releasing the mainsail, I'd expect exactly the situation you describe.

[sunshineslacker]

I have to admit I like this form for the good ideas, I almost always sail with a reef, i like to sail on the bottom and have been caught a few times in unexpected gusts. I find in my area wind speed forecasts are rarely right, wind direction is hard enough. Scaring yourself stops complancy.

[AKA-None]

What no one suggested was to watch the water around you as you can often see the wind approaching as a disturbance on the surface.