Jordan Series Drogue vs Paratech Sea Anchor

[smackdaddy]

Heh-heh, dude I sail on a lake! Thus far I've only had to deal with 3' rollers from passing stinkpots. So, I've been very well protected the past 2 years I've been learning to sail. Lots of big wind - but no sea state (i.e. - no sea at all).

That said, I've always been very interested in heavy weather sailing. Just learning and prepping for when I actually do get out in the salt.

I have, however, dragged my kids around behind the Smacktanic on a ski-rope. It was hard to convince them to deploy in the face of those wakes though and I didn't see a huge speed drop or improved stability. Just my wife yelling at me.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

Personally, I'll take first-hand accounts any day over marketing material.

You might want to review Hal Roth's book I mentioned earlier. He goes into first hand accounts of using JSD a lot, if I recall correctly.

I agree, retrieval is the issue. That and attachment to the stern.

[SaltyMonkey]

A lake could be an ideal place to at least test out these devices.

(Hal Roth - gad I am so sick and tired of Hal Roth)

[smackdaddy]

I've read several of the HWS books (Coles, Pardey, Roth) as well as the "Fasnet Force 10", "Fatal Storm", "Desparate Voyage", etc. And I've watched most of the HWS DVDs out there as well.

Just soaking it all up so I'll have some inkling of what to do when the crap hits the fan. Of course, if it comes down to having to eat my shoes and drink motor oil like Caldwell did...I'll might prefer sinking.

[SaltyMonkey]

If there's one thing I've learned over time - don't ever believe everything you read, especially coming from a sailor

[ConradG]

Wow. Seems like a hot discussion.. For those who say that they should somehow be able to avoid situations that require survival tactics, well I hope they can, but it seems being prepared for the event is what this is about. Of course we all wish to avoid such things, but...

I too have never deployed either and only have the bennefit of reading accounts. However, it seems that heaving to with a steadying storm tri and a sea anchor to stop forward motion and slow leeway would produce a much more favorable and safe motion to running off with a drogue, especially if it gets to the point of bare poles. I am speaking of Pardey style, 40-50 degrees off the wind with no forward motion and the protection (from breakers) of the boats slick. I don't imagine either would be great fun but wouldn't the drogue be esentially the same as riding bow to on a sea anchor? Sounds to me to be a situation where you would want to be "below and strapped in" with a helmet on! Something I would only want to try if I lost the sea anchor to chafe... Also seems that running with (asuming you have the sea room) has the potential to keep you in the worst of it longer even if you are slowed to 4 kts or so.

If you haven't read it yet give Storm Tactics by Lin and Larry Pardey a read. Certainly alot on the subject.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by ConradG

If you haven't read it yet give Storm Tactics by Lin and Larry Pardey a read. Certainly alot on the subject.

The majority of experienced folks we know disagree with the Pardey's assertion that a para-anchor is THE ultimate tactic. Most of us believe it is one of several tactics you should be aware of, but that it is about last on the list for most of us to try except for some very special situations. And honestly I don't think even the Pardey's actually believe the para-anchor is the "be all-end all" tactic, because in their horn rounding, when they got in heavy weather, they in fact never deployed their para-anchor. They instead forereached under trysail. My understanding is that they have never deployeed the sea-anchor on their current boat in anger (in an actual storm, not just for practice). I believe they only actually used the para-anchor on their previous boat. But I could be mistaken about this but they have certaintly not used it very much . . . which makes sense because as I said several posts back, storm force winds are in fact not very common.

We were down there when they were. They are friends, so this is a friendly disagreement The Pardey's boat is rather special and not typical - small, short and fat hull, long shallow keel with barn door rudder, no furling sail (which effects the windage and balance alot) . . . it apparently does not steer very well down wind in waves, but does heave-to very well. All these things make their technique partciularily more useful for them than for most boats.

If you want to read the counter argument, and you are tired of Roth, you can read FAQ 9 & 9A on Seamanship . Its quite pointed on this subject.

On drogues . . . one mistake that we see people make is to take down too much sail, and not realize you need to keep just the right amount of sail up. You need to be pulling on the drogue, and not just wallowing around. If you have too little sail are are just wallowing at the end of the rode you can easily get knocked sideways. The only 'failure' of a series drogue deployment I am aware of was a 48'er between South Georgia and Cape Town. He got knocked down several times while the drogues was out, damaged the rig and abandoned ship. He was under bare poles, and my take was that he might have been better with a small storm jib up to stabilize the boat. In This case bare poles might well have been appropriate for the worst of the storm but as it abated (still 40 gusting 50) and the waves were still big, getting a small area of sail up would have prevented the boat getting knocked around.

This is just a reminder that you need to stay in touch with the conditions and how the boat feels and make adjustments as a storm develops. Sitting below until it all goes away is a poor strategy.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

If there's one thing I've learned over time - don't ever believe everything you read, especially coming from a sailor

You mean like you never believe a fisherman when he tells how big the one was that got away.

In this case I think reading about the experiences of other sailors may be the best option since very few of us have been in situations where some sort of drogue or anchor was needed. The only other option is to intentionally go out into a survival storm to test the different options. Don't think I will volunteer for that job.

Not saying you should not analyze what you read but I think most of what I have read was reported honestly and accurately from the writers experience.

[smackdaddy]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

This is just a reminder that you need to stay in touch with the conditions and how the boat feels and make adjustments as a storm develops. Sitting below until it all goes away is a poor strategy.

+1. This is a great point - and one I haven't seen discussed before. Thanks dude.

And, skip, to your point, I think the key is to deploy whatever tactics you're going to use in the strongest conditions you feel you can safely go out in. This gives you an idea of what you'll be dealing with. My hunch is that the mistake people make is never practicing with this stuff because it's a lot of hassle - and they feel that the conditions are never enough to warrant it until it's too late.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by skipmac

...
Not saying you should not analyze what you read but I think most of what I have read was reported honestly and accurately from the writers experience...

I disagree. Writers ALL have a natural ability to embellish the truth. They cannot help it. You need more than one POV of the situation. Simple history. Without that, yo read through the BS, you need to either blow it off or experiment. With all these "tools", you need to go try them out on your boat in manageable conditions. See how they deploy. See what issues they present. You don't need to be in survival conditions to educate yourselves.

Pardey - with respect to their boat - exactly. Technique may not work for lighter displacement, spades, larger, or boats that don't hold to weather as such , and so on. Tried to point that out earlier. Worked for me and my boat. May not work for my next one.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

The only 'failure' of a series drogue deployment I am aware of was a 48'er between South Georgia and Cape Town. He got knocked down several times while the drogues was out, damaged the rig and abandoned ship. He was under bare poles, and my take was that he might have been better with a small storm jib up to stabilize the boat. In This case bare poles might well have been appropriate for the worst of the storm but as it abated (still 40 gusting 50) and the waves were still big, getting a small area of sail up would have prevented the boat getting knocked around.

Good information, Evans, thanks. Any thoughts on the possibility that this JSD did not have enough cones, so it was undersized for the size or displacement? I.e., not enough braking effect.

Quite interesting how their troubles started after the worst of the storm. That says something. I can see how you reached your conclusion. Makes sense to me.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

I disagree. Writers ALL have a natural ability to embellish the truth. They cannot help it. .

LOL.


We were at some 2,000 year old library and it said all the books were burnt as some boss guy thought they were all bulltwaddle.
Nic was amazed!
So I tried to think of all the times in history that some person with power but no brain decided everything in books was lies and they all ought be burnt.

Any mathematician would have a great example

Mark

[SaltyMonkey]

That doesn't mean it doesn't make great fiction! Put away your lighter.

Of course there is the great library of Alex to look at for political destruction.

[Seahunter]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

On drogues . . . one mistake that we see people make is to take down too much sail, and not realize you need to keep just the right amount of sail up. You need to be pulling on the drogue, and not just wallowing around....

This is key; it also applies to the chute or things get messed up in a hurry. The drogue should also be set well astern, with at least 300' of rode. This will balance the boat well in breaking seas, especially if they are following. I like to put it at least 3 sets behind me; if the point is wrong I power up. This softens up the ride by preventing surfing and can be easily adjusted to either quarter as needed. Used in this way they also make a great emergency tiller.
There's a lot of "sea anchors" on the market right now but the technique was in use by the Chinese at least 1000 years ago. What everyone is calling the Pardey version has been used for at least 300 years to which they freely admit and is a proven method. However, this is a learned technique that requires practice. If you're not prepared to practice in at least 30Kn winds and get it down right; don't carry a sea anchor. If you keep it in the bag somewhere in the bilge disassembled; don't carry a sea anchor. The key to the sea anchor, as opposed to the drogue is the "heave to" and drift aspect; where the drift is your angular moment to the relative SOG. As with any heave to, balance is key; so if you need a tri-sail, use it and if the blow on the forestay is enough, don't.
As we know the phrase "under no circumstance" should not be in the vocabulary of sailors; however with safety being of primary concern and one's comfort level coming a distant second, knowledge is as important as being prepared.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Hiracer

Good information, Evans, thanks. Any thoughts on the possibility that this JSD did not have enough cones, so it was undersized for the size or displacement? I.e., not enough braking effect.
.

I asked and they had the same number of cones as we do. They are the same length but probably 20-25% heavier.

I can't really comment if that was enough cones for 'proper' braking effect. I am getting this story only second hand, and we ourselves have only 'practice' experience with the series drogue effect. But there was no mention of 'going too fast' or 'surfing' or 'broaching', it was all about getting knocked around too much.

My 'CSI' reconstruction of events leads me to believe that the wind speed was too low and the waves too steep for bare poles and he needed some more sail and some more speed to stabilize the boat and keep in phase with the waves. I don't know if it would be correct, hard to know without being there, but I could almost argue that there was too much braking force and that under bare poles he would have been better off with a regular single element drogue going a bit faster.

I was surprised by the situation/events, as I had not expected this would be a possible failure mode when using a series drogue, and it is a unique event. No-one else has reported anything like this particular event.