Lazy Bag as storm main sail

[JPonHudson]

There is something that I have been pondering...does it make any sense to get a main with the third reef if you already have lazy Bag (stack pack or whatever they are called). Am I crazy to think that in a really windy condition the bag itself would propel the boat as if you had a tiny main? In other words when going under bare poles your poles are never bare with all the canvas alone the boom. Just wandering what you think.

[CaptainRivet]

That highly depends on your boat and the sail plan.
If you are uncanavased as eg nearly all condo cats nowadays 2 reefs are mostly enough as the 2nd reef is very long suitable before you reach bare pole conditions with your lazybag.
Opposite if you have a well canvased or even overcanvased performance vessel then a 3rd reef is a must as the gap between 2nd reef and bare pole condition is huge. My buddy boat a dufour 44 performance (ex regatta boat) he even put reef 2 deeper at 2.3 and the 3rd reef is actually a 3.5 one has his mast is 1,3m longer and therefor more sail area as standard and reefs needed to be deeper to depower it accordingly. He was thinking of 4 reefs but had not enough clutch and line spaces anymore so reefs where done deeper then normal.

[barnakiel]

I think the concept is valid. However I would opt in a sailmaker to build a proto, then test it.


For it is not just the sail area, but also how it is placed vs. the LC and how it trims and how it stands to the elements.


A storm (say things beyond 10B) will easily shatter sunbrela / acrylic covers beyond any use.


But the concept is good and worth developing. Imho.


b.

[SailingHarmonie]

The answer is No.

A sail has shape. It generates lift. Your sail cover has no useful aerodynamic shape. It will only generate drag. Usable, I guess, for sailing downwind, but that’s about it. Absolutely useless for something as critical as clawing off a lee shore.

Those permanently fixed covers are much more of a hinderance that a help in survival conditions when windage is your enemy.

[Jim Cate]

^^^^

Beat me to it SH! Absolutely correct IMO.

Jim

[JPA Cate]

It is that you can trim the tripled reefed mainsail. Nobody I know can trip a sail bag.

The other thing is, if you're out there a long way from shore, you probably want to head in the preferred direction. You need to direct progress, at whatever boat speed you deem appropriate.

Ann

[Benz]

Another thing is, by the time things get to running under bare poles, you want the least windage possible. And running means just that: all you can do is steer downwind so that you don't broach.
Any progress in any other direction is going to require sails that can...sail.
With a reefed staysail and my storm try'sl, I can put the wind forward of the beam and do close to hull speed.

[barnakiel]

imho


It can be done. But the bag must be designed for this.


Anything works. But not all things work equally well. Horses courses.


b.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

imho


It can be done. But the bag must be designed for this.


Anything works. But not all things work equally well. Horses courses.


b.

Designed for it? How do you design a bag--full of a furled sail--to have an airfoil shape?

No, it can not be done.

[svPersévérance]

Sail makers tend to steer people away from a 3rd reef because if the wind is that strong you'll stretch out your sail. I know sailors who protect their main by flying a storms'l above 30 knots.

[JPonHudson]

Thank you everyone. I guess I didn't phrase my question properly yet I got my answers. It looks like it makes sense to go from 2nd reef to trysail. I have a 150 Genoa on a furler that I could roll up and set a gale sail over it. All of it is just in case I head off shore at some point...next season it will be just coastal cruising and learning the boat.

[El Pinguino]

Hmmm, I've never had a sailmaker question my desire for a 3rd reef ( now on my 3rd main on my current Yacht), and I do use the third reef rather a lot.
I also run down hill under just under my #3 storm jib quite often as well.. it keeps the centre of effort well frd and reduces - to zero - the desire to broach.

I had a trysail on my previous boat but never used it in anger. That boat was aft cockpit no dodger so you could drop the boom and set the trysail in the traditional manner.
Current boat with centre cockpit? No way.
Plus the drama of setting it - even if you have a separate track for it - I have better things to do with my time when everything is turning to custard.

A 'gale sail' over your furler? You need an inner forestay so you can bring the centre of effort of your headsail down and aft.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

A 'gale sail' over your furler? You need an inner forestay so you can bring the centre of effort of your headsail down and aft.

We have a "gale sail" that we have never flown in anger. We've only tried it just to make sure it can be done if needed.

Why do you feel this is a non-starter? Seems to me that for those of us that do not have an inner or baby forestay (and no way to rig one) that this is a potential answer

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by svPersévérance

Sail makers tend to steer people away from a 3rd reef because if the wind is that strong you'll stretch out your sail. I know sailors who protect their main by flying a storms'l above 30 knots.

They might discourage you from adding a third reef to an existing sail, but a properly designed sail of appropriate cloth weight has zero difficulty holding a third reef when properly set.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Designed for it? How do you design a bag--full of a furled sail--to have an airfoil shape?

No, it can not be done.

Let us dream a moment. Dreaming is the start of all human invention.



1) A foil is only required from beat to beam reach. Beyond, you sail by drag, not lift. Note in many cases, especially small craft, the survival tactics is to run, not to fore reach.


2) Only the lower part of the bag is filled with the sail. Extensions can be folded out to make a bag a "sail". Think of AC bag mains.


I bet this solution would be at least 50% effective as the real thing. And 100% better than no solution.



Sure thing. Such a bagsail will never perform as well as a small purpose built storm sail - on a reach.


Horses for the courses. We all wish for the best things we could get, but we often live by the things we have.


barnakiel